Basic Principles for the Breaking Down of Kata

[Makalakumu]

The following was written by Robert M. Rivers, 5th dan Renshi in Motobu Ha Shito Ryu. This is an okinawan perspective on how they break down and use each form that they learn. Please read the following and answer the subsequent questions...

Kata is taught in no less than three phases, each phase having no less than three levels of understanding (LOU):

Phase I: Kihon

1. Block (inside), Strike (LOU)
2. Block (outside), Strike (LOU)
3. Crossing hand blocks (inside), the end of the block is the strike (LOU)
4. Crossing hand blocks (outside), the end of the block is the strike (LOU)
5. Initial front hand motion blocks (inside), the crossing hand strikes, the end of the block strikes (LOU)
6. Initial front hand motion blocks (outside), the crossing hand strikes, the end of the block strikes (LOU)
7. Evasion is the block, front side motion is strike, crossing hand is strike, end of the block is the strike (LOU)
8. Evasion is the block, the stance strikes, front side motion is strike, crossing hand is strike, end of the block is the strike (LOU)

Phase II: Tuite Basics

1. Open hands are grabbing/ manipulating, closed hands are grabbing/pulling
2. ANY time either of my limbs come back to me, there is a pull (not in the sense of pulling something) of some type. Not just the chambering hand
3. Understanding of the 5 classic wrist manipulations
4. Centerline theory of Nikkyo
5 Compound joint principle; Tendon tightening
6. Elbow, Shoulder, and neck manipulation basics
7. Setting up the joint lock happens in the transition phase (around the crossing hands moment)
8. (Oftentimes) The joint lock is occuring between 0 and 75% of the apparent block/ strike. The last 25% is (at times) the strike to the target produced by the joint lock's sympathetic reaction
9. Lock Inside, strike inside (LOU)
10. Lock Outside, Strike Inside (LOU)
11. Lock Outside, strike outside (LOU)
12. Lock Outside, strike cross body (LOU)
13. The above relate to a single joint lock method, first typically being the elbow. It then shifts to be applied to the wrist, then the wrist accentuated by the fingers, and so on.

Phase III: Kyusho Basics

1. Understanding of Traditional Chinese medicine cycles; promote, over-promote, destroy, diurnal; and Western medicine basics- autonomic system, carotid sinus, nerve plexus.
2. Common strike points
3. learning the resulting meridian attacks of the points. Re-learn Kihon LOU minding the meridians
4. Single strike (LOU)
5. Compound strike (LOU)
6. Compound strike in the cycle (LOU)
7. Compound 2, 3, 4, 5
8. Using Tuite to expose tsubo (kyusho points)

Some Questions...

1. Does your dojang address these levels of understanding in Kata? Why?
2. If so, how does it do this?
3. If you do something completely different, could you describe it?
4. How do you think what you do compares to this?

 

[robertmrivers]

Daaannnnggggg John! You made that look good!


Just a note, this was just something I typed up as a response sort of on the fly. It is isn't copied out of my notes or manual. So, essentially, this is an MT exclusive! It certainly isn't everything but should provide some useful information on breaking down kata. Naturally, most of it is going to be hard to visualize without someone actually doing it. Thanks to John for making my scribbling look so nice. If you have questions or would like to know where it goes from there just let me know. I am working on the book now which will also include a DVD containing the principles in motion.

Regards

Rob

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

I can hardly claim to be an expert on policies on training throughout the C.S. Kim Karate schools, or even at my own dojang. We certainly don't go very much in detail on anatomy -- we're not training to be able to do serious damage so much as to discipline our bodies and learn how to defend ourselves.

What I can say, though, is that there is definitely a line, or perhaps gradient, between the way someone just learning a form does it and someone who's been practicing it long enough to learn all the outs and ins and what's-doing-whats of the form. I don't want to put it at a specific belt level; it depends on a lot of things, not the least of which are school and instructor. My sa bom nim starts about green or red belt level stepping up the emphasis on technique and application, once you start into the higher pyung ahn hyung and especially once you start learning bassai so and dai. I usually ask him questions on my own time to make sure I understand things correctly, though; there's always more I can learn about a form. Luckily, my sa bom nim is very, very good at hyung, almost as good as he is at sparring. I've never yet been able to stump him.

That's all I've got on the subject, I guess.

 

[Makalakumu]

Daaannnnggggg John! You made that look good!

No problem. I just cleaned up a couple of things...

Anyway, the answers to these questions are not simple. Hwang Kee has published what he believes are the most important principles in kata. When I finish cooking dinner and get the kids to bed, perhaps I'll have time to type it out.

btw - the dojangs under my lineage do it a bit differently then Hwang Kee. I'll give a response along those lines when I have more time because THAT will be a long post.

 

[mtabone]

I am still waiting for the earth shattering secrets of hyung/kata.
No big news on the strikes and joint manipulations and grappling with in hyung.

I have heard and read about the “kyusho” aspect. And while I agree with elemental theory of techniques and such, I can’t say I am a fan of some aspect of this type of training. Dillman comes to mind. I am not sure if that is what you are trying to say with the meridian attacks, pressure points and such, can you please clarify?

So all in all:

Big hairy deal.

