Young blackbelts!

[Ceicei]

Sorry CeiCei,
I'm either not making myself clear or you're not reading the posts carefully.
What I mean is "no" to an instructor under 18-25, and that some instructors over that age range are also a "no". In other words, 18-25 is the absolute youngest age group that I've found competent instructors in. Older is almost always better unless they don't know what they're doing.
Mike

I guess it was your choice of using the word "any" in your previous post. Absolutes are usually risky terms to use as there are always an exception.

But I have no argument with your point that an instructor may not necessarily know how to teach others to fight in an actual no-holds-barred situation.

- Ceicei

 

[WLMantisKid]

I personally wouldn't mind how old my instructor was - as long as the instructor knew what they were doing. I'm not too entirely sure but my sifu is ~ mid 20's and displays a very deep understanding of the wah lum system. He was a direct student under Chan Pui, but hey, who's counting? The trick is to look more at the persons level of knowledge more than their age level.

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

I don't think its ever a good idea to learn self defense from a kid.
I don't think its ever a good idea to learn fighting skill from a kid.
Mike

I would concurr on this. :asian:

I wouldn't want to learn MA techniques from someone who has little years and experience in what he's teaching under their belt. If a person hasn't actually had to apply the techniques that they're trying to teach, how do I know that they work? :idunno:

It's like a first dan Black Belt opening up, running and being the top instructor at their own dojang. What does a first dan truly know about teaching the MAs? He/she is really just a beginner...

 

[elcajon555]

There is a lot a first dan can teach in martial arts, particulary to the beginners. I wouldn;t suggest that a first dan would run a school, but they do have enough knowledge to be able to teach beginners.

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

There is a lot a first dan can teach in martial arts, particulary to the beginners. I wouldn;t suggest that a first dan would run a school, but they do have enough knowledge to be able to teach beginners.

Oh sure, I'm simply just a first dan. I've trained and learned just a bit enough to share with MA beginners. However, there is still so, so much that I need to learn myself in terms of being a martial artist that I'm still just scraching the surface... :asian:

 

[Danny]

Teens can't teach serious life and death self defense courses, true. However you're not going to teach that kind of stuff until Black Belt anyway. Up until then you're just teaching people how to use their bodies, how to move, attacking tools, vital spots, basic predefined moves, etc. It's not until Black Belt that you have the ability to but it all together. Up until then I can think of a dozen Jr. Black Belts that have been taught only by myself and my peers that could teach such things. (We are 18 yrs. 2nd Dan now, they are 13-16 1st Dan.) I've never had a problem with kids teaching adults. Make sure your young assistants know what they're doing and no one cares.

 

[RHD]

Teens can't teach serious life and death self defense courses, true. However you're not going to teach that kind of stuff until Black Belt anyway.

You're kidding right? Are you telling us that your school doesn't teach self defense until black belt level? If that's true, I feel sorry for all of the students there. :shrug:
Mike

 

[Danny]

You're kidding right? Are you telling us that your school doesn't teach self defense until black belt level? If that's true, I feel sorry for all of the students there. :shrug:
Mike

No, I'm saying that you cannot teach self defence beyond basic predefined movements until Black Belt. Until you learn the basics how can I teach you how to defend yourself when attacked in a random, none standard method? If you've every taught white belts you know most people can't performe a simple three punch combination when they walk in off the street. Never mind a complicated take down.

 

[Black Bear]

I've taught, and I know perfectly well that I can teach raw beginners to train alive. Don't project your failure on the rest of us.

The way that combat is taught in most martial arts is horribly, horribly inefficient.

 

[MJS]

Ok, now when we're talking about teens, are we talking about 13,14,15, or maybe 18 or 19? IMO, I dont see a problem with a teen doing something like the warmups, providing they know what they're doing, and are not having a problem leading the class. The head Inst. should be out there supervising. I also believe that whoever is teaching, regardless of age, should have a very good knowledge of what is being taught. People ask questions, and I dont know about anyone else, but if I had a question about something, I would hope that the person instructing would be able to provide be with an answer.

