another question

[granfire]

I know, this week I am full of it.

Anyhow found this browsing FaceBook, as usual the organization shall remain anonymous...

"Is the organization accredited with Korea?"
"yes, they went there in 2004, so they must be"

(I had heard about that trip, the hosts were said to have been less than gracious, according to some Korean speakers in the traveling group)

But considering there is no obvious real link to the Motherland of TKD this question made me both chuckle and scratch my head.

 

[dancingalone]

I know, this week I am full of it.

Anyhow found this browsing FaceBook, as usual the organization shall remain anonymous...

"Is the organization accredited with Korea?"
"yes, they went there in 2004, so they must be"

(I had heard about that trip, the hosts were said to have been less than gracious, according to some Korean speakers in the traveling group)

But considering there is no obvious real link to the Motherland of TKD this question made me both chuckle and scratch my head.

I am not sure what "accredited with Korea" means, but I believe the South Korean government only officially recognizes 1 taekwondo certifying body and that is the Kukkiwon. Anyone else seeking the Korean connection has to achieve it in another way, such as lineage, etc.

 

[granfire]

that means everybody is, because all trace their roots down to the General, one way or another....

gave me a good chuckle tho...

I never connected the trip to be of any more meaning than the big wigs wanting to go see Korea.

 

[dancingalone]

In some other styles, it may still make sense to seek instruction from a qualified native. I don't believe this is the case with tae kwon do. There are excellent TKD teachers all over the globe. No need to look for a Korean connection, unless we just want some weird Asian-phile affirmation. And I say that as an Asian myself.

 

[andyjeffries]

that means everybody is, because all trace their roots down to the General, one way or another....

How do you work that out? Most of the Kukkiwon black belts in the world do not have General Choi in their lineage. Some of us don't even believe General Choi had much do with the founding of Taekwondo technically, but was there as a military influence and promoter.

 

[granfire]

How do you work that out? Most of the Kukkiwon black belts in the world do not have General Choi in their lineage. Some of us don't even believe General Choi had much do with the founding of Taekwondo technically, but was there as a military influence and promoter.

Since he strong armed the other guys. No General - no TKD
(I was not 100% serious about that)

 

[andyjeffries]

Since he strong armed the other guys. No General - no TKD
(I was not 100% serious about that)

I don't really know which bit you weren't being 100% serious about - and I'm English too so I should get your sense of humour...

I disagree that he strong armed the other guys, GM Son Duk Sung wasn't strong-armed, he publicly revoked General Choi's Taekwondo grade in a Seoul newspaper!

All the reports at the time seemed to indicate that Gen Choi didn't hold rank in one of the main Korean arts and was involved in the naming committee because of his position in the military rather than his seniority in martial arts. Even when the Oh Do Kwan was founded, the history goes that GM Nam was the head instructor and Gen Choi was there for his political sway.

Therefore it still begs the question, except for coming up with the name and popularising the art, what did he actually do regarding founding it?

Also, do many black belts actually believe that he founded the art?

Controversial I know, but let's get some conversation/debate going ;-)

 

[DMcHenry]

General Choi suggested the name change of the art they were already doing (Tang Soo Do/Kong Soo Do) that went to Tae Soo Do then Tae Kwon Do. He was only 1 of about 9 kwan founders (5 original).

So I too don't believe everyone can trace their liniage back to the General.

 

[granfire]

I don't really know which bit you weren't being 100% serious about - and I'm English too so I should get your sense of humour...

I disagree that he strong armed the other guys, GM Son Duk Sung wasn't strong-armed, he publicly revoked General Choi's Taekwondo grade in a Seoul newspaper!

All the reports at the time seemed to indicate that Gen Choi didn't hold rank in one of the main Korean arts and was involved in the naming committee because of his position in the military rather than his seniority in martial arts. Even when the Oh Do Kwan was founded, the history goes that GM Nam was the head instructor and Gen Choi was there for his political sway.

Therefore it still begs the question, except for coming up with the name and popularising the art, what did he actually do regarding founding it?

