Zimmerman to face Wrongful Death Civil Trial

[Steve]

The thing is, is that in many cases, it's true! Either parents just toss up their hands because they're at wits end with their wild child or they just don't just a **** what their kid does in the first place. Amazing how you can take a look at a kid acting out, then look at the parent, and know right away, that THAT is why the kid is like they are.

In the good old days, all it took was 'the look' from mom or dad or a whack on the ***, and the bad behavior stopped! Today, well, it's pretty pathetic when the kids call the cops on the parents, or when I take a call from a parent, who states that their 8yo child is misbehaving and wont go to school. So......you call the cops? *shakes my head*

Jesus, guys. Well, let me just confess. According to the prevailing standards of the folks on this forum, I should be dead or in jail and my parents were unfit. That's basically what you guys are saying. My parents, like Trayvon's, were firmly in the middle class. I went to public schools. I got into fights. I "experimented" with weed and was a terrible student, spent my Junior and Senior years at Summer school, night school and "day" school so that I could graduate on time. My GPA was a 1.7 out of high school.

Personally, looking back, I am very much who I am today because of what I went through as a teenager. The gangs, the fights and all of it. All of that has informed my behavior as an adult. I served in the USAF, and ended up graduating from the University of Washington with a 3.96 GPA.

My point isn't to declare that Trayvon Martin was a model human being. My point is that he was clearly a work in progress, as ALL teenagers are. And I just flat out don't believe that you are all as perfect as you are implying.

I believe, frankly, that some of you are just flat out lying or in denial about the quality of your character as teenagers and the general fitness of your parents, and also are in denial about YOUR OWN abilities as parents. Because it's been my experience that the families that appear to the outside to be perfect are often the ones that are rotten underneath.

 

[granfire]

Jesus, guys. Well, let me just confess. According to the prevailing standards of the folks on this forum, I should be dead or in jail and my parents were unfit. That's basically what you guys are saying. My parents, like Trayvon's, were firmly in the middle class. I went to public schools. I got into fights. I "experimented" with weed and was a terrible student, spent my Junior and Senior years at Summer school, night school and "day" school so that I could graduate on time. My GPA was a 1.7 out of high school.

Personally, looking back, I am very much who I am today because of what I went through as a teenager. The gangs, the fights and all of it. All of that has informed my behavior as an adult. I served in the USAF, and ended up graduating from the University of Washington with a 3.96 GPA.

My point isn't to declare that Trayvon Martin was a model human being. My point is that he was clearly a work in progress, as ALL teenagers are. And I just flat out don't believe that you are all as perfect as you are implying.

I believe, frankly, that some of you are just flat out lying or in denial about the quality of your character as teenagers and the general fitness of your parents, and also are in denial about YOUR OWN abilities as parents. Because it's been my experience that the families that appear to the outside to be perfect are often the ones that are rotten underneath.

did you jump people and bash their head into the sidewalk?

Yes, kids/guys will be kids/guys....
But there is that certain element of either denial or idiocy that surfaces when something bad happens and all over sudden the kid is a sweet angel...I suppose the world was out to get him, too...

Did your parents tan your hide when they caught you doing stupid stuff?

 

[MJS]

Jesus, guys. Well, let me just confess. According to the prevailing standards of the folks on this forum, I should be dead or in jail and my parents were unfit. That's basically what you guys are saying. My parents, like Trayvon's, were firmly in the middle class. I went to public schools. I got into fights. I "experimented" with weed and was a terrible student, spent my Junior and Senior years at Summer school, night school and "day" school so that I could graduate on time. My GPA was a 1.7 out of high school.

Personally, looking back, I am very much who I am today because of what I went through as a teenager. The gangs, the fights and all of it. All of that has informed my behavior as an adult. I served in the USAF, and ended up graduating from the University of Washington with a 3.96 GPA.

My point isn't to declare that Trayvon Martin was a model human being. My point is that he was clearly a work in progress, as ALL teenagers are. And I just flat out don't believe that you are all as perfect as you are implying.

I believe, frankly, that some of you are just flat out lying or in denial about the quality of your character as teenagers and the general fitness of your parents, and also are in denial about YOUR OWN abilities as parents. Because it's been my experience that the families that appear to the outside to be perfect are often the ones that are rotten underneath.

