Another video

[chrispillertkd]

Then I don't know how to say it in clearer terms than this: it is intended as a bit of FUN that doubles as a way to reach a non-Taekwondo audience. And that's what it did. This video was originally introduced to me by a friend who is not a martial artist but knew 'Gangnam Style'.

But you're just upset, or seemingly so, that other people don't share your opinion. You thought it was a bit of fun, other people thought it was silly (not in a good way). They are certainly as likely to be correct as you are.

I'm not saying that, you're saying that. I'm not responding to your points here, because in my opinion, you need to let it go and move on. I really don't care.

That is what you're saying because of the way you stated it. Lots of people, which I'm sure you've experienced as well, saying things in an insulting manner.

In your opinion. Move on.

This is another example of you telling people how it is and expecting them to agree or shut up. And why do you get to tell other people to "move on," "unclench," or "not take themselves so seriously" but can't receive similar advice?

So is Taekwondo. The two aren't that different, I practice both. Martial arts are part of the Korean culture being exchanged.

Your previous comment as simply that Taekwondo was a "cultural exchange between Korea and other cultures" and had no sort of implication that it was more than that, which is why I said Taekwon-Do is more than that (not that it wasn't that, although I'd not use that term, personally). I'm surprised that you'd say Taekwondo and Taekwon-Do aren't that different. I practiced Taekwondo for a couple of years back in college and there were some pretty big differences, so I'm pretty interested in your insight in this area. Your profile says your a 3rd dan in Taekwondo. What dan are you in Taekwon-Do? How long have you practiced it? Which ITF are you ranked through?

Personally, I'm always impressed when people do both Taekwondo and Taekwon-Do because of the differences in body mechanics inherent in both styles. I've seen lots of people do two pattern sets in an identical manner, but very few who actually do two different styles, so that's pretty cool if you do that!

I came to comment on the video, and people's negative attitudes towards dance as part of Taekwondo, which I've done. You've yet to bring much to this discussion other than your statements about how you perceive my comment. How about actually expressing your opinion instead of taking umbrage at the way I express mine?

Well, what I was also trying to do is point out that your disagreement about others' opinion is itself just an opinion and is, therefore, worth exactly what their opinions are worth. Which is why I'm a bit confused about your reaction to me pointing out your rudeness. Your opinion is just as (in)valid as anyone else's so being rude to others is really not necessary.

I already did express my opinion on the video when I said people could do whatever they wanted.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Gnarlie]

But you're just upset, or seemingly so, that other people don't share your opinion. You thought it was a bit of fun, other people thought it was silly (not in a good way). They are certainly as likely to be correct as you are.

I'm not upset at all, just a bit bored of this conversation. Yeah, people are entitled to their opinion.

That is what you're saying because of the way you stated it. Lots of people, which I'm sure you've experienced as well, saying things in an insulting manner.

Oh dear, shall we move on, this is getting very repetitive. No rudeness was intended, I know, I'm the person that said it.

This is another example of you telling people how it is and expecting them to agree or shut up. And why do you get to tell other people to "move on," "unclench," or "not take themselves so seriously" but can't receive similar advice?

You've said your piece, given your advice, I've said mine, given mine. So I have received your advice. I just don't agree with it. Which is fine. You don't agree with mine either. Which is also fine. Let's both move on, there was no rudeness intended and this point you seem to be hung up on is boring and repetitive.

Your previous comment as simply that Taekwondo was a "cultural exchange between Korea and other cultures" and had no sort of implication that it was more than that, which is why I said Taekwon-Do is more than that (not that it wasn't that, although I'd not use that term, personally). I'm surprised that you'd say Taekwondo and Taekwon-Do aren't that different. I practiced Taekwondo for a couple of years back in college and there were some pretty big differences, so I'm pretty interested in your insight in this area. Your profile says your a 3rd dan in Taekwondo. What dan are you in Taekwon-Do? How long have you practiced it? Which ITF are you ranked through?