Also, do many black belts actually believe that he founded the art?

Controversial I know, but let's get some conversation/debate going ;-)

I think we debate this every month around the full moon!

I think that without the General's worldly power (as general) there would not be a unified (lol, right, we are so unified), well at least one name to cover it all.
Whether or not he could actually get his legs up above belt level, I don't know. But he used his cloud to crush the other egos (from what I read they where plenty and plenty big) and basically forced the unification on them via army.
So yeah, everybody traces his lineage back to the good old General...and we a re all Koreans under the skin.


But to get back to the original question/answer:
As far as I know there is no connection to the Motherland. Originally the organization had one or 2 real Koreans as founders, but they left soon enough.
So the 'accredited' part made me chuckle...especially when the only proof is a trip....
I mean, recognition with the KKW costs more than any fee I ever paid...so I don't think they'd hand me a BB certificate...

 

[Earl Weiss]

>>>>>>>>>>>>
I disagree that he strong armed the other guys, GM Son Duk Sung wasn't strong-armed, he publicly revoked General Choi's Taekwondo grade in a Seoul newspaper!

All the reports at the time seemed to indicate that Gen Choi didn't hold rank in one of the main Korean arts and was involved in the naming committee because of his position in the military rather than his seniority in martial arts. Even when the Oh Do Kwan was founded, the history goes that GM Nam was the head instructor and Gen Choi was there for his political sway.

Therefore it still begs the question, except for coming up with the name and popularising the art, what did he actually do regarding founding it?

Also, do many black belts actually believe that he founded the art?

Your a little light on your history.

See for example:
http://371078645507472465-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/ntkdacad/files/NamTaeHiTKDTimesJan.2000.pdf?attachauth=ANoY7cqDRoyt2DmsS4inbAzc1yJpOSQv0zHsfjp7F-ITHKykYLwvlryJKXimc_uo67pD15KVT4RhpzqnqIp6xblSp_xnUU7AysE-cYaAmkxn0FlHaS7Jh2htOLK9lReObqQ88khcyB6Sq2mS12w8h8yJT88DXDuCcRobLXSH-mHNPh28BvkqanbRV9ODR7ecXxYtxVzrxTRXO9cwHEDmy3fAncNzUqF1OlfYfqjdVGgyGz8OvNLWC-4%3D&attredirects=0

With regard to the infamous newspaper ad by GM Son who was really pissed at General Choi because so many Chung Do Kwan Luminaries left him and followed General Choi, why don't you tell us:

1. Who else did the ad say was booted from the Chung Do Kwan.
2. What happened to those other two Chung Do Kwan members shortly thereafter?
3. What happened to GM Son shortly thereafter.

Your history about GM Nam's role is accurate in that he was the Hands on instructor. But, he spent time with General Choi refining what was to be taught and then he taught it. Why did he teach directly isntead of General Choi? Because it was not what a General would do. Involve himself with the enlisted men that way. How do I know? I asked GM Nam that question and that is what he told me. Where did you get your misstatement of history from?

What did General Choi do. Read "a Killing art" for some interesting history.

But a synopsis would be: Headed the 29th infantry division recruiting top martial art Talent, training them in a new single system that could be taught on a wide scale, training them as instructors. Used government and military resources to travel for demonstrations to impress and recruit students. Used the same resources to dispatch instructors. Used the same resources to recruit other instructors such as Jhoon Rhee.

From the late 1950's or so to 1973 or so if you were doing Tae Kwon Do, it was 90+% likely you were doing General Choi's system. Other Korean systems and heads tended to reject the name and system until it became so wildly popular they decided to capitalize on the use of the name.

Even after 1973 many Dojangs with the WTF flag on the wall used Gneral Choi's system (Trained at one from 1975-1977) because that was what most instructors recruited by the KKW knew.

 

[Earl Weiss]

>>>>>>>>

Whether or not he could actually get his legs up above belt level, I don't know...

I know. I (and many others who attended his courses) saw him put a twist kick on the chin of someone taller than him several times at 75+ years of age. Without warm up. In street shoes and clothes.