[FONT=&quot]MTabone[/FONT]

 

[Makalakumu]

Knowing about it and training it are two very different things. Also, there are two basic ways of making meaning of this knowledge. You can either ask...

So what?

or

Now what?

 

[exile]

I am still waiting for the earth shattering secrets of hyung/kata.
No big news on the strikes and joint manipulations and grappling with in hyung.

I have heard and read about the “kyusho” aspect. And while I agree with elemental theory of techniques and such, I can’t say I am a fan of some aspect of this type of training. Dillman comes to mind. I am not sure if that is what you are trying to say with the meridian attacks, pressure points and such, can you please clarify?

So all in all:

Big hairy deal.

[FONT=&quot]MTabone[/FONT]

I don't see why you're quite so dismissive of Rob/UpNKy's guidelines. Is it really that obvious how to go about providing a set of realistic bunkai for any given kata that somone pulls out of a hat? I very much doubt it; it's only a very small fraction of the karateka/TSDists/TKDists that I know who have a clue about how to even begin to work out robust, combat-effective applications of subsequences in any given form in their MA. Knowing that, for example, the chambering part of a block often is the block/deflection, or is the first of a series of strikes that a single `block' can be broken down into, is pretty uncommon. Same for being able to tell when a punching movement is indeed best interpreted as a punch, as vs. when it's actually part of neck-breaking head twist.

Either you already know all of this stuff, in which case what Rob and UpNKy are making available might be of no interest to you personally, or you don't, in which case it would probably be of some interest to you. But the only way it would be of no interest or importance to anyone else is if everyone doing MAs knew it already. And they don't, not all of them, not by a long shot. So for them, yeah, it would be a big deal.

 

[robertmrivers]

Mr. Tabone

I am happy to know that you have heard that there are atypical applications in kata. Your implication that having Kyusho relates to Mr. Dillman, however, tells me that you really don't know much.

I have never bought a Dillman video or book and do not attribute any of our teaching to principles to Mr. Dillman. One of Mr Dillman's instructor was a man named Seiyu Oyata, a premier student of Okinawan karate from Okinawa. Mr. Oyata and the other high ranking masters in Okinawa know all about Kyusho and the principles of how this material is gathered. My line of learning comes from the Motobu Ryu, Shobayashi Shorin Ryu, and Meibukan Goju Ryu lines from Okinawa and Japan. As an early example, Kyusho is documented as being a part of karate in the 1600's with the Bubishi. This is one of the earliest written texts in a world of oral tradition so this sets the date of "at least" the 1600s. As I have said, I am only the messenger. This material is in karate and has been for hundreds of years.

Your tone is leading me to call you out. What would your application be for a movement out of any of your Pyung ahns. Take any block punch combination found in there.

You present that you know all of this. Knowing that there are joint locks and such in the forms "somewhere" is hardly reason to say "big deal". I will say, if you know the material is in there but you are still practicing your TSD with the old "block/ punch" mentality, then it is you that we are really not that interested in. Are you one of those guys who talks about concepts you've read about but have no ability to actually apply them or can I give you a technique from any form and you are able to give me 10 different applications for it? I am interested in talking to people who are willing to not just think outside of the box, but actually live outside of the box. You have to practice what you preach.

You have implied that there are secrets or that you have to be enlightened to know this material. That is not it. You simply have to practice with the proper guidelines in order to "see" the brilliance of karate. Honestly, the orthodox TSD teachings do not have this teaching matrix in place. If you are practicing your forms diligently waiting to be enlightened, you are going to be waiting a long time. The kata is not the key, the principles are.

Regards

Rob

So we are waiting to be enlightened my friend. Any technique you would like.

 

[mtabone]

Mr. Robertmrivers,

From reading your above post I would like to say the same things that I have said to Upnorthkyosa, and that is that I believe we have more in common then we believe we have different. Things you wrote in your last post that say “The kata is not the key, the principles are”, these are exactly the type of sentiments that got this whole thread and discussion going. I would like to thank you both for this conversation before I continue with my post “Kamsahamnida”

I would like to first start out by striking my "enlightened status" from the record. I said before it is not what we do in Tang Soo Do but “It is the individuals own personal understanding with the nature of combat, the myriad of ways to neutralize it, and the personal development of self physically, mentally, and spiritually that needs the upgrade.” As you just said about kata not being the key, the principles being the key. This is not to say that what anyone knows is higher and mightier, or I have the only answers, on the contrary as I have said, I do not believe one can get an objective outcome from any form. There are not secrets to forms, or anything else, and again, I can not agree with you more that they are not secret, but a progression of understandings and applications. Hence, my big, hairy, deal comment. I have heard a lot of hype of bunkai and application and what not over the years, and, TO ME, is not very earth shattering. It never was to me at any point in my training. Now, I agree that the tone of indifference might come through in my post, and that for some bunkai/oyo might be a big thing. I am sorry if I come off as “know it all” or “forget you” and I apologize for that tone of conversation, as it was not my intent. I have to learn that the medium of the written word is not the same as conversation. But I am still entitled to my feeling about it, and it is no less another position on the matter at hand.

