"American" Karate -- Just what is it?

[SPX]

So I have seen the term "American Karate" bandied about for years, but having never trained at a school that advertised themselves as such, I've never fully understood it. So what exactly is "American" Karate and why would karate ever be labeled so?

 

[Grenadier]

That's a question that will have a very, very board range of answers.

I'll give a couple, based on what I've seen in my lifetime.

1) American Karate can simply mean a system of Karate that was formed in the USA, by either modifying or combining various martial arts. This use of the term does not convey any level of quality, or lack thereof, when it comes to describing the system or its methods.

There are quite a few well known figures whose Karate can certainly be classifed under this category. For example, you have Robert A. Trias, who formed his own system of Karate called "Shuri Ryu," and as a result, made a Karate system in America that utilized a lot of the techniques in Okinawan systems, while also blending in a good bit of the Japanese Karate systems. While some may call it an Okinawan Karate system, it can also be called an American system as well. It's a well-respected system, and has produced a good number of excellent Karate-Ka.

You also have Ed Parker, who created the American Kenpo system. It still utilizes much of the Chinese Kenpo, yet all terms are taught in English. This system has also produced a good number of excellent Karate-Ka.


2) It could be a derogatory term, used to describe various Karate schools in the USA, that have de-emphasized traditional methods, although it's more likely to refer to those schools that become very lax in standards, essentially teaching junk martial arts. An unfair label, of course, but I'm sure that other countries have their own names for nonstandard or substandard schools.

 

[SPX]

Thanks for the reply.

I remember about 20 years or so ago there were a chain of schools in the Memphis, TN area . . . Don Crenshaw's USA Karate. Curious to see what would come up, I googled his name and found that the chain apparently still exists (though under other leadership at this point, it appears).

I looked through the website and found this paragraph:

With over 22 years experience in the mid-south our schools have developed a System known as “American Karate." This system utilizes the three ranges of combat. The first range is punching and kicking, we teach an exciting combination of Boxing and kickboxing to enhance the student’s physical ability. The second range is close quarter combat we teach a traditional Karate that utilizes holds and grabs along with stances and footwork, and finally the third range which is ground fighting, we teach a combination of grappling and judo.

Then I looked up American Karate on Wikipedia and found this, which I thought was interesting:

American Karate is generic term usually referring to hybrid martial arts systems that employs cross-training throughout many of the traditional Asian styles. . .

Critics suggest it is a watered-down version of authentic styles popularized by Americans who never stayed with their original teachers long enough to truly understand the intricacies of the art. They went out on their own and claimed to practice an “American” approach to karate but in reality were only able to teach the most rudimentary techniques.

Supporters, on the other hand, claim that Asian instructors are bound by traditions that are both antiquated and impractical in the modern world. Americans, the argument goes, are open to discovering modern methods of training without misplaced loyalties to a certain nationalistic approach, such as the Japanese vs. Okinawan martial styles.

Some other investigation seems to suggest that "American Karate" is often associated with sporting karate activities, especially "tricking" and combining acrobatics with fancy kicks and other techniques.

I figured I would ask around on here to see how others define, or think of, American Karate, and to see if anyone had any experience with a school that labeled itself as such.

 

[Grenadier]

I remember about 20 years or so ago there were a chain of schools in the Memphis, TN area . . . Don Crenshaw's USA Karate. Curious to see what would come up, I googled his name and found that the chain apparently still exists (though under other leadership at this point, it appears).

Don Crenshaw still seems to own some schools. I'm guessing that he might have sold / given ownership to his senior instruction staff, though.

They term of "American Karate" is another one of the very many versions out there. This particular system seems to be a mixture of boxing, judo, wrestling, and Shotokan Karate. Not unusual, since a lot of those who teach their own version of "American Karate" combine multiple arts.

I cannot, however, comment on the quality of the system, or the proficiency of the instructors, without having more first-hand knowledge of their operations.

Some other investigation seems to suggest that "American Karate" is often associated with sporting karate activities, especially "tricking" and combining acrobatics with fancy kicks and other techniques.

It all depends on the type of sporting karate activities. For example, the USA-NKF models itself after what goes on with the traditional WKF. For all intents and purposes, it could be argued that in some cases, the USA-NKF models itself after the rest of the world.

