WSL...guarding the method

[Juany118]

Do you have links to these other interviews? I would be interested to read them, as this understanding contradicts that which I have encountered before

I'll have to dig when I get the chance.

It is quite possible to make the pole actions without a hand. Better even, since it eliminates distration. Why do you think that wrist action on the swords would be beyond the wit of man to overcome?

Sorry but the first part makes no sense. You need to connect to the pole, to feel it's weight and orientation to, as corny as it sounds, make it an extension of yourself. This requires a hand or prosthetic.

Following that Biomechanics are what they are. More than a few of the movements in the form require wrist movements to achieve certain angles. Now you can adapt your personal method to minimize the need for such movements. So yes wit is indeed used in the adaptation.

Please show me where Callen said this, I cannot see it above... You then attempt to frame this statement in terms of teaching to strengths and weaknesses. But I don't think Callen said it anywhere? In fact it appears to be a direct conradiction of what you claim above. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I get what you're saying, and I agree that what teachers show others is influenced by how they were taught. One of the traits of a good Wing Chun teacher/coach is to find out what drills or training methods work best for which students, and to implement those methods to effectively help them grow.

My first career path was teaching. The "best" way to teach an individual students is to, while maintaining the core principles/material, seeing the student's strength and weaknesses and taking this into account when teaching. In this case it would be looking at the missing hand and simply saying, again while maintaining the core principles of WSLVT "these methods will work perfectly fine, these need a little tweeking and these might not work well at all." It's not changing WSLVT in the least, it's simply adapting the instruction so the student can still excel.

Using an example from teaching History wouldn't work (my personal teaching experience) but I will give one I see every week in Martial Arts. My current school teaches TWC and Kali. One of the members of the school has a form of cerebral palsy known as Spastic diplegia. It primarily effects his left leg but the stiffness doesn't simply have the left hip and knee with limited movement but the left foot is permanently in a severe "pigeon toed" position.

Now this of course limits mobility a bit, but with the tight footwork of WC it isn't as bad as it would be with other arts. His kicking is more effected because of the limited hip movement of course but if you were to just watch his upper body move you would think you were watching a dancer, the way he flows in that manner is impressive.. A large reason for this is because when the rest of the class is performing drills that he would not be able to perform, Sifu or one of his assistants will partner with him for other drills. Again the principles of neither art have been changed, Sifu simply sees the limits that the student has and focuses on the drills that are minimally effected (if at all) by the disease or that can help with the disease itself as he has done research into the various types of physical therapy that benefit the condition. All of this so the student in question maximizes his application of the principles of TWC and Kali, the arts themselves have not been altered, the teaching of the art has simply been tailored within the already established boundaries.

The above is actually why I was personally offended when someone thought I was being disparaging about someone having a physical difference. I would never be disparaging towards one of my fellow students and by extension WSL.

Again I don't think Callen says this (although not sure why Callen is your go-to authority on all things WSL, when you refuse to acknowledge what others from that lineage have told you).

Odd you know so much about what others have posted when you joined but today and only posted for the first time 3 hours ago. That said if you actually look at Callen's posts, we do have some points where we are not precisely on the same page BUT when he responds it has substance. It is simply someone who, in essence, is simply doing the martial arts equivalence of a catechism.

It is true that some other 1st gen students of WSL have created their own teaching methodology. WKL would be another good example in addition to GL. But not all of them have done this and many (probably more) follow exactly the methodology of WSL. There is nothing wrong in what GL and WKL have done. And there is nothing wrong in following WSL's methodology (as PB has done).

But the problem is this the idea that PB is teaching the "pure" version of WSLVT ignores the reality of his physical issue, as illustrated repeatedly, and the differences between himself and other first gen students. As an example more than once WSL stated that one of the purposes of chi sau is to learn sensitivity to the movements of the opponent so that "...You begin to feel a pattern in your opponent’s movements, allowing you to sense the proper angle of attack...", that "...the highest achievement wing chun is to be able to allow your opponent to guide you into the exact method of attacking and defeating him." The feel is important because touch allows for faster reaction. Tests have shown that processing visual stimulus takes 250ms where as touch stimulus takes 150ms. It's simple science.

Now two of main proponents of PB here say that it's only about "setting up" and "baiting" your opponent as if the two concepts are mutually exclusive and that the idea that chi sau is about feeling the openings is simply repeated misinformation. Thing is they arent mutually exclusive and in a real fight you want to feel and flow as well because while one of the goals of course is to use tactics that bait and set your opponent up, you can never rely on the fact that your opponent will "take the bait" and so being able to flow and strike where your opponent is vulnerable is an equally vital skill. So logic dictates one of the following.