Steve,

I can't tell you how to think, so whatever you wish to think of me, is beyond my control. However, compared to the parents of some of the kids that I've gone to school with, I feel mine did a very good job of raising my sister and I. They were always fair, and always listened to both sides, so when I was in trouble, if I was wrongly accused, they stuck up for me. If I was in fact in the wrong, I was punished.

I certainly wasn't the greatest student, but I passed my classes. I have never done any drugs, never smoked, and never drank. I've never been arrested in my life. If all of this makes me a goody-goody or sounds like I'm putting my parents in a class above the rest, then I guess it is what it is.

I'm sorry Steve, but it doesn't take much looking, to see how out of control some of the kids of today are. I mean really, is it necessary to run thru a store, acting like an animal? Of course, we all know that should the little bastard get hurt, somehow it'll be the stores fault, NOT the parents, right? Sorry, clothing racks aren't designed to have people hang from them. It's so nice to be out, see a parent with their child, watch the child ask....no, demand their parent buys them something, the parent says no, and watch the kid haul off and hit their parent and throw a tantrum. Oh yes, last week, I was in the doctors office. It was 5:30pm. A woman came in with 3 kids, 1 of them older than the other 2. For the time she was there, which thankfully wasn't long, 1 kid sat quietly, while the other 2 were bouncing off the walls. Was this necessary, in a doctors office?

I guess because my parents taught me right from wrong, and I never bounced off the friggin walls, that we're the odd ones. LOL!

My wife used to have her cousins over. They'd come with their kids. Now, if they allow their kids to stand on the couch with shoes on in THEIR home, then fine, but when you're in MY home, I don't allow that. If I'm deemed a 'badguy' because I'd wait for them to say something, which would never happen, so then I was forced to say something, then I guess I'll be the odd badguy...lol.

 

[arnisador]

A number of people in this thread seem to be very convinced that not beating children is bad. I think that's quite out-of-touch with modern thinking on the subject.

As to the old days being crime-free, well, of course; that's obvious.

 

[Grenadier]

Steve, there's a difference here, though.

You had the initiative to pick yourself up, and make the best of the situation. That choice had to come from you, and nobody else could have made that decision for you. Furthermore, I'm also pretty sure that you didn't cross that line where you tried to kill someone.

You had the desire to better yourself, and you did.

Trayvon Martin had no such desire, and was only interested in continuing his lifestyle of drug abuse, getting into fights, trying to illegally acquire firearms, etc. The sad thing is, though, that too many people were making excuses for him, and allowed him to believe that he could constantly cross that line with very little, if any, consequence. Nobody held him accountable for his actions.

For that matter, here's an excellent summary on the reality of the situation:

Maybe one day, someone would have scared him straight, but the fact remains, that as long as someone keeps living the bad life, he's making the choice to put his own self at a much higher risk.

In the end, Trayvon Martin is the one who must carry the blame for what happened.

It was he who decided to put himself in this bad situation.

It was Trayvon Martin who ambushed George Zimmerman by sucker punching him and breaking his nose (up until that point, nobody was in any danger doing anything illegal, much less getting killed), and Trayvon Martin who mounted him, rained down multiple blows, and bashing Zimmerman's head against the concrete. He chose to commit attempted murder, and as a result, was killed in a justified self-defense shooting.

Nobody is to blame for his choice to commit attempted murder, except for Trayvon Martin himself.

 

[MJS]

A number of people in this thread seem to be very convinced that not beating children is bad. I think that's quite out-of-touch with modern thinking on the subject.

As to the old days being crime-free, well, of course; that's obvious.

Beating a child....yes, of course that's bad. Smacking them on the *** when they misbehave? Nothing wrong with that. There's a huge difference, and its a damn shame that people can't understand that.

 

[arnisador]

Steve, there's a difference here, though.

You had the initiative to pick yourself up, and make the best of the situation. That choice had to come from you, and nobody else could have made that decision for you.

Wait--are we backing off the parents, then?

 

[MJS]

Steve, there's a difference here, though.

You had the initiative to pick yourself up, and make the best of the situation. That choice had to come from you, and nobody else could have made that decision for you. Furthermore, I'm also pretty sure that you didn't cross that line where you tried to kill someone.