My Dillman reference was because I have heard so many people have a claim of this type of knowledge. I only referenced the name, that does not mean I have not researched and know other sources of information on kyusho. I will admit, I could use a lot more schooling when it comes to this department, as I have stated earlier, I am not particularly fond of it, when it comes to having to strike a series of point in a row to get a desired effect. Though I am fond of hitting people in those exact spots give me the most bang for my buck sort of speak. Hence why they are common targets in hyungs/kata, one steps and self defense.

As far as Bunkai is concerned:

I have to break the idea down in to 4 parts. Hanshi Mike Cunningham, 8th Dan in Shotokan karate told me years ago after my instructor KJN Charles Ferraro and him had their weekly Tuesday work out and lunch meeting, about these important divisions in breaking down hyung (kata).

BUNKAI = breakdown and analysis of hyung/kata without any variation of the movements, as the hyung/kata was taught by the “original instructor.” (but that is another whole can of worms with itself

OYO = any movements or techniques of the hyung/kata that have been modified from the original version, to make movements more realistic for practice and concept.

"So if one practices hyung/kata exactly the way they learned it, it is bunkai, if you make even a small change then its oyo..."

Also there is HENKA = pretty moves or extra moves, or movements that have no “combative” purpose. And KAKUSHI = hidden interpretations of the hyung/kata. I will not even touch that one below in my explanations. This could be interpreting a block as a lock, throw or takedown. Or even a whole bunch of techniques not even in the hyung kata that one is performing at the time. (even though Oyo can kind of be seen as Kakushi at times, but that is even splitting hairs even finer)

So I will give you some bunkai and some oyo for Pyung Ahn O Dan’s first two moves. I have already talked about Pyung Ahn O Dan in these posts so, why break with it?

BUNSEOK (Bunkai) for first Two Moves Pyung Ahn O Dan
#1 Left hand makes an inside outside block to the attack from uke, right hand punches uke
#2 Right hand during frame knocks uke’s punch away as the left framing hand covers body. The left hand then comes up and clears uke’s hand away. Right hand punches body.
#3 Right hand during frame knocks uke’s punch away, as the left bottom framing hand blocks and clears the next punch thrown by uke, punch body.
#4 Right hand during frame knocks uke’s punch away, as the left bottom framing hand comes up to hit atemi points inside biceps or inside forearm , punch body with right hand.
#5 Right hand during frame knocks uke’s punch away, as the left bottom framing hand comes up to hit atemi points on head/face. (personally prefer temple for this one). Punch uke with right hand.
#6 Right hand during frame knocks uke’s punch away, as the left bottom framing hand comes up to hit neck with outside of your forearm. Right hand punches uke.
#7 Right hand during frame knocks uke’s punch away as the left framing hand covers body. The left hand then comes up and clears uke’s hand away. Right hand comes across body to side cover or block.
#8 Back stance leans away from attack (could be applied to any above) as right framing hand strikes wrist or atemi points on forearm, the end of the block hits atemi points on biceps, and punch hits pectoral atemi points.

EUNG YONG (Oyo) for first two moves of Pyung Ahn O Dan
#1 Right hand of frame grabs uke’s punch, left hand comes around like it normally does for an inside outside block to uke’s biceps (or forearm) performing Nikyo, making the uke go off balance. Bringing the right hand back to hip, you execute the “punch” with a palm heal or simple grab-push to the shoulder, turning the uke counter clockwise as you pull your left hand back to perform take down.
#2 Right hand during frame knocks uke’s right punch away, as the left bottom framing hand blocks uke’s next left handed punch. Grab wrist with left hand. The “punch” turns into an open palm heel or grab-push to just above uke’s elbow to create ikkyo.
#3 Back stance leans away from attack (could be applied to any above) as right framing hand strikes wrist or atemi points on forearm, kicking knee of opponent with front leg or ground strike, the end of the block hits atemi points on biceps, and punch hits pectoral atemi points.
#4 (framing this time the left hand coming close to the body on “inside” of frame)
The framing right hand block, the left hand comes through and back fists the face as right hand grabs and pulls uke to expose side of rib cage for strike with right hand punch.
#5 I would like to write about Gokyo, but we are limited here in the guidelines to a block punch combination, but the application of this is obvious if you add the next move in the sequence.
#6 Framing Hand (left) deflects block by a front kick to body as right hand either strikes uke’s incoming attack, or inside forearm, or face, depending on distance and timing, left framing hand hits atemi points under arm pit, on the next technique, left hand comes to wrist of uke, and right hand comes behind uke’s shoulder, placing hand on shoulder, turning to a behind the back arm bar, with right arm “weaved” through and in.
#7 There is always applying kote gaeshi to uke’s hand when you pull your hand back to your hip. Like in bunkai #4 above except you bring your right hand down to uke’s hand, apply proper grip and turn hand to kote gaeshi as you punch opponent, or take down opponent as in oyo #1.

(I did not touch on sidestepping and controlling line of attack because I believe that falls under Kakushi, and what I believe we are dealing with is the bunkai or oyo of hyung/kata)

It is argued that all applications of hyung/kata are reverse engineered. I tend to agree with this crowd. Does anyone really know the CREATORS original interpretation of the techniques of hyung/kata? Hyung/Kata have tremendous amounts of application and information, and were designed that way, so that we not lose important information incase something happened to that information. Like they died, or a war happened that could have made it harder to truly know what the original creator had in mind, or even how it was preformed when the hyung/kata was created. How many variations are there of Bassai alone?