Traditional competition occurs, where acrobatics and flash aren't going to win, but rather, solid, fundamentally good technique will win the day. For that matter, at the regional level, a lot of those tournaments are USA-NKF regional qualifiers, but are open to other systems. It's no surprise that the characters who go running around, jumping and spinning repeatedly in the air, screaming all sorts of war cries, and swinging around ultralight balsawood weapons, are going to finish last each time.

Or, those who have poor control of their bodies, and cannot generate any real power using their lower bodies to drive the upper body (as it should be), are going to be seen as having poor fundamental technique.

As for other organizations? Your mileage may vary, of course. Some cater to the XMA crowd, where LED-lit acrylic weapons are the norm in the weapons kata divisions, or where freestyle kata might be performed. Others model themselves in a similar manner as the USA-NKF does, and some might fall somewhere in between.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm not going to get into a 'better' or 'worse' argument in this thread, and I'd respectfully suggest that no one else should either. As noted, there is no one definition for the term. I've competed against some students of "American Karate" and they were talented competitors at point-sparring. I cannot speak to any of their other abilities or lack of same, nor do I intend to.

This is the group I competed against:

http://www.dtkarate.com/about_us.html

I am an Isshin-Ryu student, not American Karate. But it is what it is. We all have our own methods and traditions.

 

[SPX]

It's no surprise that the characters who go running around, jumping and spinning repeatedly in the air, screaming all sorts of war cries, and swinging around ultralight balsawood weapons, are going to finish last each time.

LOL. Indeed.

For what it's worth, I actually enjoy watching those guys from time to time. They definitely have a certain skillset that I don't have and it's impressive to see. After a while though it all starts to look the same and at the end of the day you walk away with the feeling that it's mostly just fluff.

 

[SPX]

I'm not going to get into a 'better' or 'worse' argument in this thread, and I'd respectfully suggest that no one else should either. As noted, there is no one definition for the term. I've competed against some students of "American Karate" and they were talented competitors at point-sparring. I cannot speak to any of their other abilities or lack of same, nor do I intend to.

This is the group I competed against:

http://www.dtkarate.com/about_us.html

I am an Isshin-Ryu student, not American Karate. But it is what it is. We all have our own methods and traditions.

Was this recent that you competed against these guys?

I took a look at the site and one thing I noticed was that it never really talks about the kind of karate that they teach. And the page about the adult program doesn't mention karate at all except in the name of the school, and instead focuses on their "Self-Defense" program, which appears to be a combination of Krav Maga, Muay Thai and BJJ. I wonder if that means that they feel like their karate is not up to par for self-defense.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Was this recent that you competed against these guys?

Yes, just a few months ago. They sponsored a tournament in Ohio, and I drove down for it. It was pretty small; held in a local church.

I took a look at the site and one thing I noticed was that it never really talks about the kind of karate that they teach. And the page about the adult program doesn't mention karate at all except in the name of the school, and instead focuses on their "Self-Defense" program, which appears to be a combination of Krav Maga, Muay Thai and BJJ. I wonder if that means that they feel like their karate is not up to par for self-defense.

I told you, this is not the place to disrespect other styles. Please stop that. We don't 'war' here, call out other styles, or put them down.

I spoke with Dan Turner, who hosted the tournament; good guy. He did not name a style, he just calls his karate 'American Karate' and leaves it at that. I don't feel qualified - and I doubt you are either - to tell whether or not it is 'worthy' as a self-defense style.

As I mentioned, I am a student of a traditional Okinawan style of karate. There is a definite lineage, distinct teachings, and one more or less knows what one is getting with this sort of training. It's much more based on the person teaching when the training is not based on a given style or lineage; it could be good, bad, indifferent. But then again, so are many styles of martial arts; even the style is a 'known' style with a lineage, there is no guarantee that a given instructor is up to par; or that a given student can learn what is being taught.

Here in the Detroit area, there are many styles taught. Some of them are Okinawan, or Korean, or Chinese traditional type styles. Some are clearly mixtures of other styles. Some I have no idea whatsoever; I suspect they're more-or-less made up by their instructors. However, it's not for me to say if they are or are not effective in teaching self-defense; I suspect the proof is in the pudding. In my experience competing against students of these training facilities, I've learned to respect their sparring abilities. Some say that this is not self-defense, and that's certainly true. I can only comment, however, on what I have experienced.

My recommendation is that if a person prefers to learn a definite style, they should do that, and not waste a lot of time and energy trying to apply metrics to unknowns.

 

[SPX]

I told you, this is not the place to disrespect other styles. Please stop that. We don't 'war' here, call out other styles, or put them down.