You had the desire to better yourself, and you did.

Trayvon Martin had no such desire, and was only interested in continuing his lifestyle of drug abuse, getting into fights, trying to illegally acquire firearms, etc. The sad thing is, though, that too many people were making excuses for him, and allowed him to believe that he could constantly cross that line with very little, if any, consequence. Nobody held him accountable for his actions.

For that matter, here's an excellent summary on the reality of the situation:

Maybe one day, someone would have scared him straight, but the fact remains, that as long as someone keeps living the bad life, he's making the choice to put his own self at a much higher risk.

In the end, Trayvon Martin is the one who must carry the blame for what happened.

It was he who decided to put himself in this bad situation.

It was Trayvon Martin who ambushed George Zimmerman by sucker punching him and breaking his nose (up until that point, nobody was in any danger doing anything illegal, much less getting killed), and Trayvon Martin who mounted him, rained down multiple blows, and bashing Zimmerman's head against the concrete. He chose to commit attempted murder, and as a result, was killed in a justified self-defense shooting.

Nobody is to blame for his choice to commit attempted murder, except for Trayvon Martin himself.

And this folks, is one of the main differences. Couldn't have said it better! We, as humans, have the ability to lead ourselves down whatever path we choose. I get so tired of hearing about someone that gets arrested, or killed, and the first thing out of their supporters mouth is, "Oh, I can't believe it. He was such a good kid. It's not his fault he robbed the old man as he was getting into his car. I mean afterall, his mom is a druggie and his daddy is in prison."

I call BS on that one! Just because someone grew up with a troubled life, doesn't mean that they're bound for the same life.

 

[Steve]

did you jump people and bash their head into the sidewalk?

You'll have to be more specific. If you're asking whether I might have reacted similarly to Martin under the same circumstances, the answer is maybe. Definite maybe.

Yes, kids/guys will be kids/guys....
But there is that certain element of either denial or idiocy that surfaces when something bad happens and all over sudden the kid is a sweet angel...I suppose the world was out to get him, too...

Have I said he's a sweet angel? No. I would agree that it's ridiculous to believe that of him. Have you suggested he's the devil incarnate? Yeah. You kind of are doing that exactly. But you fail to realize that your extreme position is ALSO ridiculous, for the same reasons.

Did your parents tan your hide when they caught you doing stupid stuff?

Nope. And I don't tan my kids' hides when they do stupid stuff, either. And the truth is, I guarantee you that you aren't the expert on parenting you believe yourself to be. My kids are awesome. They are sweet kids with big hearts. They're doing well in school and they understand and respect authority. Man, how did I manage that without beating my kids with a switch or my belt? If that's the only tool in your parenting toolbox, you are out of your depth.

 

[arnisador]

Beating a child....yes, of course that's bad. Smacking them on the *** when they misbehave? Nothing wrong with that. There's a huge difference, and its a damn shame that people can't understand that.

Research shows that spanking generally has a net negative effect.

 

[Steve]

Steve, there's a difference here, though.

You had the initiative to pick yourself up, and make the best of the situation. That choice had to come from you, and nobody else could have made that decision for you. Furthermore, I'm also pretty sure that you didn't cross that line where you tried to kill someone.

You had the desire to better yourself, and you did.

Trayvon Martin had no such desire, and was only interested in continuing his lifestyle of drug abuse, getting into fights, trying to illegally acquire firearms, etc. The sad thing is, though, that too many people were making excuses for him, and allowed him to believe that he could constantly cross that line with very little, if any, consequence. Nobody held him accountable for his actions.

Grenadier, here's the thing. I did. And my parents were laying the foundation for me so that WHEN I stopped being a child and started to mature those life lessons would take root. The foundation was there. But more importantly, I had the OPPORTUNITY to grow up and make the change. I survived long enough to do those things for myself.

You can't possibly know that Martin was a lost cause. You just don't. The biggest difference between his situation and my own, frankly, is that I wasn't shot by someone. Pretty much. I've seen no evidence that he was an initiated gang member, or that he was addicted to a hardcore drug like heroin or crack. I didn't see any evidence that he was committing violent crimes like B&E or that he was a chronic vandal.