But much thanks for you have helped me to write out some application that I have practiced and been taught over the years. I never really wrote them down before. Of course, these are not all of the possible outcomes, and probably some are not “traditionally” done. My only burden of proof is it they work. But I am always willing to learn more about it, and if you would like to teach a seminar at the West Haven Academy of Karate in West Haven, CT, I am sure I can work out a date and time when you can come down at my instructor KJN C. Ferraro dojang (dojo). I am sure he would love it. Private Message me and we could set it up.

Michael Tabone


PS- I have to say I did get a kick out the comment about me thinking and living outside the box because I am constantly saying those same exact words to my student. In a paper one of my student wrote for a Dan test, one page was all about how I keep pushing her to think outside of the box, and at first how she hated it, and now kind of enjoys it, and how it has really helped her along the way.

Seriously PM and we can try and set up a clinic/seminar in West Haven. I think it would be pretty cool.

 

[Makalakumu]

I have heard a lot of hype of bunkai and application and what not over the years, and, TO ME, is not very earth shattering. It never was to me at any point in my training.

I think that it is important, as Robert and I pointed out, that this is not typical of most tangsoodoin. In my next post, I'll lay out the root of all this.

My Dillman reference was because I have heard so many people have a claim of this type of knowledge. I only referenced the name, that does not mean I have not researched and know other sources of information on kyusho. I will admit, I could use a lot more schooling when it comes to this department, as I have stated earlier, I am not particularly fond of it, when it comes to having to strike a series of point in a row to get a desired effect. Though I am fond of hitting people in those exact spots give me the most bang for my buck sort of speak. Hence why they are common targets in hyungs/kata, one steps and self defense.

The latter of what you described is the actual intent of these points. Kyusho was never meant to be a "color by numbers" type of activity. And I know many karateka who have learned traditional kyusho and are very unhappy that he has turned this aspect of the art into the side show it is now. Does the "Cycle of Destruction" come into play at all? Sure, but not to the extent that you can start taking accupressure points and strike them willy nilly to get a desired effect. The points the kata shows are there for more reasons then just their meridian designation.

I have to break the idea down in to 4 parts. Hanshi Mike Cunningham, 8th Dan in Shotokan karate told me years ago after my instructor KJN Charles Ferraro and him had their weekly Tuesday work out and lunch meeting, about these important divisions in breaking down hyung (kata).

BUNKAI = breakdown and analysis of hyung/kata without any variation of the movements, as the hyung/kata was taught by the “original instructor.” (but that is another whole can of worms with itself

OYO = any movements or techniques of the hyung/kata that have been modified from the original version, to make movements more realistic for practice and concept.

"So if one practices hyung/kata exactly the way they learned it, it is bunkai, if you make even a small change then its oyo..."

Also there is HENKA = pretty moves or extra moves, or movements that have no “combative” purpose. And KAKUSHI = hidden interpretations of the hyung/kata. I will not even touch that one below in my explanations. This could be interpreting a block as a lock, throw or takedown. Or even a whole bunch of techniques not even in the hyung kata that one is performing at the time. (even though Oyo can kind of be seen as Kakushi at times, but that is even splitting hairs even finer)

This really is the meat of what this thread is supposed to be about. I was hoping to discuss what everyone does in regards to basic principles for breaking down kata and then compare and contrast the approaches. I'll tackle this in particular in a future post.

It is argued that all applications of hyung/kata are reverse engineered. I tend to agree with this crowd. Does anyone really know the CREATORS original interpretation of the techniques of hyung/kata? Hyung/Kata have tremendous amounts of application and information, and were designed that way, so that we not lose important information incase something happened to that information. Like they died, or a war happened that could have made it harder to truly know what the original creator had in mind, or even how it was preformed when the hyung/kata was created. How many variations are there of Bassai alone?

I don't think there is anything wrong with reverse engineering kata. In fact, I think that if you have a methodology for testing the material that you come up with, this experience could be very useful for a persons development as a martial artist. This is because the person is allowed to tailor the principles the kata is teaching to meet their own personal needs.

With that being said, I do think that their is value in lineage. What we are really dealing with here is something called syncretism. Kata are like any other symbols and they get passed from culture to culture and their meanings change depending on what the culture wants to use them for. Hwang Kee had a particular view of kata that was very korean and I will address that in a bit. The point I want to make here about that is that this view is just an lineage. Syncretic lineage.

Thus, when you trace back the cultural path that these kata have taken you are only going to get closer and closer to how these kata were originally viewed. Will you ever perform some sort of necromancy and read the minds of masters long dead? No. But you will find yourself contacting people whose minds have not deviated that far.

 

[Makalakumu]

The following was written in Hwang Kee's textbook "Soo Bahk Do Volume One."

I've taken the time to type out part of the chapter where he explains the basic principles that he developed to understand the forms in his art. I believe that this section is worthy of study because it portrays methodology that shaped the views of most Soo Bahk Do/Tang Soo Do practicioners.

Whether a practitioner belong to the Moo Duk Kwan or not, this methodology shapes some or all of that person's understanding of the forms in their art.