1. When WSL said a quote I posted in an older thread (and summarized above) about you never being able to completely control your opponents actions you need to be able to flow and let them show you where to strike he was speaking a truth anyone who has been in a real fight, especially against other styles, knows.
a. if 1 is true then those who say the above is misinformation are wrong. This then leads to another question. Is this a misunderstanding of PB teaching on their part or has PB changed something as others changed things?

2. It was misinformation BUT then this also raises a few questions.
a. how could someone with as much reported real fighting experience not realize you can never truly control the actions of every opponent regardless of the amount of "baiting" and "setting up" and that's where being sensitive and capable of flowing through the small gaps you feel with that sensitivity comes in?

 

[Juany118]

@Juany118, I respect your thoughts and think you mean well here. That said, I think you're walking a fine line when referencing an important part of @LFJ's family. I think it's fair to stand down and redirect focus. What do you think are the benefits, in the age of the internet, of any Sifu of any lineage "guarding the method?"

~ Alan

I hope my more detailed explanation above (sorry if it appears to be a wall of text) and the anecdote of my classmate and the disease he suffers from, while still succeeding, will make clear nothing I am saying here has anything to do about disparaging anyone in any family. Heck my mantra here more than once has been a qualifier "this is not meant to say that WSLVT or PB are lesser than any other lineage". The only point is to say that WSL can say or demonstrate something that may appear different from what PB may teach and

1. not have it be misinformation to guard the system and
2. PB could still honestly say "I teach what I was taught by WSL" while maintaining the core principles of WSLVT if the WSL demonstration appears to be inconsistent.
3. You can say "I teach what I was taught by <insert sifu> if you make it your own in certain ways.

 

[anerlich]

We're all family here. Maybe not biologically, but in the literal sense of what the word Sifu means. Particularly in the context of fatherhood (師父/师父).

With that, I want to recommend using Sifu ahead of the names of those who train others as a reminder of the fatherly (or motherly e.g. Simo) role they play.

We belong to different CLUBS which are part of different organisations. I've been in MA situations before Wing Chun that abused the concept of "family". I have two brothers. No one on here is a relative. When I see "Kung fu family", I think "Manson Family".

I ain't calling anyone "Sifu" that I don't know personally. I know some very highly ranked Kung Fu instructors and call them all by their first name.

I would love to see us acknowledge each other's Sifus as we would each other's fathers.

Sorry to disappoint. I've completed my instructor's grading system and helped bring a number of students up to instructor level. I'm older than some of the guys you suggest I treat like father figures.

I would be within my rights to request to be called "Sifu", "Sigung" or "Professor" in some circles. By your standards, I could demand it of you on here. But I'd give myself a savage uppercut if I ever caught myself doing that.

It's nearly 2017. Not 1850. Come on.

 

[LFJ]

As an example more than once WSL stated that one of the purposes of chi sau is to learn sensitivity to the movements of the opponent so that "...You begin to feel a pattern in your opponent’s movements, allowing you to sense the proper angle of attack...", that "...the highest achievement wing chun is to be able to allow your opponent to guide you into the exact method of attacking and defeating him."

Those are not his own words, and you don't even understand what it's saying.

Sensing the proper angle of attack and allowing your opponent to guide your attacks has nothing to do with tactile sensitivity!

WSL said any tactile sensitivity is a byproduct of training from contact, but is not the goal. In fighting, there is no such pre- or prolonged arm contact! Focusing on sticking and feeling is a waste of time!

In free fighting, you take what comes, take the flank that's given, the opponent's actions guide your attack in this sense.

Do yourself a favor and stop googling and guessing. Make your way into a WSLVT school where the full system is intact and unchanged and learn it directly.

Until you do so, you will continue to have no idea what you're talking about!

 

[geezer]

.....I'd give myself a savage uppercut if I ever caught myself doing that.

Put that on video and you will get a lot of views!

 

[LFJ]

The only point is to say that WSL can say or demonstrate something that may appear different from what PB may teach and

1. not have it be misinformation to guard the system and
2. PB could still honestly say "I teach what I was taught by WSL" while maintaining the core principles of WSLVT.

You don't know what WSL taught or what PB teaches.... So, just stop.

 

[LFJ]

The above is actually why I was personally offended when someone thought I was being disparaging about someone having a physical difference. I would never be disparaging towards one of my fellow students and by extension WSL.

If you continue to suggest PB can't learn unmodified VT, you are being disparaging.

Maybe he can't learn TWC, because you need both hands to chase the opponent's arm. But YMVT doesn't function that way.

As an example more than once WSL stated that one of the purposes of chi sau is to learn sensitivity to the movements of the opponent so that "...You begin to feel a pattern in your opponent’s movements, allowing you to sense the proper angle of attack...", that "...the highest achievement wing chun is to be able to allow your opponent to guide you into the exact method of attacking and defeating him."

By the way, you deleted the quotation marks on "feel". Another doctoring of quotes not even from WSL to make it say what you want it to say.

