Your thoughts on these locks?

[Wing Woo Gar]

The thing that always seems to be missing in these endless YouTube examples is footwork in conjunction with structure. I see one or the other or someone alternating between but almost never someone keeping good structure while moving. That’s fine for takedowns and grappling to break someone else’s structure. If you want to strike with any real juice then the posture, angles, structure and footwork to move that structure have to work in conjunction. It’s not surprising when people can’t make something work without moving their feet in coordination. I have said it many times, no foot, no punch. The same applies to a catch, grab, or standing lock. I am constantly reiterating the importance of structure as it relates to telegraphing. Watch yourselves in the mirror, pick up one foot, did your head move? Even a slight motion anywhere other than the leg lifting is a telegraph.

 

[O'Malley]

And i still don't get the energy business. Which seems to be a term for crank the lock.

The energy thing is a mental model. At its most basic, you stretch your fascia and connective tissue, which makes you feel heavier and "bouncier", which is a plus in grappling and striking. You test it by having people push on you. Then when you can do it in movement you can use it to topple people. See from 1:30:

Using it to "crank the lock" means 1) having that kind of body structure which messes up the other guy upon contact and 2) doing the lock along the tangent of a very large circle in order to minimise resistance.

Jesse Enkamp
Jun 25, 2023

I survived Aikido vs Karate training (real sparring) with Leo Tamaki. People say Aikido techniques don't work in MMA or street fight. But this martial arts expert reveals the truth!

I like Leo Tamaki. Interestingly, he doesn't focus on joint locks. I tend to agree as I think that, from a tactical point of view, aikido is more about toppling and throwing people, the application of the classical curriculum would look more like sumo, with more varied strikes. Joint locks are there as a conditioning method for the joints which can also be applied to unbalance the opponent, to gain an advantage in grip fighting, or to break his joints, but it's not the main tactic IMO. I've read somewhere (by a Tomiki guy) that one should try to control the opponent's body, if not the arms, if not the wrists.

Wrist locks generally are about attacking the elbows.

This one is better.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=525209585229687

He attacks the elbow and pins it to their body.

Very cool. I see a similarity with the way I've been taught. There are differences in the positioning (and we can discuss how likely it is that one can set it up) but in the following video you can see that Saito admonishes against staying in front of the opponent and twisting the wrist. Saito sets up the technique by first pivoting in the opposite direction, then pivots towards the outside but once he's in position, instead of twisting he aims behind the opponent and puts weight on the elbow (2:30 onwards):

If he had committed to those attacks. He would have just bashed the guy.

They were not sparring, though. He was just showing some moves. And Tamaki is also a kyokushin karate instructor, so it's safe to assume he can bang.

If you attempt to catch punches or paw at people's wrists you will encounter two major problems.

One.
You will get punched in the face, a lot.

You are dropping your hand inside of their range. You can't see their punches from there and you are not punching them back.

Two.
You will wind up reaching for their hand. So if you do grab the thing you have no mechanical advantage to do anything with it.

Now none of this is rocket surgery. Is is simple to test. But because of the boat load of misinformation it gets lost in the confusion.

I would tend to agree and if you look, you'll see that neither Bookman, nor Tamaki go for the wrist. They try to enter past the attack and control the opponent's body, in a way quite similar to what's done in the Gracie self-defense method.

 

[drop bear]

Well ... you are back to the clinch, which JowGaWolf said is a wrestling engine rather than aikido. I agree with you that there may be better alternatives from the clinch than trying to use aikido techniques.

In the "Aikido's Six Most Effective Fighting Techniques" video I posted, Aikido techniques are performed without entering the clinch. They're similar in control and timing to what Bookman is doing. At :38, one example is Gedan-ate:

https://imgur.com/5DE9tjo

Not a wrist lock though.

 

[marvin8]

Well ... you are back to the clinch, which JowGaWolf said is a wrestling engine rather than aikido. I agree with you that there may be better alternatives from the clinch than trying to use aikido techniques.

In the "Aikido's Six Most Effective Fighting Techniques" video I posted, Aikido techniques are performed without entering the clinch. They're similar in control and timing to what Bookman is doing. At :38, one example is Gedan-ate:

https://imgur.com/5DE9tjo

Not a wrist lock though.

However, Bookman does a wrist lock while using similar control and timing.

 

[drop bear]

However, Bookman does a wrist lock while using similar control and timing.

Fine we will add that position. Which isn't technically a clinch.

And I have hit that sweep. But of those options. That is still the hardest to time and hit.

 

[dunc]

Very cool. I see a similarity with the way I've been taught. There are differences in the positioning (and we can discuss how likely it is that one can set it up) but in the following video you can see that Saito admonishes against staying in front of the opponent and twisting the wrist. Saito sets up the technique by first pivoting in the opposite direction, then pivots towards the outside but once he's in position, instead of twisting he aims behind the opponent and puts weight on the elbow (2:30 onwards):

This is a good example of the problem I have with how wrist locks are set up in Aikido (3.00)
You can see that Saito sensei relies on his uke not stepping with his right foot in order to apply the lock. However, Saito sensei performs two footwork movements and during the time it takes him to do this his uke doesn't step at all. There is no consideration about how to prevent uke from stepping
In practice this won't work: a resisting opponent will simply step to face you and continue to attack

Also people don't allow their spines to arch like that without a certain amount of physical encouragement...