The Concepts of Forms
By Hwang Kee​

​

Ancient people had a deep interest in the development of forms as well as a profound understanding of them. The following is a translation of what is found in the test, Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji, author unknown, of the 17th century:

“Performing with the hands and feet and conditioning the body is the beginning of the study of the art of Soo Bahk Do (Tang Soo Do). In actual combat, form does not seem in an obvious way to be a necessary part of the martial arts. However, practicing forms perfects the ability to perform hand and foot techniques freely. This is fundamental to making the best use of one’s body at all times.”

Basic to all martial arts is this: After the basic movements are learned they are applied to and transformed in forms. As established, traditional and clearly defined sets of steps, jumps, blocks, kicks, punches, and thrusts, each of the forms in our art has a unity and purpose.

Basic forms consist of one block, one thrust or strike and turns patterned to develop control, rhythm, power and speed in the earth integration of basic techniques. As they progress, the forms become increasingly complex in the variety, combinations and sequence of blocks, kicks, thrusts, jumps and turns. One advanced form may take years of daily practice and intense concentration to master. Perfect form, exquisite fusing of mind and body, is a high art and a thing of beauty. The form is not, however, the whole art in itself.

As an exercise, it is that part of the progression in the art which conditions the mind, body and reflexes for the stresses of free sparring and ultimately for the realities of defensive conflict. The sequence of moves may simulate responses to many kinds of attacks and strategies for defense against a number of attackers, and the control of one’s space in dealing with the direction of attack.

In different forms a discreet number of movements are put together into intricate sequences and varied patterns. The practitioner cannot remember only the order of the form. It is more important for him to concentrate on balance, rhythm, breathing control, variation in speed and power control. It is vital to pay attention to these things so that the form is presented as an approach to a living ideal. It would be disrespectful to consider that one knows a form simply by virtue of having memorized a series of individual movements.

As in all art we perceive greatness and perfection not by the addition of bits and pieces, not by the analysis of the separate elements that make up the whole, but by a realization that the whole seems greater then the parts. That realization is intuitive and instantaneous.

If the practitioner makes us aware that the form consists of parts of individual movements, then we witness skill, perhaps, but not art. Form is the mother body or essence of all aspects of technique in the martial arts. The practitioner must, therefore, practice his forms with sincerity and a deep commitment to the ideal. Also, he must practice only those forms for which he is mentally and physically prepared. It is unreasonable and presumptuous for a white belt to practice a black belt form. He would gain no understanding of the value, purpose, meaning or unity of the form. Furthermore, one of the major aspects of mental development and discipline in our art is the master that comes with the habit of accurately perceiving and estimating our individual level of competence and achievement.

The practitioner who over reaches himself does a disservice to himself and to our art.

In summary, to study forms one must be concerned with the application and meaning behind each movement and technique, both offensive and defensive. Instead of practicing each movement within the form by itself, one should find the meaning behind each movement, the inter-relationship behind each movement, and the inter-relationship of each sequence within a meaningful whole.

If one were to disregard the history, value and concepts of forms, one could develop hundreds of forms with the individual movements available. That would be, in effect, an attempt to create new ideals, a different philosophy, that would destroy the integrity of our martial art. The body of traditional forms we have offers more then enough challenge, difficulty and complexity for one lifetime. Each form has its own character, just as each person does. The elements that make up the character or personality of a form may be understood as follows:

• Form Sequence – The proper and correct sequence of moves in a particular form.
• Power Control – Command of the release, restraint and relaxation of explosive energy and focused power.
• Tension and Relaxation – Master of breathing and timing in the accumulation and release of energy or power.
• Speed and Rhythm Control – Coordination and patterning of the moves at rates appropriate to the sub-sequences within the form.
• Direction of Movements – Certainty of balance and confidence of step in changing direction.
• Spirit or Attitude – Evidence of a sense of calm and humility based on self-knowledge and dedication to the perfect form.
• Power of Technique – Rigor and strength of moves especially evident in equal power of attack and defense.
• Understanding Form Technique – Demonstration in the form that the sequence of moves has been internalized and flows with the naturalness and ease of reflex responses, that is, without the obvious intervention of conscious thought.
• Distinctive Features of the Form – Evocation in the observer of a vidid awareness of the specific kinds of attack and of the number and direction of attackers for which a particular form is designed.
• Perfect Finish – As additional evidence of concentration and control, the last move of the form ends at the starting point and then remains frozen or fixed there until signaled by the referee, judge or teacher.
• Precision of Movements – Such accuracy in the execution of a move as reflects the finest logical coordination of balance, distance, power, ability and control.
• Intentness – Direction and concentration of the entire attention upon points of power. The intent eyes communicate both a determination to defend against attacks and a predetermined plan or deliberate design for defense. Further, the eyes anticipate the intended direction of moves by quick shifts and then concentration of focus upon the point of power.

These twelve elements may be used as a basis for evaluating a form and for the study of its improved performance.

What are your initial impressions? How does this compare with that you do? How does this contrast with the views that have been posted?

 

[robertmrivers]

Mr. Tabone

No worries, my friend. I apologize if I came off as "challenging", but, I get this a lot. I don't want to degrade the work you have put into this.