The above has nothing to do with tactile sensation. You also omitted the line just before it that says chi-sau practice also teaches strategy.

The strategy is abstract. Tactics do not include standing directly in front of the opponent and feeling their arms!

 

[dudewingchun]

Imo the sensitivity really does help for gripfighting in no-gi bjj and in gi to some degree. But in no-gi people find it annoying grip fighting with me because they are just unaware of different movement.

 

[geezer]

You don't know what WSL taught or what PB teaches.... So, just stop.

I must agree, and say that this thread has me a bit confused. I have on many occasions differed with your assessment of other YM VT/WC/WT, but I would not presume to dispute your understanding of your own lineage (of which I know nothing). Why others continue to do so is... a bit odd. Probably best to "disengage" and move on. Nothing productive can come of continuing along this line.

 

[Juany118]

It signifies his changing of the teaching method

The Ving Tsun Athletic Association was formally established under YM in 1967 Origin

WSL officially opened his first school in 1969. However I think Leung Ting trademarked WingTsun (the lack of spacing is not an error) to differentiate his version. That is largely for western consumption though because the Chinese characters are the same.

 

[Juany118]

I must agree, and say that this thread has me a bit confused. I have on many occasions differed with your assessment of other YM VT/WC/WT, but I would not presume to dispute your understanding of your own lineage (of which I know nothing). Why others continue to do so is... a bit odd. Probably best to "disengage" and move on. Nothing productive can come of continuing along this line.

The only reason I am is because I too am confused. I studied under a direct student of Sifu Gary Lam for a time. I know Sifu Gary added a bit of himself to what WSL taught him but its not like he created a completely different Lineage and there are some differences, such as his method of closing, using grappling techniques similar to Chin Na.

Then we have some of PB's own students here saying that any differences are attributed to misunderstanding or lack of complete teaching (DP) or modification (Sifu Gary) yes PB's own organization states on there own web site that WSL worked hard with him to adapt certain things where other Masters said "give up".

Now all of this made me ask myself "hey Sifu Gary teaches his thing, yet was a first gen student of WSL, maybe some of these differences are about what is noted on PB's web site, rather than a "oh that must be something he added. In this way both can honestly say "I learned from WSL and teach what he taught me" and be telling the truth even if certain things are different without alteration after the fact being the cause.

The above distills my wall of texts. Both can be perfectly valid and correct translations of the teachings of WSL while they have some few differences. Thats it. However its attacked as if I am saying that PB is somehow teaching a broken form of WSLVT, which could NOT be further from the truth. If the idea that PB is the only one to teach the unadulterated WSLVT had never been broached this line of thinking would never even have come to mind tbh.


Look at it outside the MA concept for a minute (as that brings a lot of baggage) and lets look at military history. Patton, McArthur and Bradley all went to Westpoint within the same time frame (roughly) 1903, 1899 and 1911 respectively and so shared many instructors and if not the same instructors the same pre combined arms school of strategy but their styles of command, strategy and tactics were very different and the study of why is of great interest (at least to a history geek like me.)

 

[LFJ]

What do you think are the benefits, in the age of the internet, of any Sifu of any lineage "guarding the method?"

People have taken incomplete concepts and gone on to teach, often dishonestly, cheating people out of proper learning, not to mention time and money. Other people are irresponsible and/or foolish and ruin the method. Not feeding the parasites protects the host and those who wish to seek it out.

your comments can sometimes come across as elitist. It's not explicit, but implied in the way you phrase certain things.

Can you quote what you find elitist? Pretty sure I have just been stating facts. I'm not saying superior or inferior.

Some people differ because they have openly made changes. Nothing wrong with that. That's their business.

Others differ because they lack a complete view of the system. It is what it is, and where this is the case I have given thorough explanations as to why their view is limited. It's purely technical, nothing personal or elitist.

When it comes down to technical analysis, this is where people like Juany drop out, because they don't know what they're talking about, and are here to argue for who knows what purpose.

 

[LFJ]

The Ving Tsun Athletic Association was formally established under YM in 1967 Origin

WSL officially opened his first school in 1969. However I think Leung Ting trademarked WingTsun (the lack of spacing is not an error) to differentiate his version. That is largely for western consumption though because the Chinese characters are the same.

What does that have to do with GL changing the VT spelling used by WSL back to WC to signify change to his own GLWC system?

The only reason I am is because I too am confused. I studied under a direct student of Sifu Gary Lam for a time. I know Sifu Gary added a bit of himself to what WSL taught him but its not like he created a completely different Lineage and there are some differences, such as his method of closing, using grappling techniques similar to Chin Na.

Then we have PB's own organization stating that WSL worked hard with him to adapt certain things where other Masters said "give up". Now I said to myself "hey Sifu Gary teaches his thing, yet was a first gen student of WSL, maybe some of these differences are about the changes in teaching focus noted on PB's web site, rather than a "oh that must be something he added. In this way both can honestly say "I learned from WSL and teach what he taught me" and be telling the truth even if certain things are different without alteration after the fact being the cause.

