7 Star Mantis Kung Fu vs. Tae Kwon Do

[white mantis]

What is The best approch for a mantis practiciner when facing someone who knows TKD.

:btg: :jediduel:

 

[WLMantisKid]

It's a case by case thing...

As a general whole, TKD seems to focus on lightning fast kicks, so, I'd say get in close and keep them off balance.

 

[Han-Mi]

It's a case by case thing...

As a general whole, TKD seems to focus on lightning fast kicks, so, I'd say get in close and keep them off balance.

You are correct. If you were to face someone trained in TKD you would want to be inside and keep yourself inside. But, should you come up against a well rounded TKD fighter, as I like to think of myself, then you should fight as you would feel that you are best able to. Oh ya, if your any good on the ground, most TKD guys don't even know how to pass the guard or get out of a simple arm bar.

I'd never assume though.

 

[7starmantis]

As most have said it strongly depends on the fighter and is very much a case by case basis. From a strictly technique standpoint it would be correct to get in close. Yielding will be your friend, as well as sweeps and throws most likely. Use your feel to stay close and connected to try and disable the kicks, use powerful knee or shin kicks combined with heavy use of plucking. I would think one of the most crucial points would be closing the gap, however if your skilled enough a good high kick can sometimes open that door for you as well, you can get in and try to steal their center as quickly as possible.


7sm

 

[7starmantis]

I can tell you this, my sifu said when he was young him and his kung fu brother used to go fight with some tae kwon do guys. He said his sifu would tell them not to and they would go anyways. He said for years they went and got the crap beat out of them. They almost quite kung fu thinking it didn't work. But after several years of kung fu and when they began learning the principles of mantis they would go back and the same guys couldn't touch them. So I guess that’s a good story to say put your time in, and work hard. Kung fu is one of those systems that takes a while to be good at. It’s not good to compare you system with another especially early on.

7sm

 

[Guro Harold]

Adding to 7sm, kung-fu literally means time and energy.

As far as Praying Mantis Kung-fu, some other techniques that have not been mentioned are the 7 Star joint-attacking/locking techniques; Positive and negative Si diu strikes, hooking trapping, and destructions; 7 Star kicks, eye-jabbing and pressure point striking, and monkey footwork, grounding makes the mantis a very formidable style.

So my advice is concentrate on understanding one aspect of Praying Mantis kung-fu when you are sparring to learn.

Best regards,

Palusut

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

As most have said it strongly depends on the fighter and is very much a case by case basis. From a strictly technique standpoint it would be correct to get in close. Yielding will be your friend, as well as sweeps and throws most likely. Use your feel to stay close and connected to try and disable the kicks, use powerful knee or shin kicks combined with heavy use of plucking. I would think one of the most crucial points would be closing the gap, however if your skilled enough a good high kick can sometimes open that door for you as well, you can get in and try to steal their center as quickly as possible.
7sm

Well, I would say for any CMA style not just mantis this is what you want to do against a TKD stylist. I don't agree with tyrying to use high kicks against them ,say what you want ,but not many ppl will out kick a TKD stylist.

For you to try that is for you to fight their fight.

What wins fights is to take a person out of their comfort zone ,which is why you'll see a grappler take a striker down or a southern stylist fight inclose on a northern stylist. The idea is to find their weakness not attack their strengths.

For a mantis stylist i would say get inclose and use your trapping skills TKD does not have many fist techniques ,so your trapping could really confuse them.

jeff

 

[7starmantis]

Actually I wasn't clear enough, I ment one of their high kicks could open the door for you to move in. I didn't mean you try to do a high kick, how would that open the door to move in close?

I agree with everything else you said, but I dont understand why you would say a southern stylist should get in close with a northern stylist? 7* is a northern system and all we do is close fighting. I just dont understand your thinking of why close fighting would close down a northern "stylist".

7sm

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Actually I wasn't clear enough, I ment one of their high kicks could open the door for you to move in. I didn't mean you try to do a high kick, how would that open the door to move in close?

Well, a high kick by you or them can open a way for you to move in closer. Most ppl when attacked with a high kick step into it to cut off the power. You attack the leg at a point that it greatly decreases the power of the kick.

I would hope you understand what i mean ,since you alluded that you've been training a long time in another thread.

I agree with everything else you said, but I dont understand why you would say a southern stylist should get in close with a northern stylist? 7* is a northern system and all we do is close fighting. I just dont understand your thinking of why close fighting would close down a northern "stylist".
7sm

Because most southern styles not all ,but most like Hung Gar,Black Tiger,Southern Praying Mantis etc... must be inside ,they are inclose fighting systems. You don't want to be outside trying to fight a longrange stylist. I never said anything about closing a 7* stylist down either.