A couple of things: (and I think this is the root of a lot of issues)

Reverse Engineering: Most think that the original techniques are not known...thus the need to reverse engineer. Not so. The original techniques are known. Imagine someone in the late 1800's takes up the study of karate. He learns kata, he learns bunkai. He gets to a certain level of proficiency and the teacher tells him "nice, but more focus on "this" movement. WHY? Why focus on the movement in the kata if we are trying to learn higher level/ more efficient techniques. It is because the Sensei knows the end result. He knows what the kata is leading up to and what techniques the student is ultimately going to be gleaning from the kata if he continues to practice hard. The end techniques are known...by the instructors. Because they learned the same exact way 30 years prior and ultimately put the puzzle together. Now, the instructor will carry on the teaching to you using the same methodolgy he learned because it was gradual and systematic and was able to adjust to the proficiency level of the student throughout their life. The kata is the cart, but the Sensei is the one pulling it...the cart does not know where it is going...but the Sensei does...molding the student's thought process within the kata as the student passes each level of understanding. There are many steps on this journey as the student is honing the tools he needs to become an excellent martial artist. As another example, at the higher levels, there are no blocks. But, we cannot teach people this at the beginning. The student must learn about timing, distance, and the attacker's mentality. As the student becomes aware of the different aspects of an encounter, the teacher will promote to the next level of understanding.

Oyo: Oyo does not mean techniques modified from the original version. Oyo are the highest levels of understanding of a kata or technique (literally "practical applications"). In classical sword or jujutsu you will hear "Okuden" or highest level. (Incidentally, "Naiden" is after that meaning "secret" levels). So we are learning kata, we are learning what it means in a stepping stone fashion until finally we are ready to see the Oyo, the higher levels of karate. The Oyo are typically the "standard" higher level teachings of the style/ head instructor. These Oyo are related from the kata, but in the same way a Doctor refers to the Merck Reference Manual. The kata is the collection of techniques and principles. Not the method of execution of the highest level techniques.

Henka: Not extra moves...or pretty moves. It literally means "variation". These are your personal variations of the standard applications. But don't confuse this with "stuff you make up". They are variations of standard techniques. In jujutsu or aikido, for example, you learn kansetsu waza (arm bar) and then you learn shi ho nage (like a figure four on the shoulder). Your henka is to put them together...or put a punch or elbow in the middle of the two. Or pull that kansetsu waza back around for nikyo. Nobody taught you to put a kick in there...but you do. That's henka. There is no henka in the execution of kata. The henka is applied to your application.

You can only use jujutsu like technique to "reverse engineer" kata to an extent. Karate is not jujutsu. The purpose of jujutsu techniques is different than karate techniques. They both may have wrist locks or even the same root technique in many respects, but, the result of the joint lock in karate has different implications than in jujutsu. This is why you need a KARATE sensei who is well versed in the entire methodology to lead you through the kata.

I am positive that most people associated with this forum are aware of the difference between practice techniques and real life self defense. I am sure that everyone will agree that the things that we would do for real or what the police and military would do in combat are different than what most people practice in a dojo/ dojang. I stress this all the time, karate is an art. TSD is an art. TKD is an art. The art is a learning methodology that brings one to some sort of enlightenment. Military tactics are a separate art. Police tactics are a separate art. Thai boxing is a separate art. All of these different arts have different paradigms that the practitioner must operate within. Karate, as an art, has a history of over 500 years that dictated the manner in which every aspect of the art was developed, improved, and transmitted. People can either look at it from that point of view, or they can see what is on the surface (the kata) from a MMA, Navy SEAL, Krav Maga, or law enforcement point of view and say that it is ineffective in a "real world" situation...without having any extended experience in karate from highly qualified teachers that can show the higher principles of karate. Every principle that is found in defensive tactics is found in karate. It cannot be found in kata by someone who is practicing the kata as a series of movements. It is found in the principles of the art...with kata being the vehicle by which the art is transmitted. People assume karate=kata. It is actually Karate= kata+kihon+ippon kumite+jiyu kumite+jiyu ippon kumite+goshin jutsu (self defense)+ sanbon kumite+ chuden/ okuden/naiden/oyo/henka+bunkai+tichiki... and the list goes on and on...

The kata is the reference material. The other stuff is how we learn to make it happen.

Mr. Tabone, in looking at your bunkai, you have obviously put a lot of time into what you are doing and it is a credit to you and your teachers. It is refreshing to know that I will not have to start at square one if I am invited up. PM is on the way. I am looking forward to meeting you.

Regards to everyone
Rob

 

[Makalakumu]

The difference between the translation of these very important words has always interested me...

I have to break the idea down in to 4 parts. Hanshi Mike Cunningham, 8th Dan in Shotokan karate told me years ago after my instructor KJN Charles Ferraro and him had their weekly Tuesday work out and lunch meeting, about these important divisions in breaking down hyung (kata).

BUNKAI = breakdown and analysis of hyung/kata without any variation of the movements, as the hyung/kata was taught by the “original instructor.” (but that is another whole can of worms with itself

OYO = any movements or techniques of the hyung/kata that have been modified from the original version, to make movements more realistic for practice and concept.

"So if one practices hyung/kata exactly the way they learned it, it is bunkai, if you make even a small change then its oyo..."