 

[O'Malley]

This is a good example of the problem I have with how wrist locks are set up in Aikido (3.00)
You can see that Saito sensei relies on his uke not stepping with his right foot in order to apply the lock. However, Saito sensei performs two footwork movements and during the time it takes him to do this his uke doesn't step at all. There is no consideration about how to prevent uke from stepping
In practice this won't work: a resisting opponent will simply step to face you and continue to attack

Are you talking about stepping back with his right foot or stepping forward with his left foot? (I guess uke's goal is to track tori by facing him with his hips). In theory,

1) Uke's structure and balance should already be affected during the first step;

2) The atemi (in this case a punch to the face with Saito's right hand) should create space between uke's hand and his head, disturb his structure and hide tori's movement.

In practice, I don't know.

Also people don't allow their spines to arch like that without a certain amount of physical encouragement...

Again I'd need to try it live to answer.

 

[dunc]

Hiya
A few thoughts below and again I am a fan of wrist locks, they are a part of my "game" in resistive sparring, but generally speaking I think they require quite specific set ups (usually involving strikes) to work in standing situations

Are you talking about stepping back with his right foot or stepping forward with his left foot? (I guess uke's goal is to track tori by facing him with his hips). In theory,

Stepping back with his right foot
Stepping forward with the left can work in that it allows your left hand to engage and stop tori from twisting the wrist by grabbing, but in this situation the more obvious response would be for uke to simply step to face tori instead of allowing their spine to twist

1) Uke's structure and balance should already be affected during the first step;

Firstly this is hard to do without strikes or structural redirections, unless uke is an idiot and allows their shoulders to overreach their foot
Timing / aiki will have an impact, but not much
And people recover their balance quickly, certainly faster than it takes tori to make a step, all they have to do is align their spine which is faster than uke performing a 90 degree rotation &/or taking a fairly big step

2) The atemi (in this case a punch to the face with Saito's right hand) should create space between uke's hand and his head, disturb his structure and hide tori's movement.

The strike with the right hand isn't set up at all, there is no structure to it
At best it's a feint to get a reaction, but actually uke did the obvious thing and simply covered with his left hand
The other problem with the strike is that the particular strike used encourages uke to move in the direction of the obvious counter to the lock. When you're setting up things like wrist locks with strikes you need to study how the strike compliments the lock, it's not enough for a strike to be simply a disruptive event

In practice, I don't know.

Again I'd need to try it live to answer.

Worth reiterating that, in my experience, kote gaeshi works well in high level resistive grappling sparring, but not done this way
Best

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Perhaps because this discussion was fresh in my mind, I caught one of my students (purple belt and former collegiate wrestler) with a wrist lock in sparring last night. It was a variation of the one called nikyo in Aikido or hon gyaku in Bujinkan Taijutsu, but I applied it from the bottom of half guard while my partner was hand fighting to prevent me from trying to get an entry into deep half guard.

He was kind of shocked, but I explained that I only got him because he was unaware of the existence of that particular lock and so didn't realize that he was vulnerable. After class I showed him how the technique works and how to prevent it. I was actually able to show him how to do the "energy based" defense that the instructor in the original video above demos. (Although obviously the better defense is to not get to such a potentially compromised position in the first place.)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Worth reiterating that, in my experience, kote gaeshi works well in high level resistive grappling sparring, but not done this way

I'd love to see how you set that up in sparring. I think I've been caught by it once in all my years of sparring and I've maybe pulled it off 2 or 3 times, mostly against much less experienced sparring partners. I do sometimes find it useful to threaten the lock just to force a reaction that will open up other options.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Perhaps because this discussion was fresh in my mind, I caught one of my students (purple belt and former collegiate wrestler) with a wrist lock in sparring last night. It was a variation of the one called nikyo in Aikido or hon gyaku in Bujinkan Taijutsu, but I applied it from the bottom of half guard while my partner was hand fighting to prevent me from trying to get an entry into deep half guard.

He was kind of shocked, but I explained that I only got him because he was unaware of the existence of that particular lock and so didn't realize that he was vulnerable. After class I showed him how the technique works and how to prevent it. I was actually able to show him how to do the "energy based" defense that the instructor in the original video above demos. (Although obviously the better defense is to not get to such a potentially compromised position in the first place.)

There is a neat little segment on wrist-locks that is definitely worth reading at the following link:

Understanding context

Discussions on martial arts forums frequently turn into arguments about the nature of “real fights” or “real violence”, as if that nature could be summed up in a sound bite …

bjjcontemplations.com

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There is a neat little segment on wrist-locks that is definitely worth reading at the following link:

Understanding context

Discussions on martial arts forums frequently turn into arguments about the nature of “real fights” or “real violence”, as if that nature could be summed up in a sound bite …

bjjcontemplations.com

I really need to get back to updating that blog.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

There is a neat little segment on wrist-locks that is definitely worth reading at the following link:

Understanding context

Discussions on martial arts forums frequently turn into arguments about the nature of “real fights” or “real violence”, as if that nature could be summed up in a sound bite …

bjjcontemplations.com

Funny because Tony wrote that.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I really need to get back to updating that blog.

