Belts like water.

[KyleShort]

From a semi-outsiders perspective it seems like dan rankings flow like water in the bujinkan. I personally know members who have gone up from 4 to 7 dan rankings in the last four years...out of respect I won't name names but I am sure that with a little research you can all locate individuals like this...note that I have also known members who have been at 2nd degree for 8 years or so and don't look like they are going up. In addition, there are a number of learn from the comfort of your own home courses out there via VHS/DVD.

Personally, I don't know what dan rankings mean in the bujinkan...as they differ from system to system, and this "flow" may be very appropriate for the this organization...thus I am not claiming that this is a bad thing per se...

However in light of some recent posts on these boards, I have to wonder something...does the ranking system in the Bujinkan create mistrust and malice amongst members...is there a lot of..."sure he is a Godan but he tested and trained through DVD..." or "yeah he got his 7th degree, but come on, it only took him 6 years so it is a little suspect..."

To me it seems like some people are respected while others are not...and some people are generally recognized as deserving their rank, while others are considered to be ranked higher than their skills/contributions...is this a big problem in the Bujinkan?

 

[Kreth]

The first thing to consider is the difference between how rank is perceived in Japan and the West (especially in the US). In Japan, rank is awarded to a promising student, and he/she is then expected to live up to that rank. Here, rank is seen as a milestone, something that one has mastered.
To add to the confusion, Hatsumi sensei has been known to award ranks for such things as hosting a Tai Kai, or real-life experience. In addition, there are people who go to Japan specifically to collect their next rank, as if it were some type of budo safari.
Personally, I've come to judge people based on their skill, rather than their rank.

Jeff

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Ben Cole said it once and no one has said it better since: "Hatsumi sensei will gladly give you the rope you need to hang yourself with."

At my first training with Nagato sensei in Japan, he told me I could tell my instructor that I had Nagato sensei's recommendation for new rank. Looking back on it now, however, I'm wondering if it wasn't ment as a very Japanese insult. :shrug: At that particular time I had had very little sleep, and apparently got sloppy somehow because people kept hitting me for no apparent reason whatsoever. I highly doubt that went unnoticed...on the other hand, he did tell me I had his recommendation on three separate occasions...:idunno:

 

[Don Roley]

Rank really does not mean anything in the Bujinkan. You can't use it as a measure of skill- since there are many skills one could have. And a seventh dan can't boss around a fifth dan. So there really is no need to make a big deal over rank, unless you want to impress others.

Well, I dislike the idea of trying to impress others. It is not what I think budo should be about. I do not ask other people their rank and I do not mention mine. In fact, a while back I was asked what rank I was by another member of MartialTalk and I refused. I dislike people that try to impress others with their high rank and I dislike people that try to impress others by being low ranked, but a damn good low rank. In both cases there is no impact on skill and the only reason to accept or not accept rank is based on trying to impress others. I dislike both attitudes, because they really are all about the same thing, and refuse to even talk about rank.

Hatsumi has set up a system where people cannot expect people to be impressed with their rank. Rank is a bit of a joke and you can't impress many people with it. So if you want to impress people, you should not study in the Bujinkan. A few people that really care about impressing others with their rank have already left the Bujinkan. I think there may be some method to Hatsumi's madness in the matter.

 

[Kizaru]

From my perspective, I see rank in the Bujinkan as an exercise in "ukemi".

How well do you receive a compliment?

How well do you receive an insult?

How well do you receive a challenge?

How well do you receive an attack you can't "see"?

Someone once said, "the root of the martial path is deception".

:asian:

 

[DWeidman]

Personally, I've come to judge people based on their skill, rather than their rank.

Jeff

... which can't be done online... Which is why everyone's opinion SHOULD come with a huge grain of salt.

...unless you know the person - or know someone who knows the person and vouches for them.

I would be interested to know if Rank means something in other arts. It seems there is always going to be a split between knowledge / experience / skill. Any system that favors one will always have a detractor to the others...

-Daniel

 

[KyleShort]

Nimravus I love that Ben Cole quote! In light of that, one could even see the wisdom of making rank easy and/or meaningless in ways...instituting a system of this nature would seem to put an emphasis on skill for those who want it, while offering meaningless posturing for those who need it.

Don,

That's great insight and helps me understand things a bit. I also agree about rank in general as I am not a fan of rank at all. Primarily because there is no consistency...within individual arts, and the community as a whole...if there was I might appreciate it more =(

 

[Mountain Kusa]

Everything that Don has said above is correct. Ed Martin always says that this art does not fit neatly in a box, therefore, there are many paths for one to travel. In my oppinion, there is much to learn, and that each of us gets more or less from what we are working on than someone else. I think it is fruitless to compare yourself to someone else. Each have walked different paths, and gotten different things from that path, therefore, no two paths are the same.