I don't think I did that at all.

I looked at the website and made an observation. I wasn't saying anything about the style at all . . . I was asking a question. Do you feel that my question was not legitimate?

I don't feel qualified - and I doubt you are either - to tell whether or not it is 'worthy' as a self-defense style.

I said that I wonder if THEY feel that way, considering in their adult self-defense program they appear to go to other arts instead of sticking with their karate. It's all in the link that you posted.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't think I did that at all.

You would be mistaken.

 

[SPX]

Look.

You posted a link. If you click on the link and then click on "Adult Martial Arts" then you get a paragraph about how their program will increase your fitness level and offer self-defense skills.

Then it says:

We're proud to offer our "Rock Your World" curriculum, where you can learn these valuable skills:

FANTASTIC SELF DEFENSE- You'll learn real world tactics to defend yourself, and your family, with our Krav Maga program. The program layout allows for quick development of the skills you need for this purpose.

FANTASTIC STRIKING- When you need to do major damage, our Muay Thai Kickboxing program is just the ticket. This program will take your talents at kicking, punching, knee and elbow striking to the very top. UFC fighters depend on these techniques to win their fights.

FANTASTIC GRAPPLING: This program, which is based in Brazilian Jui Jitsu and Submission Grappling, will help you develop the floor moves you need to restrain your opponent. These skills can be used for self defense or competition, depending on your personal choice. Though these skill are also popular among UFC fighters, they are very practical, even for the average citizen.

The only place Karate is mentioned on the whole page is in the name of the school.

So I asked, does that mean that they do not feel that their karate (or perhaps karate in general) is good for self-defense? That's a question--not a statement--based upon an observation about a link that YOU posted. I don't see why it's a problem that I would make that observation. If you had never competed against these guys and just stumbled across the page would YOU not wonder the same thing?

If you interpreted what I said as any kind of attack, then you misunderstood.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So I asked, does that mean that they do not feel that their karate (or perhaps karate in general) is good for self-defense?

That is not a question, just because you put a question mark at the end of it. That is a statement of belief. You're making a statement and looking for a challenge. And I told you, we do not do that here.

That's a question--not a statement--based upon an observation about a link that YOU posted. I don't see why it's a problem that I would make that observation. If you had never competed against these guys and just stumbled across the page would YOU not wonder the same thing?

As I stated, neither you nor I are qualified to answer that 'question'. Why don't you call Dan Turner up and ask him if this is something you feel you need to know? All I can comment upon is what I have experienced; I have sparred some of his students, and they were good at it. That's all I know. I can not tell from a few lines of boilerplate text whether or not they teach effective self-defense in their dojo; and neither can you.

If you interpreted what I said as any kind of attack, then you misunderstood.

I was born at night, but not last night.

 

[SPX]

Okay, two things:

1. It could be a school that teaches karate for sport and other stuff for self-defense. That's what I was getting at.

2. I'm going to check out this school next week and, as long there are not glaring problems, will probably be joining. . .

http://pinnacle.hurdman.org/home

. . . so I obviously don't have a bias against schools that place a high degree of emphasis on sport karate or (check their schedule) schools that have a self-defense program that is separate from their karate program.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Okay, two things:

1. It could be a school that teaches karate for sport and other stuff for self-defense. That's what I was getting at.

No, that is not what you were getting at. You said "I wonder if that means that they feel like their karate is not up to par for self-defense." Not "do they teach karate," but "is their self-defense training sub-par?" And as I stated now three times, neither you nor I are qualified to answer that question based on their website.

It could be that we're just misunderstanding each other. I do not think there is anything that can be gleaned from a martial arts training facility's website. They may state their style and lineage; or they may not. And whether nor not they claim proficiency in this or that style or method, that doesn't mean they have it. And if they have it, it doesn't mean they can teach it. And if they can teach it, it doesn't mean a given student will learning effectively.

I have learned by simply sparring in point competitions that it doesn't really matter what the 'style' taught happens to be; or what their website looks like. It's all down to the quality of the instruction and the ability of the students, and that's not to be found on a website. If you're asking if a given school is more sports or self-defense oriented based on what's on their website, you might be in for a bit of a surprise.

The website you linked to lists the instructors as Yip Man. It also does not list any given style that I can see, nor does it state what styles the instructors are trained or certified in. I found one of the instructors on Facebook; he's got a lot of 'affiliations', but no particular style listed, no instructors, no lineage, no certifications. But again, and in my opinion, that doesn't mean all that much. As you indicated, you have to go and see.