 

[Steve]

Beating a child....yes, of course that's bad. Smacking them on the *** when they misbehave? Nothing wrong with that. There's a huge difference, and its a damn shame that people can't understand that.

MJS, as I said to granfire, if that's A tool in your parenting toolbox, fine. If that's THE tool in your toolbox, you are in over your head. And when people chalk any parenting ills as failing to tan the kid's hide, I'm leaning toward the latter.

 

[Grenadier]

Grenadier, here's the thing. I did. And my parents were laying the foundation for me so that WHEN I stopped being a child and started to mature those life lessons would take root. The foundation was there. But more importantly, I had the OPPORTUNITY to grow up and make the change. I survived long enough to do those things for myself.

Martin was given plenty of opportunities to change, but he didn't. Instead of being thrown in JDC for his theft of jewelry, the stolen jewelry was re-classified as "found property," so that it wouldn't be reported as a crime (Baker Act, IIRC). Instead of being sent to JDC for assaulting the bus driver, he was given a light slap on the wrist.

I've seen no evidence that he was an initiated gang member, or that he was addicted to a hardcore drug like heroin or crack.

The autopsy report showed liver damage that was consistent with what you see when someone abuses dextromethorphan. While it's relatively harmless in the proper doses (a couple tablespoons of cough syrup at the most), it's also well-known that DM acts as a euphoric drug when given in higher doses, and even hallucination / psychosis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_use_of_dextromethorphan

It was also known that Martin was actively seeking to make purple drank, and that he had been a user of the concoction.

http://theconservativetreehouse.com...-drug-use-culminates-in-predictable-violence/

Edit: Sorry about the poor attached image. The link shows the image in its proper size, and easy to read.

 

[arnisador]

Poses "aggressively"?

 

[Steve]

Certainly a lot to be concerned with as a parent. Definitely a kid making bad choices. But I've seen real hard cases, and this isn't that. On that road, maybe.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

 

[ballen0351]

Certainly a lot to be concerned with as a parent. Definitely a kid making bad choices. But I've seen real hard cases, and this isn't that. On that road, maybe.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

I agree i dont think he was a hard core gangster. He was at most a wanna be thug. He obviously had parents that made some effort by moving him away from his problem area. I've seen and delt with way worse. I think he got caught up in his own myth of how much of a bad *** he was and he lost. It happens.

 

[Steve]

I agree i dont think he was a hard core gangster. He was at most a wanna be thug. He obviously had parents that made some effort by moving him away from his problem area. I've seen and delt with way worse. I think he got caught up in his own myth of how much of a bad *** he was and he lost. It happens.

Exactly. Thanks, ballen. I'm not saying he was an angel.

Regarding the myth thing, I think that applies both to Zimmerman and Martin. Both were caught up in some myth and both lost. Martin lost his life literally and Zimmerman lost his life figuratively. Lose/lose situation if I've ever seen one.

 

[MJS]

MJS, as I said to granfire, if that's A tool in your parenting toolbox, fine. If that's THE tool in your toolbox, you are in over your head. And when people chalk any parenting ills as failing to tan the kid's hide, I'm leaning toward the latter.

Nope, it's certainly not "The" tool, but simply one of many. No, I wasn't always smacked on the *** when I was bad. Sometimes all it took was that look that was a silent message that I had better stop. Sometimes I had something taken away from me. Sometimes I was grounded for a week.

IMO, the problem today, is that parents are so limited as to what they can do, out of fear of their own kid. I mean really, its pretty damn sad and pathetic when I take a call from a parent saying their kid is out of control or doesnt want to go to school....and these kids are 8, 9yrs old. God help the parents, and the rest of the public, when they get older. Unless they snap out of that phase, yes, they just might end up like TM.

 

[MJS]

Wait--are we backing off the parents, then?

I wouldn't say so. As I've said, kids learn what they live, but....unless everyone in the kids life is a poor role model, it's very possible that the kid can or will see their actions, and make a change.

 

[MJS]

Research shows that spanking generally has a net negative effect.

Yes of course in todays world, where everyone must be handled like they were made out of glass. When I was growing up, it was unheard of, to call the cops on your parents. Now, people take 'abuse' to the extreme, and now simply smacking the kid on the *** once, is deemed abuse. It isn't.