The above distills my wall of texts. Both can be perfectly valid and correct translations of the teachings of WSL while they have some few differences. Thats it. However its attacked as if I am saying that PB is somehow teaching a broken form of WSLVT, which could NOT be further from the truth.

As such I am confused at the vehemence of the reaction which I thought, is actually an interesting topic of conversation because we could apply the train of thought elsewhere. Essentially work backwards... "okay these are the current Sifus under the WSL Banner, here are the differences in their methods (not core principals) what are the possible sources of the differences? Then move to "these are the students of YM...." The breaking down and then analysis of history in general fascinates me.

The problem is you are GUESSING when the information is available!

GL openly changed the system. That's why it differs!

PB's understanding of the YMWSLVT system is no different than his old training partners who started years before him.

Stop googling and guessing, and just go find out directly if you really find it "fascinating".

 

[anerlich]

Put that on video and you will get a lot of views!

Hmmm .... advantages and drawbacks

 

[anerlich]

Imo the sensitivity really does help for gripfighting in no-gi bjj and in gi to some degree. But in no-gi people find it annoying grip fighting with me because they are just unaware of different movement.

To some degree with white or blue belts or people inexperienced with no gi IMO. I've yet to run into a brown or black belt that had significant problems dealing with my "Wing Chun sensitivity" in a grappling situation. I've yet to find a non-grappling Wing Chun guy that caused me any significant "sensitivity" problems in a grappling situation. I train Jiu Jitsu with one of Jim Fung's most senior guys and a number of people with a few years of Wing Chun of various styles.

 

[Juany118]

To some degree with white or blue belts or people inexperienced with no gi IMO. I've yet to run into a brown or black belt that had significant problems dealing with my "Wing Chun sensitivity" in a grappling situation. I've yet to find a non-grappling Wing Chun guy that caused me any significant problems in a grappling situation. I train Jiu Jitsu with one of Jim Fung's senior guys and a number of people with a few years of Wing Chun of various styles.

I got the feeling he was saying "a drill that is in part about gaining sensitivity helps with grappling" in a general sense vs "sensitivity helps a Wing Chun person deal with a grappler.". When you get to the higher ranks in a grappling art you have gained the sensitivity vis the grappling art (at least that is from my Aikido and Judo experience). So if you have "WC sensitivity" and are new to grappling it can help. Might be wrong though.

 

[anerlich]

Look at it outside the MA concept for a minute (as that brings a lot of baggage) and lets look at military history. Patton, McArthur and Bradley all went to Westpoint within the same time frame (roughly) 1903, 1899 and 1911 respectively and so shared many instructors but their styles of command, strategy and tactics were very different and the study of why is of great interest (at least to a history geek like me.)

Maybe, but that subject has been dealt with by professional historians.

Wing Chun history on the other hand is a mish mash of legend, tall story, hagiography, misrepresentation and character assassination by a pack of chancers with hidden and not-so-hidden agendas.

The "conclusions" you seem to be trying to draw are based on those, plus the fact they are on the net of a million lies makes the likelihood of their accuracy about as remote as the Andromeda Galaxy, M31.

No good will come from this.

 

[Juany118]

What does that have to do with GL changing the VT spelling used by WSL back to WC to signify change to his own GLWC system?

Because this was the key part of the quote from Geezer that Hazardi was responding to was...

In other words, "VT" isn't a trademark of the WSL branch. Just to be clear

So I was pointing out this was indeed the truth as it was used by YM's Association first and then noted the one person who, to my knowledge, did actually trademark a different spelling.

I'll leave it at this because as was just pointed out, nothing good can apparently come of this.

 

[anerlich]

I got the feeling he was saying "a drill that is in part about gaining sensitivity helps with grappling" in a general sense vs "sensitivity helps a Wing Chun person deal with a grappler.". When you get to the higher ranks in a grappling art you have gained the sensitivity vis the grappling art (at least that is from my Aikido and Judo experience). So if you have "WC sensitivity" and are new to grappling it can help. Might be wrong though.

As I said earlier, and IMO, only at the beginning, and only with hand fighting. I found that trying to see grappling through Wing Chun coloured glasses hindered my progress after a while and I had to empty that cup.

 

[Juany118]

As I said earlier, and IMO, only at the beginning, and only with hand fighting. I found that trying to see grappling through Wing Chun coloured glasses hindered my progress after a while and I had to empty that cup.

Ahh then our perspectives are different is all. My grappling training came before I studied WC so I didn't realize their was an "emptying the cup" dynamic eventually going on when it came to that. I figured that eventually you just naturally moved beyond it rather than finding it a hinderance. Thanks for the insight on that finer point.