age and the martial arts

Alan0354

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Apr 29, 2021
Messages
895
Reaction score
266
I was taught old school, if I did something wrong, I was whipped with a stick, if the teacher felt like it, he would whip me again. Teachers can not get away with that anymore, todays students do not realize how easy they have it, and that is not helping them to the fullest. When I demonstrate a move on a student, I hit them hard enough to see I made a good contact, but they still complain when I only hit them just hard enough. I tell them, "if you can not handle me hitting you, you have already lost the fight with a real opponent". Many students can not get it trough their head that they need to be able to take a strike as importantly as being able to fight.
You should make it very clear when the new student join your class, make them sign that they understand that you are going to contact reasonably hard. That if they don't want that, don't join your school.

This is to protect you from lawsuit. I don't know where are you, in US, it's so easy to sue a business. You need to protect yourself.

That said, I agree with you. If anyone not willing to be hit, they should not join a MA class. Even with a lot of care, $hit happens. I remember one time when I was sparring, I stepped in to jab, at the same time, the guy stepped in with a front kick. It wasn't even supposed to contact if I did not step in. I took it on my ribs. For the next two weeks, i could not even laugh!!!
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
27,891
Reaction score
9,055
Location
Hendersonville, NC
I was taught old school, if I did something wrong, I was whipped with a stick, if the teacher felt like it, he would whip me again. Teachers can not get away with that anymore, todays students do not realize how easy they have it, and that is not helping them to the fullest. When I demonstrate a move on a student, I hit them hard enough to see I made a good contact, but they still complain when I only hit them just hard enough. I tell them, "if you can not handle me hitting you, you have already lost the fight with a real opponent". Many students can not get it trough their head that they need to be able to take a strike as importantly as being able to fight.
I see little value in constantly making "good contact" when demonstrating techniques, unless you're also allowing them to protect during that demonstration. I've seen this with instructors, and it produced a flinch reflex that interferes with training. Body conditioning (and just getting over getting hit) can be worked in much more productive ways.

To me, this comes across as a power thing - you get to hit students to assert dominance - or an odd view of what "tough" is and how to get it.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
27,891
Reaction score
9,055
Location
Hendersonville, NC
That said, I agree with you. If anyone not willing to be hit, they should not join a MA class. Even with a lot of care, $hit happens. I remember one time when I was sparring, I stepped in to jab, at the same time, the guy stepped in with a front kick. It wasn't even supposed to contact if I did not step in. I took it on my ribs. For the next two weeks, i could not even laugh!!!
That's a very different situation from an instructor making significant contact when demonstrating a technique. Sparring (and specific conditioning exercises) are a better place for getting used to being hit.
 

Yanli

Green Belt
Joined
Apr 27, 2022
Messages
125
Reaction score
20
You should make it very clear when the new student join your class, make them sign that they understand that you are going to contact reasonably hard. That if they don't want that, don't join your school.

This is to protect you from lawsuit. I don't know where are you, in US, it's so easy to sue a business. You need to protect yourself.

That said, I agree with you. If anyone not willing to be hit, they should not join a MA class. Even with a lot of care, $hit happens. I remember one time when I was sparring, I stepped in to jab, at the same time, the guy stepped in with a front kick. It wasn't even supposed to contact if I did not step in. I took it on my ribs. For the next two weeks, i could not even laugh!!!
I do make it very clear, but some still complain, I also make it mandatory that parents stay or join in. I have been hurt a pretty good amount of times, but as the saying goes, its all a part of the job. I tell all students, "you will get hurt, if you don't, your doing something wrong". I know that is not necessarily correct, but it emphasis "you will get hurt". So many students also want to wear all these different padding's, its like they are going to be playing football. I hate when you get a mother that treats their 10 year old like he is 3 and worried about getting hurt.
 

Yanli

Green Belt
Joined
Apr 27, 2022
Messages
125
Reaction score
20
I see little value in constantly making "good contact" when demonstrating techniques, unless you're also allowing them to protect during that demonstration. I've seen this with instructors, and it produced a flinch reflex that interferes with training. Body conditioning (and just getting over getting hit) can be worked in much more productive ways.