I just gave general discriptions.

You would be fighting at their range against their strength ,that's just plain crazy.

This is going to sound like a diss ,but it's not.

I'd fight a Seven Star stylist anyday inclose ,i would never fight them at longrange. The reason being although you guys are an inclose system ,you're not conditioned to take the type of brutal arm attacks that a Hung Gar or Black Tiger stylist would inflict.

If you know anything about Hung Gar or Black Tiger ,then you'll know what i mean. One of the flaws that northern praying mantis has ,is it's lack of arm conditioning. It is something any true southern stylist will tell you ,they would attack.

Every style has their flaws ,that happens to be one of praying mantis's.

jeff

 

[Guro Harold]

Well, a high kick by you or them can open a way for you to move in closer. Most ppl when attacked with a high kick step into it to cut off the power. You attack the leg at a point that it greatly decreases the power of the kick.

I would hope you understand what i mean ,since you alluded that you've been training a long time in another thread.


Because most southern styles not all ,but most like Hung Gar,Black Tiger,Southern Praying Mantis etc... must be inside ,they are inclose fighting systems. You don't want to be outside trying to fight a longrange stylist. I never said anything about closing a 7* stylist down either.

I just gave general discriptions.

You would be fighting at their range against their strength ,that's just plain crazy.

This is going to sound like a diss ,but it's not.

I'd fight a Seven Star stylist anyday inclose ,i would never fight them at longrange. The reason being although you guys are an inclose system ,you're not conditioned to take the type of brutal arm attacks that a Hung Gar or Black Tiger stylist would inflict.

If you know anything about Hung Gar or Black Tiger ,then you'll know what i mean. One of the flaws that northern praying mantis has ,is it's lack of arm conditioning. It is something any true southern stylist will tell you ,they would attack.

Every style has their flaws ,that happens to be one of praying mantis's.

jeff

Actually this could be a nice technical thread within itself to describe northern and southern systems.

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Actually this could be a nice technical thread within itself to describe northern and southern systems.

Let's go ,i'm ready ,what do you want to discuss first?

Since i've done both and even styles that are a mixture of the two.

jeff

 

[RHD]

Actually this could be a nice technical thread within itself to describe northern and southern systems.

I think Jeff has a good point. Northern Mantis styles were to my understanding, designed to defeat other Northern styles such as Lohan or Hsing Yi. True Southern styles on the other hand, were crafted to defeat Northern styles of all types. Granted, there is an individual skill issue here, and a good fighter of any style is a good fighter. However, on the level of tactics and concepts, this is how I understand things to have evolved. Still, I've known some Northern Mantis practitioners with outstanding conditioning. Also, many Northern lineages have run through the South for several generations now, and have probably picked up some things along the way. Few styles experience a geographical shift and remain intact or in thier original configuration. This is of course, not taking into consider various other individual factors.
One thing I can say about Northern Mantis fighters is that they are generally very fast. Speed can copensate for many other things and make them fearsome opponents. Also,the Northern Mantis from what I've experienced, uses a cadence to its movements that can be both disconcerting and deceptive.

Mike

 

[Guro Harold]

I meant that it would be great if we could have a technical thread where the northern and southern styles are defined and described.

Other threads could contrast the styles in a verses if so desired.

These could be a great tool to introduce CMA to visitors of the forum.

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

I meant that it would be great if we could have a technical thread where the northern and southern styles are defined and described.

Other threads could contrast the styles in a verses if so desired.

These could be a great tool to introduce CMA to visitors of the forum.

well, like i said i'm ready. Start the thread and i'll be glad to share as many of my experiences as i can.

jeff

 

[Guro Harold]

well, like i said i'm ready. Start the thread and i'll be glad to share as many of my experiences as i can.

jeff

Jeff,

You are a very knowlegeable member. Why don't you start a thread on your particular style. I am mainly faciliating the idea right now to get the ball rolling. I will hopefully contribute more to the CMA forum but I am mainly focused on the FMA/MA forums currently.

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Jeff,

You are a very knowlegeable member. Why don't you start a thread on your particular style. I am mainly faciliating the idea right now to get the ball rolling. I will hopefully contribute more to the CMA forum but I am mainly focused on the FMA/MA forums currently.

Ok, will do.

