Steve's comment was regarding BJJ rules, as was my response. Outside those rules, obviously, things are different.
Wrestler vs. BJJ guy
- Thread starter Kung Fu Wang
- Start date
Steve
Mostly Harmless
So, yeah, to be clear, there were three takedowns in the match. none of them was obviously a slam, but two could go either way.
There was another thread a while back where, horribly, a kid's neck was broken in a tournament. There were some emotional responses to the situation, mostly centered on the presumption that there was a slam. Broken neck in BJJ Tournament (OUCH) Lots of information about what is a slam and what isn't in that thread.
It's kind of a gray area in BJJ in most cases. While some are super obvious, most are not. in general, in my experience, if you execute the takedown in a continuous motion, and are not elevating your opponent with the sole purpose of increasing the amplitude of the takedown, it's not a slam. So, that first takedown at :48 seconds was terrific and clearly not a slam.
However, at :56 seconds, there was a weird takedown where the BJJ guy seems to jump up to try and escape a guillotine or finger choke (can't really see it). I'd be inclined to say not a slam because the wrestler doesn't hold him in the air for long and the guy kind of did it to himself by jumping up to try and escape. But the wrestler does hold the guy up in the air for a clear moment before dropping him hard.
At 1:56, the single leg, that one could really go either way, again, mainly because the wrestler seems to elevate the bjj guy up, hold him there and then drop him hard.
As I said before, it's borderline. Looking at it again, I don't think it would be called often, but it's in that gray area.
There was another thread a while back where, horribly, a kid's neck was broken in a tournament. There were some emotional responses to the situation, mostly centered on the presumption that there was a slam. Broken neck in BJJ Tournament (OUCH) Lots of information about what is a slam and what isn't in that thread.
It's kind of a gray area in BJJ in most cases. While some are super obvious, most are not. in general, in my experience, if you execute the takedown in a continuous motion, and are not elevating your opponent with the sole purpose of increasing the amplitude of the takedown, it's not a slam. So, that first takedown at :48 seconds was terrific and clearly not a slam.
However, at :56 seconds, there was a weird takedown where the BJJ guy seems to jump up to try and escape a guillotine or finger choke (can't really see it). I'd be inclined to say not a slam because the wrestler doesn't hold him in the air for long and the guy kind of did it to himself by jumping up to try and escape. But the wrestler does hold the guy up in the air for a clear moment before dropping him hard.
At 1:56, the single leg, that one could really go either way, again, mainly because the wrestler seems to elevate the bjj guy up, hold him there and then drop him hard.
As I said before, it's borderline. Looking at it again, I don't think it would be called often, but it's in that gray area.
KangTsai
2nd Black Belt
It seems Mr. Wrestling Shoes won by massive strength advantage. Mr. Compression Top on the other hand lost by honestly not doing anything. What the heck was that guard pull attempt? Why try pulling guard at all?
JR 137
Grandmaster
Looking at for he alleged slams from a wrestling perspective...
Depends on the level of competition. Most high school referees that I know would have called the one at about 0:55 in a slam. Most of them would probably say it's borderline, and make the conservative call. But at high level high school competition, like a state tournament, they'd let it go, allowing the wrestlers more leeway and letting them decide the match rather than the referee potentially deciding it. Both coaches would have probably argued it either way. Nothing dirty about it, but he used a bit more force coming down than necessary.
College level and above, not a chance for a slam call.
Depends on the level of competition. Most high school referees that I know would have called the one at about 0:55 in a slam. Most of them would probably say it's borderline, and make the conservative call. But at high level high school competition, like a state tournament, they'd let it go, allowing the wrestlers more leeway and letting them decide the match rather than the referee potentially deciding it. Both coaches would have probably argued it either way. Nothing dirty about it, but he used a bit more force coming down than necessary.
College level and above, not a chance for a slam call.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #25
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JR 137
Grandmaster
I'm not a BJJ guy, so I'll defer to the experts.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
The only thing that looks dubious is that you're literally tossing the guy. When you let go of the opponent in the air, you can't responsibly return him to the ground safely and with control. I think if, in a BJJ tournament, you were to follow your opponent to the mat, it would be fine. Or at least maintain control through a wrist or the Gi top.
But that's an odd position to find oneself in. I'd be doing everything I could to keep my hips back and avoid allowing my opponent to flank me. I'm not sure that's a throw I'd ever see in BJJ. From that position, I'd probably look for a trip.
But that's an odd position to find oneself in. I'd be doing everything I could to keep my hips back and avoid allowing my opponent to flank me. I'm not sure that's a throw I'd ever see in BJJ. From that position, I'd probably look for a trip.
The closest I can easily think of to this position would be a hip throw, but you'd have an underhook or similar (either cross-arm or near-side) to lead into that, which would seem to preclude this particular response.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
From that setup, seems like you could do the back breaker from pro wrestling.
JR 137
Grandmaster
I was thinking one of the Iron Sheik's many suplexes.
JR 137
Grandmaster
I don't see dropping anyone like this is going to stop an altercation against a determined opponent, competitive or "street."
Maybe I'm missing something.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #32
The average person has no breakfalling skill, so if you drop him on his side from 3-4 feet in the air onto concrete, there's a decent chance he may break something or have the wind knocked out of him or get a concussion if his head hits the ground. If you are good at the throw, you can probably aim him towards landing on his head as KFW indicates. At the very least, after throwing your opponent you are in a good position to either launch a follow up attack or make an escape.
I'm not a huge fan of the throw in question, especially the application shown as a counter to the head lock. It works okay against opponents your own size (as long as they don't break your posture with the head lock), but it's not reliable against larger opponents unless you're exceptionally strong. It can be effective in the right time and place, though.
I think* in a BJJ competition, you'd want to control the landing to avoid potentially being penalized for slamming. You'd want to do that anyway so that you can maintain control of your opponent in order to earn more points or win by submission. Even if the throw doesn't get called as a slam, it's only worth 2 points under BJJ rules. If you leave your opponent unsecured on the ground, he's likely to regain guard and start counter-attacking.
*(Since I'm more focused on the combative side of BJJ than the sport side, I'm not really expert in the fine points of competition rules. I know the basics, but I'm not certified as an IBJJF referee or anything like that.)