I'm not ranked, but I have ranked teachers (which is why I said I practise both). I don't see the point in ranking through both bodies. I do make sure I understand what differences there are, but frankly, I prefer to look for similarities rather than differences. I started learning the ITF syllabus as a way to better understand Taekwondo and it's cultural heritage. Also as a way to bridge the gaping chasm that seems to exist between the two but is actually more of a crack.

Personally, I'm always impressed when people do both Taekwondo and Taekwon-Do because of the differences in body mechanics inherent in both styles. I've seen lots of people do two pattern sets in an identical manner, but very few who actually do two different styles, so that's pretty cool if you do that!

Yes, the body mechanics are slightly different, as is the speed and the approach to patterns in general, but not sufficiently different to make it difficult to switch between the two. I think this is probably because my original instructors were ex-ITF folk, and brought some of that with them.

Well, what I was also trying to do is point out that your disagreement about others' opinion is itself just an opinion and is, therefore, worth exactly what their opinions are worth. Which is why I'm a bit confused about your reaction to me pointing out your rudeness. Your opinion is just as (in)valid as anyone else's so being rude to others is really not necessary.

No rudeness was intended, please move on, this is your nth post on the subject without really adding anything to the on-topic discussion, and frankly I'm just bored now. I have nothing else to say on the matter.

I already did express my opinion on the video when I said people could do whatever they wanted.

Great, then we agree.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I'm not upset at all, just a bit bored of this conversation. Yeah, people are entitled to their opinion.

I'm glad to see that you agree to that since before it wasn't at all clear you thought so.

Yes, the body mechanics are slightly different, as is the speed and the approach to patterns in general, but not sufficiently different to make it difficult to switch between the two. I think this is probably because my original instructors were ex-ITF folk, and brought some of that with them.

I'm always surprised when people say this.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

it is intended as a bit of FUN that doubles as a way to reach a non-Taekwondo audience. And that's what it did. This video was originally introduced to me by a friend who is not a martial artist but knew 'Gangnam Style'.

If I were thinking about joining TKD and saw this when I visited a school to watch a class, I would definitely NOT join. I'd be thinking, "oh god, I want a sport/martial art, not dancing".

By sport, I don't mean tournament sparring per se, but simply a physical activity that is challenging. I realise that ballroom dance is also called "dance sport", but dancing is not what I'd be looking for.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm surprised that you'd say Taekwondo and Taekwon-Do aren't that different. I practiced Taekwondo for a couple of years back in college and there were some pretty big differences...

Okay, I don't care about whether anyone wants to promote their art (or just have fun) with a silly dance parody. I am curious about the distinction being made here. Are you saying that Taekwondo (no hyphen) and Taekwon-Do (one hyphen) are two different arts? Really? What about Tae Kwon Do (spaces, no hyphens) and Tae-Kwon-Do (two hyphens)? Do you get a new art every time you vary the punctuation? How do you tell the difference if you are just talking rather than typing? Do you have to pronounce it fully - "Taekwon hyphen Do"?

Korean culture is more complicated than I realized.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Okay, I don't care about whether anyone wants to promote their art (or just have fun) with a silly dance parody. I am curious about the distinction being made here. Are you saying that Taekwondo (no hyphen) and Taekwon-Do (one hyphen) are two different arts? Really? What about Tae Kwon Do (spaces, no hyphens) and Tae-Kwon-Do (two hyphens)? Do you get a new art every time you vary the punctuation? How do you tell the difference if you are just talking rather than typing? Do you have to pronounce it fully - "Taekwon hyphen Do"?

Korean culture is more complicated than I realized.

I believe taekwon-do refers to ITF tkd and taekwondo is kkw tkd. If that is the case then they are two very different things.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I am curious about the distinction being made here. Are you saying that Taekwondo (no hyphen) and Taekwon-Do (one hyphen) are two different arts? Really? What about Tae Kwon Do (spaces, no hyphens) and Tae-Kwon-Do (two hyphens)? Do you get a new art every time you vary the punctuation?

All I'm saying is that after training in both of them I found them to be more than "slightly different."

Pax,

Chris

 

[drop bear]

In this case I still don't see the point of the video.