Also there is HENKA = pretty moves or extra moves, or movements that have no “combative” purpose. And KAKUSHI = hidden interpretations of the hyung/kata. I will not even touch that one below in my explanations. This could be interpreting a block as a lock, throw or takedown. Or even a whole bunch of techniques not even in the hyung kata that one is performing at the time. (even though Oyo can kind of be seen as Kakushi at times, but that is even splitting hairs even finer)

From what I understand, this translation is common in Shotokan circles. It was the one that I was taught when I trained in Shotokan and it was the one that my teacher used initially. Then we switched to the one below once we started inviting some ryukyu kempo students into our dojang.

Oyo: Oyo does not mean techniques modified from the original version. Oyo are the highest levels of understanding of a kata or technique (literally "practical applications"). In classical sword or jujutsu you will hear "Okuden" or highest level. (Incidentally, "Naiden" is after that meaning "secret" levels). So we are learning kata, we are learning what it means in a stepping stone fashion until finally we are ready to see the Oyo, the higher levels of karate. The Oyo are typically the "standard" higher level teachings of the style/ head instructor. These Oyo are related from the kata, but in the same way a Doctor refers to the Merck Reference Manual. The kata is the collection of techniques and principles. Not the method of execution of the highest level techniques.

Henka: Not extra moves...or pretty moves. It literally means "variation". These are your personal variations of the standard applications. But don't confuse this with "stuff you make up". They are variations of standard techniques. In jujutsu or aikido, for example, you learn kansetsu waza (arm bar) and then you learn shi ho nage (like a figure four on the shoulder). Your henka is to put them together...or put a punch or elbow in the middle of the two. Or pull that kansetsu waza back around for nikyo. Nobody taught you to put a kick in there...but you do. That's henka. There is no henka in the execution of kata. The henka is applied to your application.

I'm curious as to how this difference in translation came about. I don't speak Japanese, so I can't examine the characters in this case, so I'm wondering if you know anything about this difference?

 

[Makalakumu]

The following is a breif description of some of my thoughts on kata...

On Using Kata…

​

Reality changes and flows and that fixed patterns are impractical when woven into this framework. Kata, however, are training tools, not reality. One can imagine themselves doing technique with intent in kata, but this is not the same thing as a self-defense situation. It is training. Bunkai, are possibilities, things that could be done. The end result is that they train the reflexes so that they react to certain cues. This process eventually will occur without thought so that if something doesn't work, the body does something else.

The "mind of no mind" described above is not automatic. I don't know if you have played any other sports, but there are some insights with that training that are helpful. In baseball, learning how to catch a ball was the first step in learning how to play the field. In golf, learning how to hold the club and swing was a very important piece of playing the game. In wrestling, learning how to bridge was a foundation for number of things. In boxing, throwing a good jab is important. None of these things are the whole sport or art, but all of them required structure, repetition, and eventually situational adaptation in order to learn well enough to do without thought. Why should the forms be any different?

There needs to be a formalized way of teaching bunkai in kata in order to use it effectively as self defense. One must practice a move repeatedly in order to improve the technique and make it automatic. One must learn how to apply this automatic technique in a random situation correctly. One must learn to adapt so they can change to other things when something doesn't work. There are training methods for all of these things and I don't think that "playing with" certain applications every so often is going to achieve those ends by itself. It would be like walking up to a heavy bag and throwing a few punches and kicks once every week or so. That will not prepare someone (well) to actually punch and kick in reality.

An example of a formalized system for learning bunkai is the following...

a. The first thing a teacher must teach is a set of basics that corresponds to each kata. One that will allow a student to see and perform certain techniques therein and improve things like physical conditioning, balance, and efficiency of movement. Stances, transitions, punches, kicks, joint locks, throws, etc are all part of certain katas. This would be akin to throwing and catching a ball, swinging a bat, and running and sliding in baseball.

b. One learns the kata, memorizing the moves and details, and is able to perform it.

c. Traditional applications should be used as an example to teach anatomical knowledge and application mechanics...yet this information should be open ended. The student should eventually begin to "play" with the moves under the tutelage of the instructor, who gives insights into their multiple meanings. The teacher does not spoon-feed alternative applications, but rather gives clues and hints so that the student learns how to interpret the movements for themselves. The goal is for the student to learn the possibilities of each technique and understand their situational nature from a multifaceted point of view (this is the beauty of kata IMHO).

d. The true nature of kata is that they are a set of drills strung together by the creator so they can easily remember/transport/transfer practical knowledge regarding self-defense techniques. It is important for a student to eventually learn these because they provide a basis for understanding. Kata are not limited to these though (and I know many people who would disagree with that). Every student is different. They have different bodies and things work differently. The student must develop a set of drills that work with their body types...ones that they can practice repeatedly and relentlessly.

e. The student must learn how to apply in a "live" situation. Drills only take a student so far and eventually the student must transcend them. Application should "flow" from a student without thought and without hesitation and with no regard for "proper" context in the sense that one "waits" for certain things to happen. Drilled techniques need to be modified "on the fly" and altered to fit the situation at hand. This is a process of controlling the rules in sparring/randori/grappling and gradually removing them...but not removing so many that the training becomes overly dangerous.

