Your martial objective?

[K-man]

So I guess you could say that my 'martial objectives' are a moving set of goals. Some I will reach; and then hopefully set the bar higher and keep striving. Some are objectives I will never reach, but it won't stop me trying.

Mostly, my martial goal is to keep moving on the path. The path never ends.

Great response Bill.

Like you I started on my martial journey later in life and I hope to continue for many years to come.
Like you, my goals have changed over time. When I started out, training with my son, we had set our eyes on a Black Belt but it was more something that we could do together. Twenty five years later the belt is no longer the goal and unfortunately my son no longer trains.
We are fortunate to live in a safe country so it is extremely unlikely that I would ever need to use my expertise to its obvious limits. The knowledge that I can defend myself and my family is comforting, but, the journey is far more complex than that. At present my passion is unlocking the secrets of the kata and passing on the knowledge I have gleaned. From what I have seen, I know that this is a life journey on its own. I have no idea where I will be on the path in 5 years time but, like you Bill, I hope to continue for many years to come. :asian:

 

[Cirdan]

Same questions as with Ken.

If possible could you also expound on your statement of Extinguish life?

You are redefining your question by adding "for whatever reason".

Used, the purpose of the art is to inflict damage to keep you alive which at the highest level applied means extinguishing life.

Now, defeating the enemy without figthing, "taking whole" etc are always better but you specified martial skill, and highest level objective if used.

 

[Chris Parker]

I heared this saying a while back from my Sensei (who got it off the forums i think) which pretty much sums it up for me.

"where ever I go, everyone is safer for me being there"

Actually, I got it from Robert L. Humphries and Jack Hoban (who got it from Robert).

In terms of the question itself:

What is the highest level objective with-in the framework of your martial skill if it were that it had to be utilized?

The way that reads to me is that you are asking if we had to use our particular art, what would be the ultimate goal in that usage.... is that it? If so, then the answers that Ken and Cirdan gave is completely accurate. In a Kenjutsu system I study, there is the concept that every action is only there to cut an opponent down. If you're not doing that, you're wasting time.

On the other hand, another system that I teach has the lesson "Destroy the enemies power, but not his life", as well as "Always a 9, never a 10". So in that regard, killing is not the ideal, unless it is to save or preserve a greater life or lives. Then again I teach a system that bases it's ideals on avoiding conflict, so the ideal there is to not fight someone...

To that end, a story I once heard about an Aikido instructor is interesting. He was on a train, and saw at one end of his carriage a guy, rather dishevelled, moving up the carriage and approaching every person as he went, asking for change, and basically annoying them. The Aikido instructor started thinking about the things he might do, what techniques he might use if the guy tried something, what locks and holds would work on a train... and the guy was getting closer.

Just before the dishevelled individual got to him, the passenger before him got up and approached the disturbing person. He stopped the man, and started talking to him, asking if he was okay, what was wrong, can I help, getting the guy talking. The passenger got the guy sitting down, calm, and talking about his life. The Aikido instructor just watched this, thinking that that was not what he would have done... he was thinking about techniques! But this passenger had shown him what he called a truly Aikido answer, and one that he would never have thought of himself!

With us, in some ways, the highest level objective would be to be invisible. By that, I don't mean hiding in the shadows, lurking behind walls, scaling trees and so on, I refer to being a non-target, being someone that an attacker wouldn't see as a potential threat or victim. But that's Ninjutsu, I suppose.

 

[ap Oweyn]

Meh. I believe wholeheartedly in the idea of application. Not so much because I anticipate ever being in a violent situation in which my martial arts will make the difference. (I'm not going to be high blocking a driveby shooting, which is about as likely as me being in a punch up.) I support the idea of application because I believe that martial arts are a form of self-exploration. And you can't start that process with an act of self-deception. I want to know that what I learn does, essentially, what it claims to do. I can't possibly account for every real-life variable in my training. But I can sort through my training and make judgments about what seems plausible, realistic, and useful.

All of which is to explain that "extinguishing life" is NOT my ultimate objective. Simply because I just don't see that unlikely possibility as much of a legitimation for decades of work. I could get attacked. But I probably won't. I might be better prepared for an attack, given my training. But I might not. I think that's insufficient to warrant it all.

My objective is to answer questions about myself, I suppose (though I hate the philosophical vagary that implies). Would I buckle under certain sorts of pressure? Can I rise to a certain sort of challenge? Etc.

Life hands us lots of opportunities to answer those questions in certain contexts. Being a father addresses some contexts. Being an employee addresses others. But there are lots of corners of human experience that don't come up in those contexts. And that, to me, is the actual application of martial arts training. The application you use day in and day out. Answering those questions about your nature that revolve around how you handle those forms of conflict and stress.

There's also a lot of stuff in there about interest in other cultures, etc. But I'm sticking to why martial arts in particular. If I just wanted to learn about Filipino culture, there are lots of less impact-based routes I could go. I go this one because I want to know what I can handle.


Stuart

 

[Danny T]

You are redefining your question by adding "for whatever reason".