What you're saying here is you can say anything you want and it's not an insult. But that's not true. You can certainly say things in an insulting manner, which is what you did. If you don't recognize that fact then the problem lies with you.



The only misstatement of fact I see in post #1 is the statement that the video is somehow the work of the KKW. The rest of it is accurate. You can have your opinion that you weren't rude, but you're simply wrong.



It's a martial art.



I wasn't offended. I was simply pointing out the fact that you were being rude, which is contrary to the Korean culture which you say Taekwondo is spreading to form one world culture. But you also end by shifting focus onto others, like when you implied I went through life looking for something to be offended about. That also didn't offend me, it was simply wrong. You have an odd definition of not bickering about things, however.

Pax,

Chris

I saw the video where I otherwise wouldn't have so I got exposed to a bit of tkd.

So in that point I suppose the video worked.

 

[Rumy73]

Well folks, the video and the content of it are not the problem, it is your view that tkd is a martial art in the narrowest sense of the word. While partly about fighting, it is a sport and an athletic activity. In Korea, this is readily accepted. Kids learn it like kids in the USA learn basketball. Many have bb and are not very good, but it is a fun, stress-relieving activity. Serious "fighting-minded" ppl in Korea may study tkd but will look to other things. Koreans love fighting sports, though. Boxing and Muay Thai gyms are growing. I saw two of the latter on Jeju Island.

 

[sopraisso]

Okay, I don't care about whether anyone wants to promote their art (or just have fun) with a silly dance parody. I am curious about the distinction being made here. Are you saying that Taekwondo (no hyphen) and Taekwon-Do (one hyphen) are two different arts? Really? What about Tae Kwon Do (spaces, no hyphens) and Tae-Kwon-Do (two hyphens)? Do you get a new art every time you vary the punctuation? How do you tell the difference if you are just talking rather than typing? Do you have to pronounce it fully - "Taekwon hyphen Do"?

Korean culture is more complicated than I realized.

Tony, just to make it clearer: "taekwon-do" is today generally the way established for writing the name of ITF tae kwon do. "Taekwondo" is the way established for Kukkiwon tae kwon do. Writing with spaces and no hyphen tends to be often a way of trying to talk about the art with no further distinction, and it used to be written like this for some time in the past. Probably a few independent schools still use this or other ways to write. But the two main ways usually refer to the two main branches of the art. They do have quite a few differences (forms, competition rules, orgs and technical details), and more importantly, practitioners don't regard them as equal.

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[sopraisso]

I saw the video where I otherwise wouldn't have so I got exposed to a bit of tkd.

So in that point I suppose the video worked.

And what kind of impression did you have about taekwondo after seeing the vid?

As for me, if I were looking for a martial art and that vid was the first thing I saw about taekwondo, I would surely never take it. If I were looking for a playful activity to get fitter or loose weight, or to put my kids on to spend their energy... that would be probably more interesting than say... Okinawan karate.

But how does taekwondo wants to be seen? It can be argued that both aspects are possible, but I'm sure one aspect diminishes the confidence outside people put in the other -- or just completely ruins that confidence.

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[Gnarlie]

And what kind of impression did you have about taekwondo after seeing the vid?

As for me, if I were looking for a martial art and that vid was the first thing I saw about taekwondo, I would surely never take it. If I were looking for a playful activity to get fitter or loose weight, or to put my kids on to spend their energy... that would be probably more interesting than say... Okinawan karate.

But how does taekwondo wants to be seen? It can be argued that both aspects are possible, but I'm sure one aspect diminishes the confidence outside people put in the other -- or just completely ruins that confidence.

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Here are some questions that I can't get past in my mind:

Do you think it matters what Taekwondo is seen as?

Do you believe what it is seen as changes the truth of what it is?

Does how the art is perceived change the skills that you have?

Anecdotally, in my experience Taekwon-dance, sport sparring and breaking displays have attracted a larger proportion of people to the art than other, more martial aspects, because it looks like fun, and the people doing it look like they are having fun. That seems to be more attractive to a prospective 'joiner' than a group of angry-looking sweaty people throwing each other around and shouting, which can look a bit daunting / threatening.