Regardless of how good someones forms look, the fact remains that they need to be able to explain what they are doing, have an understanding of what they're doing, and be able to relay that info. to a student in a way that the student can understand.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Teens can't teach serious life and death self defense courses, true.

Well, I wouldnt expect to see a teen teaching a SD course anyway.

However you're not going to teach that kind of stuff until Black Belt anyway. Up until then you're just teaching people how to use their bodies, how to move, attacking tools, vital spots, basic predefined moves, etc. It's not until Black Belt that you have the ability to but it all together.

WHAT??????????????? Dude, I seriously hope that you are kidding with this statement. Why in the hell would ANYONE want to waste their time attending a MA class if they are going to have to wait until BB to actually be able to use it??? I've seen many under black belts with alot of skill. The beginner should be taught the basic moves and they should be drilled over and over. The intermediate student should have a better understanding of the basics, and start to be creative. What I mean is, they should not have to rely on the preset SD techs. Rather they should be using the basics, putting them together to defend themselves. The advanced student should have a very good understanding of all of the basics. They should be more fluid in their movements, being able to flow from one move to the next without having to think about what they are doing.

Up until then I can think of a dozen Jr. Black Belts that have been taught only by myself and my peers that could teach such things. (We are 18 yrs. 2nd Dan now, they are 13-16 1st Dan.) I've never had a problem with kids teaching adults. Make sure your young assistants know what they're doing and no one cares.

So, let me get this straight now. You're saying that your 13-16 y/o students have this ability to teach, but nobody elses do?? Is there some secret thing you"re doing? How can you expect a 13 yo to teach a 40 yo adult about SD? And a 13 yo is going to be able to, as you said, "have the ability to put it all together."

Mike

 

[MJS]

No, I'm saying that you cannot teach self defence beyond basic predefined movements until Black Belt. Until you learn the basics how can I teach you how to defend yourself when attacked in a random, none standard method? If you've every taught white belts you know most people can't performe a simple three punch combination when they walk in off the street. Never mind a complicated take down.

So a green belt, or brown belt cant defend themselves??? As I said before, a white belt is gonna have to do that preset movement, but by the time you're blue, green, brown, you better be able to do something creative.

I would have students form a circle. One goes in the middle and the others attack. Now, I would not always give an attack that the student knew a defense for. If they were puzzled, I'd say to them, "Do you know how to block? Do you know how to punch and kick? Do you know how to move?" The answer of course was yes. I would then say, "Well, do something then!!!!!!!!!!!" After they thought about it for a minute, they'd say, "Yeah, you're right! I can do this!"

Very simple. Doesnt take a rocket sceintist to figure it out.

Mike

 

[Danny]

I've taught, and I know perfectly well that I can teach raw beginners to train alive. Don't project your failure on the rest of us.

The way that combat is taught in most martial arts is horribly, horribly inefficient.

First no need to be insulting. I haven't failed. Your telling me your going to take some 43 year old over weight mother with two left feet, or some 8 year old kid that can't walk and chew bubble gum at the same time, and on the first day teach them complicated wrist locks, precise pressure points, and what if scenarios were they have to figure out what to do? No your going to explain the basics, show them a few linear scenarios per level, and build them toward a point were the head instructor is needed to expand futher.

 

[KennethKu]

Martial arts as glorified TaeBo, which most are, can be taught by kids.

Fighting skills can only be INSTRUCTED by experienced combatants. Fighting is pure mayhem, utter chaos, and nothing but hell-storm of brutal violence. If you think you can learn fighting from some kids, then you are deluding yourself. Hell, I don't believe you can learn that from 99% of the "sifus", "sokes","GrandMasters", "masters" out there. They are all style but no substance.

 

[MJS]

First no need to be insulting. I haven't failed. Your telling me your going to take some 43 year old over weight mother with two left feet, or some 8 year old kid that can't walk and chew bubble gum at the same time, and on the first day teach them complicated wrist locks, precise pressure points, and what if scenarios were they have to figure out what to do? No your going to explain the basics, show them a few linear scenarios per level, and build them toward a point were the head instructor is needed to expand futher.