There are many other ways of using kata and each will deliver certain results. However, if one believes that kata are a central part of an art and that they are useful for self-defense, a system that resembles what is outline above is needed in order to use them most effectively.

Thoughts?

 

[exile]

KAKUSHI = hidden interpretations of the hyung/kata. I will not even touch that one below in my explanations. This could be interpreting a block as a lock, throw or takedown.

I'm sorry, but I'm not getting this at all. Anko Itosu, who personally created the descriptive terminology we now use to talk about certain movements as `blocks', `chambering', `front stance' and so on, was absolutely explicit that he was repackaging the actual moves involved as relatively sanitized applications that could be sold to the Okinawan school authorities. He was clear, for exaple, that what he labelled `blocks' are only very rarely literal blocks. Since he himself cautioned us not to take any of this descriptive packaging literally—and since the living Okinawan tradition of kata interpretation routinely takes `blocking motions' to involve locking and striking moves—why does the idea of this kind of interpretation merit the description `hidden'? In other words, since we've been told by the man who created the Pinans and the modern forms of some of the other classic katas that the movements he described as blocks are not to be taken literally as blocks, the only way these other interpretations could be described as `hidden' is if we ignored his own warning and went on treating them as blocking moves, in spite of what he had told us. The same with stances, which are most practically intepreted not as postures, but as clues in the kata as to how weight is to be projected in the enforcement of a technique.

I agree with what's been said about reverse engineering—discovering the meaning of kata movements by looking at how these movements, linked together in two-to-four move sequences, would have maximum effectiveness against common attack initiations (grabs, roundhouse haymakers, unbalancing pushes). But I don't see why, after all the work that people like Iain Abernethy, Bill Burgar, Rick Clark, Kris Wilder and Lawrence Kand and others have carried out on karate bunkai, we need to take the descriptoins that Itosu himself acknowledged as deceptive, geared for children's use only, as the default interpretation. When a block at a certain point makes no sense as a block, but makes excellent sense as an armlock used to force the attacker's head down and then as a forearm blow to the trapped attacker's now accessible throat, why do we have to take the latter to be a `hidden' interpetation? Since the standard labelling of kata moves typically leads to sequences of actions that make little or no sense in the kinds of combat situations that karate and its Korean variants TSD and TKD were designed to handle, why should we give these labels any credence as descriptions of the combative content of the movements in question?

 

[robertmrivers]

Mina san (Everyone)

I borrowed this from a post on e-budo:

分解する Bunkai suru (verb) to break down; to disect; to take apart.
応用する Oyo suru (verb) to apply; to put to practical use.

It is extremely hard to take a word used in the martial sense used by a specific teacher in a specific style under a specific context and apply it universally. What you have above are the literal translations. The way I learned, the words themselves will have dual implications depending on the context of the conversation. As an example, the teacher may say "Let me see your oyo", in which case you show what you think the movement means beyond typical interpretation. But, as the teacher is teaching he shows a technique that is beyond what you understood to be the bunkai and says "Kore wa oyo desu"..."this is the oyo"...implying "this is THE oyo"...this is the technique you SHOULD be working towards and basing your interpretations from.

So, in essence: "Let me see your Oyo" and "this is oyo" coming from a 10th dan in Okinawa can place two different meanings of the term oyo.

It does not get any less confusing the more you learn!! History, language, customs, etiquette and culture all play a part.

Good Luck

Rob

 

[Makalakumu]

Since the standard labelling of kata moves typically leads to sequences of actions that make little or no sense in the kinds of combat situations that karate and its Korean variants TSD and TKD were designed to handle, why should we give these labels any credence as descriptions of the combative content of the movements in question?

I don't think that we should. In fact, I think that to continue to do so will only retard your understanding of the kata. The way we name techniques in the hyung in TSD is directly based on the karate that was passed through Shotokan, and as you correctly noted above, is the product of Itosu's use of misdirection and sanitization of karate for school children.

With that being said, I think that as you travel farther down this path of learning the applications for the kata, you will find that you will need to completely rethink how you are doing basics. The "old" way of doing line drills will NOT accomodate this "older" way of doing kata.

Here is a thread on that topic...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31800

 

[robertmrivers]

Nice...both of you. When we teach according to the aforementioned matrix and standards of learning, the time between being on the inside and blocking with the "blocking " hand to being on the outside and blocking with the crossing hand takes one to around green belt. After that, students are taught to retain the information for teaching purposes so that they may continue the method of teaching with their future students, but that is it. At the black belt levels, kata applications do not contain any "blocks". If you want to make this method of teaching standard, all you have to do is say it is so! It is not that hard to abandon nonsensical ideologies (is that harsh?) Seriously, I think some instructors underestimate the ability of the students. If you tell your students that "this is the way you do it at YELLOW belt and this is the way you teach your yellow belts, but it is only a stepping stone to you doing it THIS way...the more tactically sound way... the students will more than comprehend the concept.

Mathematically, over a 30 year training period, you are only "blocking" according to the kata for about 3% of your time (w/ green belt being @ 1 year). If you are still blocking the way it appears in kata for 10 years...then you are spending 33% of your training time doing it incorrectly...

I sense a seminar tour coming...

Rob