 

[granfire]

I know. I (and many others who attended his courses) saw him put a twist kick on the chin of someone taller than him several times at 75+ years of age. Without warm up. In street shoes and clothes.

Those feats are awesome to behold.


Anyhow.
I did skim on the history.
I figured after the first two pages where it was headed. ( a room full of guys with egos the size of Texas...)
While I do find it interesting I don't have the time to devote to it to peel back layers upon layers of myths, legends and other stories. The really interesting parts are usually not covered by anything other than tales, like the pre-occupational times.

As it is, and I don't give it much more than a passing giggle, it seemed to me that the ego of the General was paired with enough real power to actually make strides in the theory (naming etc). Did he practice the precise art, did he hold rank? **shrug** He seemed basically to have told the Kwans that he, the Army, named this (the style) TKD, take it or leave it. Not sure if they had a draft, but it seems that over a short period of time pretty much all able-bodied men went through 'his' school...thus browbeating the other guys into the unification.

But the general (no pun intended) point is that somehow - through lineage - we are all connected to Korea, be it General or other master.(Like all Thoroughbred race horses trace back to three foundation sires...)

I really did not mean to start an indepth discussion about the General's short comings. I am rather sorry I mentioned him in a light hearted manner...

I was more aiming for the 'accredited' part...

 

[andyjeffries]

Your a little light on your history.

I'm sure. I'm relatively young in Taekwondo and am probably as biased from my Kukkiwon standpoint as you are from your ITF standpoint so I'll see the information that bolsters my point and ignore the rest. Of course I try not to, but I am human

With regard to the infamous newspaper ad by GM Son who was really pissed at General Choi because so many Chung Do Kwan Luminaries left him and followed General Choi, why don't you tell us:

1. Who else did the ad say was booted from the Chung Do Kwan.

HYUN Jong Myung, UHM Woon Kyu, NAM Tae Hi

However, regardless of being kicked out of CDK, my point was that Gen Choi's rank was honourary and revoked. Regardless of Son's authority to decide who is the head or even a member of CDK, he signed the honourary certificate (rather than promoting Gen Choi in the normal way) and he cancelled it.

2. What happened to those other two Chung Do Kwan members shortly thereafter?

You tell me. It seems that at the 1961 Unification Conference that UHM Woon Kyu was a representative of the Chung Do Kwan again.

3. What happened to GM Son shortly thereafter.

Good question, I do not know the answer so hopefully you will reply and fill me in - I'm guessing he fell from grace with the CDK. However, that does not detract from the certificate he signed being revoked.

Your history about GM Nam's role is accurate in that he was the Hands on instructor. But, he spent time with General Choi refining what was to be taught and then he taught it. Why did he teach directly isntead of General Choi? Because it was not what a General would do. Involve himself with the enlisted men that way. How do I know? I asked GM Nam that question and that is what he told me. Where did you get your misstatement of history from?

From "A Modern History of Taekwondo" and various conversations over the years. I understand your source is closer to the issue, however that doesn't mean that his position is less biased - I mean of course he would stick to his guns that Gen Choi founded the art.

Also, if you were coming up with a reason retrospectively of a reason why he didn't teach - is that not a convenient reason (even though he went on to teach a lot)?

What did General Choi do. Read "a Killing art" for some interesting history.

I understood that some senior Kukki-Taekwondo masters had already discredited the version of history presented in that book, although I haven't read it myself yet. The author of the book is quoted as saying "many men created and founded Tae Kwon Do, as I show in my book, A Killing Art".

Gen Choi being a senior man in the military was important in the Korean culture and promoting a Korean Martial Art, but I see him as someone who helped make the art famous by lending his name/voice - not someone with the technical ability to develop the art.

Alex's argument for considering Gen Choi the "main founder" are apparently:

1) He and GM Nam came up with the name - but there is also hearsay that GM Son passed it to him on a bit of paper for him to announce

2) He sent instructors out to promote TKD internationally

3) He founded the ITF - Alex argues that this was 7 years before the WTF so that's important, however the founding of the ITF was a step on the road to globalisation of Taekwondo, however is it really the most important one?