Unless I'm missing something here, I didnt seen anyone talking about teaching a white belt wrist locks, and pressure points. You make it sound like a beginner cant learn ANYTHING that they will be able to use, and I disagree 100% with that comment!! A new student is gonna have enough of a hard time learning the basics, nevermind anything fancy. I dont think that you have to train 20 yrs or be a BB in order to know what you're doing. Are you saying that a green belt cant defend themselves?

Mike

 

[Black Bear]

Well MJS, let's be very precise here. He put words into my mouth (nonsense about jointlocks and pressure points--by the way, the first day that I stepped into an aikido class, having never taken any MA in my life, I learned pressure points and joint locks... and so did everyone else there); let's not put words into his.

What he WAS saying was that a person before black belt cannot learn anything nonlinear, anything "random"or not "predefined". In other words, they're confined to rote material. That THAT is patently absurd. HE hasn't done it, so he assumes no one can.

I don't see what was insulting in what I said. I made a statement regarding my own experience. I said that:

"The way that combat is taught in most martial arts is horribly, horribly inefficient."

... a simple claim. If he is not in that majority, I've said nothing that should bother him. If he believes himself to be in that group, then I've told him nothing new. Either way, I don't see where the insult is.

 

[elcajon555]

A green belt can sort of defend themselves. By this I mean that sure they have been taught how to do certain things, but that is all they think about and that is all they will try and if it doesn;t work, then they are screwed, because they don;t come up with their own solutions. The more experience you have the more you are less stuck within the parameters, and think that a set attack will have a set way to defend yourself with it. I still struggle with thinking "out of the box" when I do self defense, and I have been training for over 6 years. A green, at least in my school, as been training for about a year, so it is harder for them to think "outside the box" I see it all the time when we are traing with self defense. But back to the topic of discussion, I think we all agree that the more experience with fighting someone as, the better it is to learn from them. However I still feel that younger people, if they are knowledgable about forms and techniques can teach.

 

[MJS]

Well MJS, let's be very precise here. He put words into my mouth (nonsense about jointlocks and pressure points--by the way, the first day that I stepped into an aikido class, having never taken any MA in my life, I learned pressure points and joint locks... and so did everyone else there); let's not put words into his.

What he WAS saying was that a person before black belt cannot learn anything nonlinear, anything "random"or not "predefined". In other words, they're confined to rote material. That THAT is patently absurd. HE hasn't done it, so he assumes no one can.

I don't see what was insulting in what I said. I made a statement regarding my own experience. I said that:

"The way that combat is taught in most martial arts is horribly, horribly inefficient."

... a simple claim. If he is not in that majority, I've said nothing that should bother him. If he believes himself to be in that group, then I've told him nothing new. Either way, I don't see where the insult is.

BB-- All good points that you bring up here.

 

[Danny]

Don't project your failure on the rest of us.

That was the insult.

Perhaps my other point wasn't as clear as I would have liked. It is not that a beginner cannot learn the things you suggest. It's more that logically in order to work toward an expert level of self-defense technique it is logical to start with the basics and work from there. As someone coming in off the street rarely has to co-ordination, courage, physical ability, what have you, to be able to apply those concepts effectively in a non fixed scenario. Green belts can't defend themselves very well. If I grab them they know how to get out in most cases. They know how to keep their hands up and protect themselves if I take a swing, but I can't think of a Green Belt that could likely defend themselves if someone went after them. I'm thinking of someone bigger and stronger. Any person on the street their size and strength they definitely have an advantage over.

 

[Shotochem]

As someone coming in off the street rarely has to co-ordination, courage, physical ability, what have you, to be able to apply those concepts effectively in a non fixed scenario. Green belts can't defend themselves very well. If I grab them they know how to get out in most cases. They know how to keep their hands up and protect themselves if I take a swing, but I can't think of a Green Belt that could likely defend themselves if someone went after them.

I tend to disagree with this statement. I have seen BB's who couldnt defend themselves and Ive seen green , yellow and white belts that could take out the avg BB. The lower ranked have what I call the "Random Chaos Factor".
They are highly dangerous and unpredictable and lack control. They have the raw tools with out the skill to use and control them effectively and can do a good amount of damage.