Used, the purpose of the art is to inflict damage to keep you alive which at the highest level applied means extinguishing life.

Now, defeating the enemy without figthing, "taking whole" etc are always better but you specified martial skill, and highest level objective if used.

My question was: "What is the highest level objective with-in the framework of your martial skill if it were that it had to be utilized?"

The question is such it encompasses any and all possible situations. For me killing maybe a result of the objective but is not the objective.

 

[Langenschwert]

I don't think anyone it going to challenge me to a duel with longswords any time soon, so that's a moot point.

My goal is simply to be the finest practicioner of classical martial arts (both European and Japanese) that I can be.

That means with regards to Historical European Martial Arts, to continally refine my interpretations of the source material and share my findings with the community. To accept all reasonable challenges that may arise from doing so. To teach them to others to the best of my ability.

With regards to JSA, my goal is simple. To help preserve the ryu and perform the waza to the best of ability and to continually refine my skill.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Cirdan]

My question was: "What is the highest level objective with-in the framework of your martial skill if it were that it had to be utilized?"

The question is such it encompasses any and all possible situations. For me killing maybe a result of the objective but is not the objective.

Seems you already got the correct awnser too eh?

 

[Danny T]

Seems you already got the correct awnser too eh?

Not certain there is any particular correct answer. The question was to provoke thought and discussion. I think there are many possible correct answers based upon where individuals are in training, in abilities to function in a martial combat situation, (that may be a self-defense action or may be a sport competition action or a situation where someone is simply being a foolish jerk or whatever). From my perspective there are numerous ways to attain what I view to be my highest level objective but the manner I attain it is not the objective. For me killing would be the very last action I would want to do to attain my highest level objective. Would I kill if need be? Yes. (have done so while in Southeast Asia many years ago) Was that my objective when I was there? NO! Killing was not my objective non the less it was something that had to be done. Unfortunately the objective was never attained but that is for another discussion therefore I digress to this discussion.

I am not advocating any one answer just attempting to provoke thought as to what are individual's highest level objective within the framework of their martial skill if it to have to be utilized.

 

[Cirdan]

Not certain there is any particular correct answer. The question was to provoke thought and discussion. I think there are many possible correct answers based upon where individuals are in training, in abilities to function in a martial combat situation, (that may be a self-defense action or may be a sport competition action or a situation where someone is simply being a foolish jerk or whatever). From my perspective there are numerous ways to attain what I view to be my highest level objective but the manner I attain it is not the objective. For me killing would be the very last action I would want to do to attain my highest level objective. Would I kill if need be? Yes. (have done so while in Southeast Asia many years ago) Was that my objective when I was there? NO! Killing was not my objective non the less it was something that had to be done. Unfortunately the objective was never attained but that is for another discussion therefore I digress to this discussion.

I am not advocating any one answer just attempting to provoke thought as to what are individual's highest level objective within the framework of their martial skill if it to have to be utilized.

Sounds like the word "objective" means a lot to you. Anything else you would like to share?

 

[clfsean]

Eh... to go home. Safely. In one piece.

To level of skill needed... what it takes.

 

[ETinCYQX]

To hurt the other guy. Badly.

Of course I avoid conflict whenever possible, but I think I speak for all of us when I say that when faced with an unavoidable threat we'll fight, and win in a fashion that leaves said threat as incapacitated as possible. I have no qualms about tearing joints apart, breaking bones, causing concussions if I think it's the only way to defend myself.

 

[Danny T]

Because it is such a simply goal for any martial combat, my highest level objective is:

Effortless instantaneous victory with minimal damage.


Now this is the objective and that does not mean I have obtained it by any means. However, when applied in any situation of martial combat this encompasses all scenarios.

Despite how lofty or unreachable it may seem, I have been unable to and doubt will find a way to advocate that martial art techniques should take a long time to perform and take a lot of work when applying them to an opponent. The longer one is in combat the more likely one will be hurt. This does not mean one’s training is to be effortless or that there is a complete lack of expending energy but a lack of conflict of strength. Otherwise a smaller weaker person could never defeat a larger stronger opponent.

We can debate the merits of particular techniques one may use to obtain the objective but greater consideration should be toward the objective itself. Instantaneous victory – it seems to me we must prefer faster victory to slower victory and therefore prefer instant victory to all else. I am not satisfied with techniques or movements that contribute to victory (although they are important). When seeking instantaneous victory then any technique that cannot deliver victory only interferes with the objective. What I do I mean; lets look at blocking. Blocking itself while defending an attack, seldom ends the fight and while a block ultimately can contribute to victory blocking itself is contrary to the goal of instantaneous victory. While blocking serves much better that being hit the block only takes up an opportunity to execute a technique that would fulfill the objective. Therefore any movement or technique not forwarding the ultimate goal is interfering with it.

As to Effortless, as movement/techniques become anatomically sound and proficiency with the techniques grows, the body requires less physical tension to express them. The movements become more natural and ingrained in our neuromuscualar system and requires less mental and physical effort to perform. Strength and effort cannot be relied upon as technique because sooner or later there will be a situation where there will be a larger and stronger opponent.