 

[SPX]

No, that is not what you were getting at. You said "I wonder if that means that they feel like their karate is not up to par for self-defense." Not "do they teach karate," but "is their self-defense training sub-par?" And as I stated now three times, neither you nor I are qualified to answer that question based on their website.

I didn't say either of us could answer it. Call it rhetorical.

And I never asked, "is their self-defense training sub-par." I said I wonder if they feel that their karate is sub-par for self-defense . . . which is why they have an entirely separate course specifically labeled as a "self-defense" course that utilizes the arts that are listed: Krav Maga, Muay Thai, BJJ.

Really the question is simply: Why? Why have this separate SD program instead of teaching their karate for SD purposes? Is it because they feel like this other combination is styles is more appropriate? Is it because they feel like it will attract more adult students by teaching these other styles, and therefore increase revenue?

Obviously neither you nor I know. But this is a discussion board, so I was making an observation and hoping to discuss it. I thought it would be interesting to hear different posters' opinions on why they feel that such a decision would be made.

Maybe I should reword the question:

If you (the general you -- any poster who wants to answer) were running a karate school, would you have a separate self-defense program in addition to standard karate training? Why or why not?

It could be that we're just misunderstanding each other.

Well I know that I certainly feel misunderstood, and to be honest, after having made attempts to explain myself, it's starting to insult me that you keep telling me what it is that I mean and don't mean.

The website you linked to lists the instructors as Yip Man.

Yeah, I don't know what that's all about. Or the Latin. I assume it's some kind of mistake.

It also does not list any given style that I can see, nor does it state what styles the instructors are trained or certified in.

I'm not finding certifications etc. But as for styles, it does say:

"Our school offers training in Tae Kwon Do (a Korean art), Shotokan (a Japanese art), TMA (a self-defense art), American Freestyle (that's the kicks & tricks of the movies!), weapons training, and mixed martial arts (grappling or ground fighting)."

It also says, for whatever it's worth: ". . . we are currently ranked as the #1 Sport Karate School in the US by NBL (National Blackbelt League) and the SKIL (Sport Karate International League) Amateur Circuit."

As for the latter statement, I can at least say that the school came highly recommended to me by an acquaintance on another forum. That's how I found out about it in the first place.

As you indicated, you have to go and see.

Indeed. And I should be doing that either this week or next. I intend to sit down and have a long conversation with them and should get some answers on a lot of these concerns.

 

[kenpo tiger]

I've found throughout my martial arts journey that it is extremely important to know that your master instructor is still training and learning new things. That said, if the art s/he teaches is a *fit* for you, it doesn't really matter what *style* it is -- as Bill stated above: "it doesn't really matter what the 'style' taught happens to be; or what their website looks like. It's all down to the quality of the instruction and the ability of the students, and that's not to be found on a website. If you're asking if a given school is more sports or self-defense oriented based on what's on their website, you might be in for a bit of a surprise."

Some people train in martial arts in order to compete. Others train for self-confidence and self-fulfillment.
Only you can judge if you're getting out of it what you put into it.

 

[SPX]

BTW, just another observation:

Turner's school must be affiliated with a group/org that has come up with a standardized curriculum/programs.

Compare:


http://www.dtkarate.com

and

http://www.karatememphis.com

I knew I had seen all that somewhere before.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Maybe I should reword the question:

If you (the general you -- any poster who wants to answer) were running a karate school, would you have a separate self-defense program in addition to standard karate training? Why or why not?

Me? No. In our school, there is only Isshin-Ryu karate. Our dojo does not have any emphasis on competition, although some of our students (like me) like to compete. It is not a requirement; sparring for one-point competitions is not specifically taught. We only teach Isshin-Ryu. What would *I* want to teach? No clue. Isshin-Ryu, I guess. Doesn't matter much, I won't live long enough to reach instructor status.

Well I know that I certainly feel misunderstood, and to be honest, after having made attempts to explain myself, it's starting to insult me that you keep telling me what it is that I mean and don't mean.

Your wording is not unlike those who have come here in the past and immediately started up by trying to get others to slam this style or that school. You're new, so you have no track record. All I can say is that we don't do that here. But since you're new, you probably did not know how many trolls come trolling around making "XYZ art is really a scam, huh?" or "I think sport karate isn't really karate, what do you think?" When I start reading threads like that, I pretty much know where it's going. If you're not one of those sorts, then I apologize. But you sure came off that way.