4) He wrote books about TKD

5) He created the techniques

Of the reasons 1-4 are in keeping with his position as a political figurehead or public face of the art, only reason 5 is the one that defines his technical ability and even then - given that he only had an honourary grade in TKD what gave him the ability to create the techniques rather than document those existing ones? Particularly when most of the movements have history in other arts anyway.

Sure, he came up with some patterns for the ITF, but hey, I could create some patterns. No one would do them, but if I was a political figurehead of an international organisation then I could rally some people to do them. That's not creating the techniques or defining the art.

But a synopsis would be: Headed the 29th infantry division recruiting top martial art Talent, training them in a new single system that could be taught on a wide scale, training them as instructors.

Hang on, did he train them? I thought you said earlier that he trained GM Nam who then did the training? If so, we only have GM Nam's statement that it was the case - how do we know that GM Nam wasn't the real technical basis and Gen Choi was the public face, but that GM Nam is not just being typically asian in wanting to save face for someone he considers his senior?

Used government and military resources to travel for demonstrations to impress and recruit students.

How much did he travel and demonstrate? Was that not his group of Oh Do Kwan/ITF instructors that he sent out? I'm sure he used the resources to do this, again consistent with the viewpoint that he was a political figurehead/public face to the art.

Used the same resources to dispatch instructors. Used the same resources to recruit other instructors such as Jhoon Rhee.

Jhoon Rhee graduated from the Chungdokwan under LEE Won Kuk. He is then attributed to training under GM NAM. Again, this shows that while Gen Choi may have "recruit"ed him, that may be as in used his political power to bring him to the organisation where he was trained by someone technical.

From the late 1950's or so to 1973 or so if you were doing Tae Kwon Do, it was 90+% likely you were doing General Choi's system. Other Korean systems and heads tended to reject the name and system until it became so wildly popular they decided to capitalize on the use of the name.

As I wasn't born until 1974 I can't argue from personal experience. However, from my understanding of the history I do agree outside of Korea. There were a number of competing non-unified kwans in operation until 1960. Then they unified under a single martial art, named Taekwondo (because Gen Choi pushed the name and was made the president of the KTA, again not inconsistent with being a political figurehead - given the longest reigning head of the KTA was Dr Kim, Un Yong who is also not a senior Taekwondoin). It then changed name to Taesoodo before becoming Taekwondo again when Gen Choi was made president again and reforced the name change to the one he preferred. So I agree on the rejecting the name part.

Gen Choi also used military and government resources (as you stated) to send instructors of his system abroad (resources that most Kwan leaders would not have had) so I agree outside of Korea, you most likely were doing General Choi's system.

However, inside Korea I'm not so sure this is the case (and I don't know if we'll ever have facts to argue this one properly).

Even after 1973 many Dojangs with the WTF flag on the wall used Gneral Choi's system (Trained at one from 1975-1977) because that was what most instructors recruited by the KKW knew.

Again though this isn't surprising. Assuming you're talking outside of Korea, most of the instructors internationally based would have been following Gen Choi/GM Nam's system and when they switched they would continue to teach what they knew (at least for a while until the Kukkiwon changes everyone to the same standard - this is still happening now). This isn't surprising, is it?

What you've written though is not at all inconsistent with my belief that Gen Choi was a very important person in Taekwondo's history, but not from a technical point of view but as a political figurehead/public face.

It depends what you mean by "founding the art"? I accepted (in that post a few back) that he named it and publicised it - but I have yet to hear evidence of his superior technical ability and therefore believe that most people should not consider him in their technical lineage.

(By the way this is all written in a happy tone - I enjoy/love a good debate and am not trying to hurt people, just to argue/debate with other people so I learn more and either change or solidify my opinions)

 

[Earl Weiss]

I'm sure. I'm relatively young in Taekwondo and am probably as biased from my Kukkiwon standpoint as you are from your ITF standpoint so I'll see the information that bolsters my point and ignore the rest. Of course I try not to, but I am human



)

Thats the first problem. You see information. I started TKD in 1972 so I lived it and have spoken first hand with 3 people who were doing what later became TKD and were in/ at the demo in 1953 (perhaps 1954) before Pres. Rhee where he empowered General Choi to develop and teach MA to the military.