Give me a few to get some thoughts together.

jeff

 

[7starmantis]

I'd fight a Seven Star stylist anyday inclose ,i would never fight them at longrange. The reason being although you guys are an inclose system ,you're not conditioned to take the type of brutal arm attacks that a Hung Gar or Black Tiger stylist would inflict.

I think you must be confusing 7* with something else, there are no long range techniques in 7*, I mean literaly none at all. I've never heard anyone say that about arm conditioning since most of the mantis techniques involve using the arm, forearm, elbow, etc. Most breaks are using the forearm or inside of the arm. In fact, we do more iron arm training at my school than most CMA schools I've visited. Grant-it, my sifu's kung fu brother teaches hung gar, so we get a chance to learn a bit from time to time, but I've never heard anyone say that about 7* mantis. Arm conditioning is a major point in mantis kung fu.

What kind of brutal arm attacks are you talking about? Maybe we are mis-understanding each other.

7sm

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

I think you must be confusing 7* with something else, there are no long range techniques in 7*, I mean literaly none at all. I've never heard anyone say that about arm conditioning since most of the mantis techniques involve using the arm, forearm, elbow, etc. Most breaks are using the forearm or inside of the arm. In fact, we do more iron arm training at my school than most CMA schools I've visited. Grant-it, my sifu's kung fu brother teaches hung gar, so we get a chance to learn a bit from time to time, but I've never heard anyone say that about 7* mantis. Arm conditioning is a major point in mantis kung fu.

What kind of brutal arm attacks are you talking about? Maybe we are mis-understanding each other.

7sm

7sm,

Just a question ,how long have you been studying mantis. I know a good amount about 7* mantis. The other mantis styles i really don't know much about. But one thing for sure 7* mantis even contains some Black Tiger forms.

7* mantis is a longfist style and it uses monkey style foot work ,because it doesn't look like the run of the mill longfist doesn't mean it's not longfist.

Does Eagle Claw look like longfist?

jeff

 

[7starmantis]

7sm,

Just a question ,how long have you been studying mantis. I know a good amount about 7* mantis. The other mantis styles i really don't know much about. But one thing for sure 7* mantis even contains some Black Tiger forms.

7* mantis is a longfist style and it uses monkey style foot work ,because it doesn't look like the run of the mill longfist doesn't mean it's not longfist.

Does Eagle Claw look like longfist?

jeff

I've been with my current sifu for a little over 3 years. Its hard to say that 7* contains certain forms because there are different lines of 7* that use different forms. What Black Tiger Forms are you refering to? 7* is not a longfist style like you've said, I dont know who told you that, but they were mistaken. Whether or not it looks like a longfist style is irrelevant, the principles are not longfist. I could see where it may seem that way because some of the techniques from a watching standpoint could resemble longfist. Thats the problem with many of the mantis systems, people watch it and assume they know the application to one said technique and it could be very different. Your correct, 7* uses monkey footwork. Eagle claw does use some longfist principles.

So what type of brutal arm attacks are you refering to?

7sm

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

I've been with my current sifu for a little over 3 years. Its hard to say that 7* contains certain forms because there are different lines of 7* that use different forms. What Black Tiger Forms are you refering to? 7* is not a longfist style like you've said, I dont know who told you that, but they were mistaken. Whether or not it looks like a longfist style is irrelevant, the principles are not longfist. I could see where it may seem that way because some of the techniques from a watching standpoint could resemble longfist. Thats the problem with many of the mantis systems, people watch it and assume they know the application to one said technique and it could be very different. Your correct, 7* uses monkey footwork. Eagle claw does use some longfist principles.

So what type of brutal arm attacks are you refering to?

7sm

True lineage does make a difference ,and i just found out that your lineage is a mixed one ,so never mind. Your lineage is not a traditional Seven Star lineage ,it's a blend of Seven Star,Wah Lum,and Northern.

Raymond Fogg is your sigung correct?

Well, let me refrase that,it's not a longfist style as in meaning of long range fist techniques ,but it is in regards to the leg techniques. Well my experience with mantis is more than just watching so.....

I really can't think of a way to put into words what type of arm attacks i'm talking about ,so you can understand. But you should have an idea since you said someone at your kwoon blends Hung Gar with your training.

What part of Texas is east Texas?

I have a friend in Texas a Hung Gar sifu that i will be visiting sometime soon ,i would like to visit your school or maybe even meet with you while in Texas.

This is not a challange or anything ,i like to meet with martial artist that i've talked to on the internet. I've met quite a few. I work for an airline ,so i'm able to fly for free.

jeff