Yeah, I don't know what that's all about. Or the Latin. I assume it's some kind of mistake.

I assumed it's a boilerplate website for generic 'karate schools' and the owner is still in the process of filling in the blanks. But that's kind of what I mean; words on a web page mean pretty much nothing at all. Anyone can claim anything.

I'm not finding certifications etc. But as for styles, it does say:

"Our school offers training in Tae Kwon Do (a Korean art), Shotokan (a Japanese art), TMA (a self-defense art), American Freestyle (that's the kicks & tricks of the movies!), weapons training, and mixed martial arts (grappling or ground fighting)."

Yes, I saw that after I posted. They still aren't saying what it is that qualifies them to teach these arts. And if you want my *personal* opinion, few people of a young age are qualified to teach one of the arts above; if a person is claiming to be qualified to teach them all and they are not on social security, I tend to doubt that. But that's me. Nothing means anything except the actual quality of the instruction. My inner BS detector would be staying away from that place like the plague. But that's me. Again, my opinion holds no weight; I do not know those people, I can't offer any useful opinion on their skill level or abilities.

It also says, for whatever it's worth: ". . . we are currently ranked as the #1 Sport Karate School in the US by NBL (National Blackbelt League) and the SKIL (Sport Karate International League) Amateur Circuit."

Yes, for whatever that's worth.

As for the latter statement, I can at least say that the school came highly recommended to me by an acquaintance on another forum. That's how I found out about it in the first place.

That's one way to get a recommendation. Of course, since you haven't trained with this person, I presume, it's still not terribly useful in real world terms. You'd be amazed how many martial artists on forums don't train, or stopped training after 3 months but still feel the need to hang out and offer advice.

Indeed. And I should be doing that either this week or next. I intend to sit down and have a long conversation with them and should get some answers on a lot of these concerns.

Best way to do it. Good luck in your search.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

BTW, just another observation:

Turner's school must be affiliated with a group/org that has come up with a standardized curriculum/programs.

Compare:


http://www.dtkarate.com

and

http://www.karatememphis.com

I knew I had seen all that somewhere before.

Yes, that does not surprise me at all. Again, doesn't mean much; I only know that his students that I sparred with could hold their own. I have no idea what other credentials Dan Turner has or how good of a SD or other sort of martial arts instructor he is; I can only comment on what I've seen.

My personal preference is for a traditional Okinawan karate style; but that's just personal preference. Doesn't mean that much.

EDIT: This is *my* dojo where I am a student:

http://hollowaysisshinryu.com/instructors/

My instructors have very real credentials, earned from people who are well-known and respected throughout Isshin-Ryu - that's just one of the reasons why I tend to prefer a traditional Okinawan style; no one can fake their credentials; we're too small and everyone knows who walks the walk and who talks the talk. On the other hand, I could make a website and claim the same things; they'd be lies, but I could claim them. And I might be a halfway decent instructor even if I was lying about my credentials or just flat-out didn't have any; or I might suck as an instructor even with real credentials from a respected lineage. There just isn't any way of telling anything from a website.

But one clue; look at my instructor's bio. It's very specific. Not 'winner of many competitions,' but which ones, when. All verifiable. I get a little hinky when I read "winner of many tournaments." Really? Which ones? When? Where can I find that information? Promoted to X dan by X sensei? Great? When, where? Anyone can claim anything; but people who are specific about it tend to gain my trust a little more easily. None of which translated to teaching or fighting ability, it just goes to initial credibility.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Perhaps one way to look at it is that the term 'Karate' is generic. To specify the type of Karate being taught we have further identifications such as;

Shotokan Karate
Shito Ryu Karate
Uechi Ryu Karate
Goju Ryu Karate
Shuri Te Karate and etc.

Using the identifier of 'American' or 'USA' can simply be looked upon as an identifier of a specific system (outline, goals, philosophy etc). As mentioned in another thread in this section, Okinawan Karate can be broken down into tree distinct branches of lineage (at least). We have Shuri though Itosu Sensei, Uechi through Uechi Sensei and Naha (Goju) through Higashionna Sensei. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanryo_HigashionnaIt seems a natural process for at least some senior students to go on to add, delete or change the art and recognize it under a different label. I would suspect American Karate is no different.

As with anything, the quality is in the instructor and the student(s).