 

[Earl Weiss]

HYUN Jong Myung, UHM Woon Kyu, NAM Tae Hi

However, regardless of being kicked out of CDK, my point was that Gen Choi's rank was honourary and revoked. Regardless of Son's authority to decide who is the head or even a member of CDK, he signed the honourary certificate (rather than promoting Gen Choi in the normal way) and he cancelled it.



You tell me. It seems that at the 1961 Unification Conference that UHM Woon Kyu was a representative of the Chung Do Kwan again.

Again, you are a little light on the facts. GM Uhm wasn't a representative but the next president of the CDK quickly replacing GM Son who was mysteriously gone from the CDK after the ad. GM Uhm later headed the KKW an GM Nam remains a respected member. Does this give you a hint of what th CDK thought of GM sons actions?

 

[Earl Weiss]

From "A Modern History of Taekwondo" and various conversations over the years. I understand your source is closer to the issue, however that doesn't mean that his position is less biased - I mean of course he would stick to his guns that Gen Choi founded the art.

Also, if you were coming up with a reason retrospectively of a reason why he didn't teach - is that not a convenient reason (even though he went on to teach a lot)?



)

"A Modern History of TKD" is a KKW / WTF propoganda piece. Do you also accept that TKD is 2000 years old?

 

[andyjeffries]

Thats the first problem. You see information. I started TKD in 1972 so I lived it and have spoken first hand with 3 people who were doing what later became TKD and were in/ at the demo in 1953 (perhaps 1954) before Pres. Rhee where he empowered General Choi to develop and teach MA to the military.

(edit - removed post about you not replying to the points, you're obviously doing it post by post, apologies)

Did you talk to anyone from the other side of the debate who was around at that time?

 

[andyjeffries]

"A Modern History of TKD" is a KKW / WTF propoganda piece. Do you also accept that TKD is 2000 years old?

I'd argue that General Choi is a propaganda piece and the Killing Art, likewise. That document though is taken from minutes taken from meetings and written by at least one guy that was present at the meetings. From that point of view, it's at least as valid as the equivalent viewpoint coming from the ITF.

I no more believe that Taekwondo is 2000 years old than I do that the earth is 6000 years old!

 

[Earl Weiss]

I understood that some senior Kukki-Taekwondo masters had already discredited the version of history presented in that book, although I haven't read it myself yet. The author of the book is quoted as saying "many men created and founded Tae Kwon Do, as I show in my book, A Killing Art".

So which is it? KKW dscredit the book or accept what the author states? Or do they simply accept whjat they like and discredit what they don't?

Read the book and a doxen or so more and see what hangs together. We can have semantic arguments all day long about "Founder" "Father" . In the USA we refer to George Washington as "The Father of the Country" . This does not mean no one else was involved. General Choi does not claim this and writes about it extensively in his memoirs.

 

[Earl Weiss]

.

Sure, he came up with some patterns for the ITF, but hey, I could create some patterns. No one would do them, but if I was a political figurehead of an international organisation then I could rally some people to do them. That's not creating the techniques or defining the art.



)

Your characterisation is so inaccurate even General Choi in his work (Published prior to KKW / WTF formation) explicitly disclaims it!
He makes the analogy to inventing the wheel or discovering fire in that no one country or person can takesole credit.
What he did was what Kano and Funakoshi did before him. Establish a technical syllabus codifying technical parameters from among the existing variations.

So, If you say this is not "Creating techniques or defining an art" tell us what you tink qualifies and how those such as Funakoshi or Kano would or would not qualify in this regard. Of course if your opinion is that they wul not qualify as creators or founders then of course your opinion would be the same as to Gneral Choi. Equaly inaccurate but still wrong.