I'd argue that the negative perception only really endures with people who already have some martial experience, and even then it's live and let live.

 

[Metal]

If I were thinking about joining TKD and saw this when I visited a school to watch a class, I would definitely NOT join. I'd be thinking, "oh god, I want a sport/martial art, not dancing".

That's like deciding to never join the Navy after seeing Village People's "In the Navy" video. ;-)

I guess anybody would realize that the Taekwon-Style video is a parody and wouldn't associate Taekwondo with just being some kind of dance.

 

[drop bear]

That's like deciding to never join the Navy after seeing Village People's "In the Navy" video. ;-)

I guess anybody would realize that the Taekwon-Style video is a parody and wouldn't associate Taekwondo with just being some kind of dance.

Or even this one.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-GktdwlWma0

Now someone will have to explain how that detracts from the serious job they do.

(Yes I am throwing out an obvious guilt trip)

 

[TKDTony2179]

I see you guys point and I didn't think it would be that much fussing over it. Yes, I rarely see a vid of ITF using a dance. I have seen older video of Jhoon Rhee using dance in his demos back in the day. I am just thinking that TKD is just leaning toward recreactional sport and we will soon have a generation of people that won't jack about the fighting art.

 

[Rumy73]

I see you guys point and I didn't think it would be that much fussing over it. Yes, I rarely see a vid of ITF using a dance. I have seen older video of Jhoon Rhee using dance in his demos back in the day. I am just thinking that TKD is just leaning toward recreactional sport and we will soon have a generation of people that won't jack about the fighting art.

However, when it comes to sparring. Is not wtf full contact and itf pulls punches?

 

[chrispillertkd]

However, when it comes to sparring. Is not wtf full contact and itf pulls punches?

Really, it depends on the level of competition you're talking about. The ITF does not officially have full contact sparring. If you compete in the WC's, however, you'll be fighting full contact. The ITF also has what is called the ITC (International Taekwon-Do Circuit) which is specifically full contact matches.

But just saying the WTF has full contact matches doesn't really answer the post to which you replied since dancekwondo isn't something the WTF is involved in. As people will often say here, the WTF is just a sports organization. It only sets rules for competitions and sanctions them. While lots of people refer to the WTF for every manner of thing that relates to Taekwondo its role is, relatively speaking, small. It doesn't touch on people promoting Taekwondo as a dance or aerobics (which I've also seen), or tricking, or etc., etc.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Rumy73]

Really, it depends on the level of competition you're talking about. The ITF does not officially have full contact sparring. If you compete in the WC's, however, you'll be fighting full contact. The ITF also has what is called the ITC (International Taekwon-Do Circuit) which is specifically full contact matches.

But just saying the WTF has full contact matches doesn't really answer the post to which you replied since dancekwondo isn't something the WTF is involved in. As people will often say here, the WTF is just a sports organization. It only sets rules for competitions and sanctions them. While lots of people refer to the WTF for every manner of thing that relates to Taekwondo its role is, relatively speaking, small. It doesn't touch on people promoting Taekwondo as a dance or aerobics (which I've also seen), or tricking, or etc., etc.

Pax,

Chris

I just looked itf wc rules. Sparring is described as light contact.http://www.tkd-itf.org/descargues/bajar.php?id=703

 

[chrispillertkd]

I just looked itf wc rules. Sparring is described as light contact.http://www.tkd-itf.org/descargues/bajar.php?id=703

I know how they're described. I'm also friends with several people who has fought in the WC's and am a Class A Umpire. Look if you think there's going to be "light contact" at the WC level I urge you to join the ITF, go to nationals, qualify for the WC's, and then fight yourself.

There is also the ITC, as I pointed out, if you're looking for rules that specify full contact competition under ITF rules.

I'm still not sure what you're point is about this, though.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Dirty Dog]

However, when it comes to sparring. Is not wtf full contact and itf pulls punches?

Pretty much completely wrong.

High level WTF or ITF competition is full contact. But the vast majority of sparring with either group is done with light to medium levels of contact. It's really unhealthy, not to mention stupid, to have people constantly trying to knock each other out.