Lastly, proficiency in martial training must contend with serious consideration of morality. Since I seek masterful expertise I must include the option to not to harm if possible and still obtain the objective. The practitioner who must harm, maim, or kill to win verses the one who may or may not the latter is superior if only for he/she has more options therefore more freedom and ability to act and thus more empowered.

True master must include the option of compassion yet still allows for effortless instantaneous victory with minimal damage.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Effortless instantaneous victory with minimal damage.

In relation to the JSA, you don’t train to incapacitate, you don’t train to wound, you train to hit the target with enough force and skill to severally limit your opponent’s capacity to attack you, including their death. The JSA (and western sword arts for that matter), are not about self defence, anything to the contrary is a fallacy, there are many kata where you are the aggressor, and you simply assassinate targets.

If you’re talking about how the MA make you a better person or some other “what if” scenario, then obviously I’ll provide a different answer.

In the “modern, real” world, the odds of me using my sword to defend myself are quite remote. I have not been in any confrontations since grade school, I avoid areas I know to be trouble, I avoid people I know to be trouble, I have no interest in proving myself physically against anyone, I’ve completed courses on various forms of negotiations, wrestled for five years, I participate in body building so I have some width to me, the JSA have provided me with a very good understanding of timing and distancing. I’m under no illusion of being able to defend myself successfully against someone who regularly trains in MMA or the like, but they’ll know they were in a fight.

 

[Josh Oakley]

To hurt the other guy. Badly.

Of course I avoid conflict whenever possible, but I think I speak for all of us when I say that when faced with an unavoidable threat we'll fight, and win in a fashion that leaves said threat as incapacitated as possible. I have no qualms about tearing joints apart, breaking bones, causing concussions if I think it's the only way to defend myself.

While I have no qualms about any of those things either, if necessary, I would suggest "neutralized" instead of "incapacitated". The neutralization of a threat does not necessarily require incapacitation.

In the last fight I ever had to participate in, all I did was block. Eventually, the guy got tired and walked off. Threat neutralized. This is, of course, not the only response to an attack I ever have employed in the past, nor is it the only one I would. But the guy ended up becoming a friend of mine. Maybe that wouldn't have happened if I had left him a mangled pile of broken bones?

Just some food for thought.

 

[matt rafferty]

I do not train so that I may avoid conflict. I train to end conflicts. I train so that I may completely overwhelm my opponent. I am 6'6" and 250 lbs. People who chose conflict with me have generally been rather large of stature themselves. (or Napoleanic, and that is a psychological discussion). Case in point: In my twenties I worked as a crab fisherman along the west coast. One season I worked the deck with a 6'4" 365lb ex Fresno State mid-linebacker whose neck was bigger around than my quads. After a particularly long stretch, maybe 70 hours of picking pots, no exaggeration, I began to physically waiver. He looked at me and said, "If you don't pick it up I'm gonna beat your ***." I believed him. I train to fight men like him. I train to never suffer the fear I felt that sleep depped day. And had I been trained in MA then I would not have kept my head down and mouth shut to avoid the conflict like I did.

 

[Josh Oakley]

I do not train so that I may avoid conflict. I train to end conflicts. I train so that I may completely overwhelm my opponent. I am 6'6" and 250 lbs. People who chose conflict with me have generally been rather large of stature themselves. (or Napoleanic, and that is a psychological discussion). Case in point: In my twenties I worked as a crab fisherman along the west coast. One season I worked the deck with a 6'4" 365lb ex Fresno State mid-linebacker whose neck was bigger around than my quads. After a particularly long stretch, maybe 70 hours of picking pots, no exaggeration, I began to physically waiver. He looked at me and said, "If you don't pick it up I'm gonna beat your ***." I believed him. I train to fight men like him. I train to never suffer the fear I felt that sleep depped day. And had I been trained in MA then I would not have kept my head down and mouth shut to avoid the conflict like I did.

Sorry to hear you went through that.

 

[Cirdan]

True master must include the option of compassion yet still allows for effortless instantaneous victory with minimal damage.

And what would the true master`s conditions for victory be?

 

[Mark Jordan]

To continue training/learning and be the best I can be & impart my knowledge/skills to help others achieve the same.

 

[ap Oweyn]

True master must include the option of compassion yet still allows for effortless instantaneous victory with minimal damage.

How do you achieve an instant victory without doing harm then? You said a block doesn't contribute to instant victory. Presumably the same is true of evasion, restraints, and the like. So, in concrete terms, what would instantaneous victory without harm look like?

 

[Supra Vijai]

Eh... to go home. Safely. In one piece.

To level of skill needed... what it takes.

+1 to this.

When I have had to defend myself in the past, my primary reaction has been something to stun the aggressor, which in turn lets me get distance and move away. This was some time ago and I have learnt a lot more in training since but I'd dare say my response would still be the same.