Application's of Kata?

[Tensei85]

Hey everyone,
I had a question on the application of 2 Kata's; Haha, I know it's important to find a qualified Instructor to give the subtleties, fundamentals...

But what is the application of the Cross step in these 2 Kata's?

Seibukan Seisan

Ananku

Thanks a lot,

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Its kind of hard to describe in writing. It could be a step on the foot, or sweep it could be simply a transition. It depends on how you are performing the movement.

 

[K-man]

But what is the application of the Cross step in these 2 Kata's?

Seibukan Seisan

Ananku

It is similar to a cross step in Naihanchi kata that is in fact a takedown with a foot press or kick to the back or side of the knee, probably in a grappling scenario. Another thought is that it is a straight foot-sweep. Seisan kata in Shorin Ryu is very different to that of Goju so this is just supposition. :asian:

 

[dancingalone]

It is similar to a cross step in Naihanchi kata that is in fact a takedown with a foot press or kick to the back or side of the knee, probably in a grappling scenario. Another thought is that it is a straight foot-sweep. Seisan kata in Shorin Ryu is very different to that of Goju so this is just supposition. :asian:

Correct!

For the original poster, I'd suggest researching into the lanka foot patterns from the Indonesia systems if you want to explore this idea in some depth. I learned a few 'tripping' gambits in Okinawan karate, but my experience leads me to believe that Silat covers this aspect of footwork more extensively.

 

[TimoS]

But what is the application of the Cross step in these 2 Kata's?

I'm assuming you mean the part just before the maegeri-gedanbarai-gyakuzuki-chudanuke combination in Seisan. The basic application to that is simply to cover the distance so you can kick the opponent. Nothing more fancy than that. The application in Ananku is the same, as Ananku can be considered to be an introduction into the karate of Chotoku Kyan. It is "just" a combination of techniques from other kata.

 

[Tensei85]

Thanks everyone, appreciate all the info.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Thanks everyone, appreciate all the info.

No problem

 

[K-man]

The basic application to that is simply to cover the distance so you can kick the opponent. Nothing more fancy than that. The application in Ananku is the same, as Ananku can be considered to be an introduction into the karate of Chotoku Kyan. It is "just" a combination of techniques from other kata.

I have difficulty accepting that any deliberate move in a kata is nothing more than covering distance. Throughout both kata there are many moves covering distance, almost all with a very wide stance. The steps we are discussing are deliberate, and quite different to all the others. I accept your assertion that this is the basic explanation but is it the real meaning of the kata? If I wanted to kick someone there is no way that I would be moving in like that, with my front leg obstructing my kicking leg. :asian:

 

[TimoS]

If I wanted to kick someone there is no way that I would be moving in like that, with my front leg obstructing my kicking leg. :asian:

In my opinion it is not obstructing anything. Also, how often do you move exactly like in a kata in a real situation? Never been in one myself, but I would guess that you always have to modify your technique. I have seen Zenpo Shimabukuro sensei explain it to us like I told here. Of course, you might be able to use it in other situations also, but if I wanted to e.g. stomp on my opponents knee, there's a better technique for that in Gojushiho

 

[seasoned]

Although nether Seisan shown, is the one I currently practice, at one point in time this step through with a front kick was a great technique in sparring. As we know, bunkai is layered to not only cover the originators intent but also subsequent interpretations pertaining to that persons focus, and the focus of Okinawan GoJu. Because in both video's, the step through foot is exaggeratedly picked up high, it would imply a stomp kick. In my novice years I would always look for the sparring value of techniques in the kata, but sticking to the tenants of the nature of Okinawan GoJu, I view most techniques as the close in fighting techniques that set this art aside from some. IMHO :asian:

 

[Tez3]

I have difficulty accepting that any deliberate move in a kata is nothing more than covering distance. Throughout both kata there are many moves covering distance, almost all with a very wide stance. The steps we are discussing are deliberate, and quite different to all the others. I accept your assertion that this is the basic explanation but is it the real meaning of the kata? If I wanted to kick someone there is no way that I would be moving in like that, with my front leg obstructing my kicking leg. :asian:

You have Iain Abernethy coming to Oz this year, you will have to grab him and see what he thinks!

 

[Tensei85]

You know this got me thinking, haha yes I do that once in awhile not to often but once in awhile!

It seems that maybe the application as I have half falsely worded "may or may not differ" based on the Sensei, how the system was handed down to him/her, how they approached training in the Kata, various other requisites...

As Kata is not an exact fixed set pattern, it is a free flowing set of movements that can be changed up(after you have perfected satisfactory the basics), as my opinion it teaches the core mechanics, concepts & categorizes everything within in the systems principles.

Just a thought,

Wrong or Right? Input is appreciated

Btw, thanks again this is an enjoyable discussion.

 

[K-man]

You have Iain Abernethy coming to Oz this year, you will have to grab him and see what he thinks!

And ... it is local for me.

I had booked to go then the opportunity came up to take a trip to Antarctica!

Guess where I'm going.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

You know this got me thinking, haha yes I do that once in awhile not to often but once in awhile!

It seems that maybe the application as I have half falsely worded "may or may not differ" based on the Sensei, how the system was handed down to him/her, how they approached training in the Kata, various other requisites...

As Kata is not an exact fixed set pattern, it is a free flowing set of movements that can be changed up(after you have perfected satisfactory the basics), as my opinion it teaches the core mechanics, concepts & categorizes everything within in the systems principles.

Just a thought,

Wrong or Right? Input is appreciated

Btw, thanks again this is an enjoyable discussion.

If every Sensei taught the exact same way there would not be different schools of the same style such as in Kobayashi Shorin Ryu for example there is these various schools (Shorinkan (Nakazato), Shidokan (Miyahira), Shubukan (Uema), Kyudokan (Higa), Butokukan (Gibo), Reihokan (Ahagon), Myobukan (Matsuda), Kiyobukan (Nakaza), Shinjinbukan (Onaga) and I am sure there are others. Each one of these dojo's may have a similar curriculum but it does very a little as does their training methods and the various specialities and experiences of the Sensei of that dojo. In turn the bunkai of the same katas may very slightly from dojo to dojo.

For example Shorinkan, Shidokan, Shubukan, Kyudokan and Reihokan all were founded by direct students of Chosin Chibana even if they studied for a short time with Chibana later in his life. All their kata and technique look very similar but still have noticeable differences but that does not make anyone of them bad just a little different.

Just my .02

 

[TimoS]

All their kata and technique look very similar but still have noticeable differences but that does not make anyone of them bad just a little different.

Just my .02

On the other hand, I'm fairly sure their applications will be more or less the same, eventhough their kata may vary, because they all trained under Chibana. I had an excellent reminder of this kind of thing last summer in Okinawa, when I was attending a seminar by Joen Nakazato, another direct student of Chotoku Kyan. His student were demonstrating Passai and showed some applications and, surprise surprise, even though the moves in kata look a bit different outwardly, the applications still were the same that we've been shown in Seibukan.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Timo,
I think there might be a little more variance in Chibana's lineage than in Kyan's lineage but for the most part I agree.

 

[Tensei85]

Points well taken, gives me alot to think about.


Thanks,