To me, this comes across as a power thing - you get to hit students to assert dominance - or an odd view of what "tough" is and how to get it.
That was not the case with my instructor, I thought it was at first, but later I realized he was just teaching that if you want something, then there are things you have to endure. He was a very nice and gentle man, but it was his way of emphasizing, if you want it enough, then have the drive to endure anything. This not only helped through the MA, but it helped with life itself. You brought up a point about flinch reflex, the point was not to flinch, do not let pain distract you from the fight.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
27,891
Reaction score
9,055
Location
Hendersonville, NC
That was not the case with my instructor, I thought it was at first, but later I realized he was just teaching that if you want something, then there are things you have to endure. He was a very nice and gentle man, but it was his way of emphasizing, if you want it enough, then have the drive to endure anything. This not only helped through the MA, but it helped with life itself. You brought up a point about flinch reflex, the point was not to flinch, do not let pain distract you from the fight.
Being a demo partner doesnt mirror fighting.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
9,988
Reaction score
3,944
Location
New York
Well, it is close as you can get. Once you have learned well enough to deal with pain, a real fight is nothing.
There are a lot more things you have to learn to deal with besides pain when it comes to fighting. A demo is one thing, sparring is another, and fighting is yet another.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
21,588
Reaction score
6,403
Well, it is close as you can get. Once you have learned well enough to deal with pain, a real fight is nothing.

But you don't learn to deal with it. In a demo you don't wind up in deep water, dig deep in to your warrior spirit and smack the guy back. You collapse and comply and let the other guy win.
 

Yanli

Green Belt
Joined
Apr 27, 2022
Messages
125
Reaction score
20
There are a lot more things you have to learn to deal with besides pain when it comes to fighting. A demo is one thing, sparring is another, and fighting is yet another.
Yes I know, but the subject was mainly on pain and endurance to pain lol.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
27,891
Reaction score
9,055
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Well, it is close as you can get. Once you have learned well enough to deal with pain, a real fight is nothing.
No. Being a demo partner is pretty far removed from fighting. Light & technical sparring is much closer, and thats still pretty far from how a fight works.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
27,891
Reaction score
9,055
Location
Hendersonville, NC
The method we use for training toughness is called shark tank.

It allows the guy to fight back. But puts them at a disadvantage because he has to constantly compete against fresh guys.

This is the same concept I wanted to use as part of the test at senior student levels. Its a great way to push the limits.
 

isshinryuronin

Master Black Belt
Joined
Feb 28, 2019
Messages
1,217
Reaction score
1,190
Location
Las Vegas
The method we use for training toughness is called shark tank.

It allows the guy to fight back. But puts them at a disadvantage because he has to constantly compete against fresh guys.

We did this at our dojo when I was a student. We called it "circle fighting." I hated it! But when I had my own dojo, I put my own students thru it. It was more than "If I had to do it, so do you." Even though it was my least favorite training activity I recognized the value in it. Aside from the endurance and physical toughness it developed (and learning how to conserve energy), it made us mentally tougher as well.

Fighting when you're physically exhausted, unable to fight on equal terms, and knowing that eventually it's a fight you can't win, but with no choice but to dig deep and continue on to the point of near physical collapse, fostered a mental toughness as well. We were forced to push ourselves beyond our everyday limits (within reason).

Kids and most teens loved this activity (They're not that smart:p). Some adults did too. But even those who did not look forward to it benefited. I realized that, like tough love or distasteful medicine, its benefits were to be seen down the road.
 

Yanli

Green Belt
Joined
Apr 27, 2022
Messages
125
Reaction score
20
No. Being a demo partner is pretty far removed from fighting. Light & technical sparring is much closer, and thats still pretty far from how a fight works.
Well, once again, it is as close as you can get lol.
 

Yanli

Green Belt
Joined
Apr 27, 2022
Messages
125
Reaction score
20
We did this at our dojo when I was a student. We called it "circle fighting." I hated it! But when I had my own dojo, I put my own students thru it. It was more than "If I had to do it, so do you." Even though it was my least favorite training activity I recognized the value in it. Aside from the endurance and physical toughness it developed (and learning how to conserve energy), it made us mentally tougher as well.

Fighting when you're physically exhausted, unable to fight on equal terms, and knowing that eventually it's a fight you can't win, but with no choice but to dig deep and continue on to the point of near physical collapse, fostered a mental toughness as well. We were forced to push ourselves beyond our everyday limits (within reason).

Kids and most teens loved this activity (They're not that smart:p). Some adults did too. But even those who did not look forward to it benefited. I realized that, like tough love or distasteful medicine, its benefits were to be seen down the road.
I was taught, there is no such thing as disadvantage or no chance to win, once you have that thought, you have already lost.
 

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,381
Reaction score
4,691
Location
England
Interesting to note that many who are now old were teenagers when this thread was first posted.
 

Yanli

Green Belt
Joined
Apr 27, 2022
Messages
125
Reaction score
20
Interesting to note that many who are now old were teenagers when this thread was first posted.
When I was a teenager, there was no internet for the public lol.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
27,891
Reaction score
9,055
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Well, once again, it is as close as you can get lol.
I pointed out something that is considerably closer. And harder sparring is even closer. There are lots of things much closer to the reality of a fight than being a demo partner.
 
Top