How often do people quote you to you?

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Funny because Tony wrote that.

Yes, that is correct

I clicked his link and came across the blog-post. Decided this was the right context so posted the link.

Here is the relevant section for your perusal:

For an example of understanding context, let’s look at a particular class of technique – standing wristlocks. Wristlocks are common in jujutsu, aikido, hapkido, chin na, and a variety of other arts. In recent years, there has been some criticism of their validity as a realistic tactic, because we have never seen them used successfully in MMA. In decades of competition with thousands of fights between skilled martial artists no one has ever pulled one off. If you try the experiment of applying any standing wristlock in a hard-contact sparring session, you will find it exceedingly difficult.

Yet on the other hand, I’ve heard testimony from police officers, bouncers, and correctional officers that they have successfully used wristlocks in real-life confrontations. What’s going on? The standard response from the anti-MMA crowd – that MMA is just a “sport” with rules – doesn’t seem relevant. Wristlocks have always been perfectly legal in MMA.

The answer comes when you realize that standing wristlocks are a grappling equivalent of a sucker punch – something that you hit the other guy with before he realizes the fight has started. Many fights are preceded by a period of trash-talking, posturing, and shoving while the participants build up a full head of steam. A skilled practitioner can use that opportunity to slip on a wristlock and gain control of a subject before the punches start flying. On the other hand, if you try to apply a standing wristlock to a competent fighter who has already begun fighting your odds are not good. That is not the context these techniques were developed for.

If you understand the context that your art was developed for and you understand the rules that apply to different forms of violence, then you have a good chance of knowing how and when to use your training appropriately. I strongly recommend that any serious martial artist go beyond the practice of physical techniques to study this in depth.

 

[dunc]

I'd love to see how you set that up in sparring. I think I've been caught by it once in all my years of sparring and I've maybe pulled it off 2 or 3 times, mostly against much less experienced sparring partners. I do sometimes find it useful to threaten the lock just to force a reaction that will open up other options.

Mostly I do kote gaeshi (or omote gyaku) in no gi off a collar tie - standing or kneeling - I'll try and remember to video it next week if you like
I also pull it off opportunistically as a guard pass or way to make them lean to one side (typically giving an under hook on the other side) if I see the back of their hand facing me (gi or no gi)
I find that it works best when people either have relaxed wrists (easy to feel when you grip) and/or if they're somewhat compromised when you have the grip
And yes I find attacking it during the grip fighting phase works wonders to put them onto the defensive &/or force predictable reactions

As an aside I feel that wrist locking is an underdeveloped skill in BJJ as most people come at it from an Aikido background which in my view has some limitations technically (as per the above)
But reiterating for them to be more useful (ie a more important part of the arsenal) they do really need to involve striking

 

[drop bear]

I'd love to see how you set that up in sparring. I think I've been caught by it once in all my years of sparring and I've maybe pulled it off 2 or 3 times, mostly against much less experienced sparring partners. I do sometimes find it useful to threaten the lock just to force a reaction that will open up other options.

Off a failed drop seonagi.

 

[drop bear]

Mostly I do kote gaeshi (or omote gyaku) in no gi off a collar tie - standing or kneeling - I'll try and remember to video it next week if you like
I also pull it off opportunistically as a guard pass or way to make them lean to one side (typically giving an under hook on the other side) if I see the back of their hand facing me (gi or no gi)
I find that it works best when people either have relaxed wrists (easy to feel when you grip) and/or if they're somewhat compromised when you have the grip
And yes I find attacking it during the grip fighting phase works wonders to put them onto the defensive &/or force predictable reactions

As an aside I feel that wrist locking is an underdeveloped skill in BJJ as most people come at it from an Aikido background which in my view has some limitations technically (as per the above)
But reiterating for them to be more useful (ie a more important part of the arsenal) they do really need to involve striking

One of the biggest issues with wrist locks is the traditional lock schools seem to think cranking them is ok. (Looking at you Paul Cale. )

And so doing them live turns your roll in to a prison fight.

If people just calmed the hell down. Then it would be more popular.

 

[dunc]

One of the biggest issues with wrist locks is the traditional lock schools seem to think cranking them is ok. (Looking at you Paul Cale. )

And so doing them live turns your roll in to a prison fight.

If people just calmed the hell down. Then it would be more popular.

Yeah there’s a kinda unwritten rule in our academy that they are for blue belts and above for that reason

 

[JowGaWolf]

What can be a technique that you don't trust?

The one without reason.

What can be a technique that you don't trust?

For me if I know without doubt that a technique doesn't work for escaping, grappling, striking, or defending, within my ablility then I won't trust the technique for use in fighting.