I see allot of bickering about who is better, who sucks, who to and not to train with, I think it is all pointless. The only point I see is that most i see run their mouths without ever proving it on the mat in any serious fights. It all then boils down to respect. If the person is a good person and tries to help those around him/her to understand this art better, then I think the belt around their waist is fitting. But if a person is training for themselves without ever teaching, then I think the belt is also fitting. But for those that hang their rank around their students neck or those they train with, well lets just say I usually avoid that type if I can.

A friend that trains in another art told me once,"that a person that has attained a high rank say above 3rd or 4th Dan is an asset to their schools as that school can then attract more students." I told him," The people that follow that are exactly the people I dont want training here." I then explained the training should be the thing, for yourself, and not the attainment of a piece of cloth.

White green and Black are the only three colors we have, I think when you first attain your green it is a neat thing. But I think as the years move along, it seems to lose its luster. Some carry this loss with them when they attain their black; to others it is like a shiny trophy.

 

[ginshun]

If you seek something, you will never find it. - Zen Riddle

I think that is pretty much my philosophy on belts.

If your main goal in your art is to attain the next belt, then you are training for the wrong reason.

Just my opinion.

 

[DWeidman]

If you seek something, you will never find it. - Zen Riddle

I think that is pretty much my philosophy on belts.

If your main goal in your art is to attain the next belt, then you are training for the wrong reason.

Just my opinion.

Yeah - but if your main goal in this art is to attain the next belt - you are a flight and a round of beers away from it...

Anywho... Just my opinion as well.

-Daniel

 

[Shogun]

I am not even a ninth Kyu yet and I have been practicing for like 2 years. I refuse to test for rank in any martial art (except BJJ). I didnt take my 5th kyu test for Aikido after two years of training like everyone else.

 

[Shinkengata]

I am not even a ninth Kyu yet and I have been practicing for like 2 years. I refuse to test for rank in any martial art (except BJJ). I didnt take my 5th kyu test for Aikido after two years of training like everyone else.

Forgive me for saying so, but refusing a test or rank from an instructor seems like bad form to me. If i don't feel worthy of the rank(and i don't), i make it a goal to work and live up to that rank. To me, Rank doesn't seem like a testament to skill, but rather an expectation of what i should work to be.

 

[Shinkengata]

Thinking about it further, i do see your point, though.
It's your choice.

 

[Don Roley]

If i don't feel worthy of the rank(and i don't), i make it a goal to work and live up to that rank.

I can understand that way of thinking. Hatusmi has said that he often gives out rank before the person is really worthy of that rank to allow them to grow into it sometime in the future.

Which of course brings up another point. Is the rank you have one that you are supposed to grow into and you are not really ready for? If so, why are certain people so eager to let others know what rank they have. Are they so certain that they are not one of the folks that are given ranks they are not ready for yet?

It seems to me another reason not to reveal what rank you are too easily.

 

[Blind]

Hmmm it makes me wonder about sakizuke awarding of grades. Many who are up the ladder often say that it is another one "to go on the shelf", but I wonder for example if someone were to be graded from say 8th Dan to 9th Dan would there be a temptation for a part of them to think "Aha! I must be a real 8th Dan（whatever　that　means） to be awarded the 9th to work into".

I wouldn't even guess why Hatsumi awards the grades he does, but I can respect that those grades are awarded by him. I can't remember what book (sanmyaku?)he wrote this in but it went something like "it is much better that you are recognised by everyone for your ability rather than solely by my giving you rank". Besides that though, what is the diff. between grades? I think it depends entirely on the person and what their intentions are for their lives and the art.　

 

[KyleShort]

If you seek something, you will never find it. - Zen Riddle

I think that is pretty much my philosophy on belts.

If your main goal in your art is to attain the next belt, then you are training for the wrong reason.

Just my opinion.

I was not addressing this topic from the perspective of a trained martial artist seeking ego gratification though =)

What I am concerned about is complete neophytes to the martial arts looking to train...or more importantly looking to validate the credibility of those with whom they seek to train. Most "newbies" use belt rank as that measure...

 

[Blind]

What I am concerned about is complete neophytes to the martial arts looking to train...or more importantly looking to validate the credibility of those with whom they seek to train. Most "newbies" use belt rank as that measure...

Well, this point I am sure has been raised many times, some people would say if the "newbie" can't see the real deal from the rest then he doesn't understand enough to bother with the real deal anyway.

Another point could be the art doesn't have to fit everyone the same way, over time students will find what they are looking for and who they think serves them best, not everyone wants to be the ultimate warrior, and not everyone wants to spend their lives on the art either, some teachers will naturally fit some people more than others.

What is important I think is that one doesn't push their values on another just because they have a different interpretation, something I think most of us are guilty of at one time or another. That said people should also be honest about what they are and their capabilities, talking the talk but not walking the walk will draw fire.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If a beginner has any interest in becoming really good at all, he/she should think about what Hatsumi sensei did in order to attain his current skill level. NOT try to get there by training the same way Hatsumi sensei does nowadays while in his 70's.