would you be more interested in western MA if...

[jarrod]

i'm putting this in the general forum since it's geared for those martial artists who don't categorize themselves as western MAists.

it seems to me as if most WMA groups focus most of their training on sword, spear, ax, etc. now i'm really glad that these arts are being preserved/reconstructed because they have just as much value as classical weapon-based martial arts from the east. i hate to see any martial art die, & i think it's important to preserve these elements of european heratige. but knowing how to fight with a longsword has little practical application in current times.

so my question for non-WMAists is; would you be interested in a WMA school that focused primarily on arts that had more modern day applications? for instance, a school that combined boxing, catch wrestling, la canne, italian dagger...or any other combination of empty hand & modern weapon fighting styles? would you have any interest in training something from european culture, or would it matter to you one bit? i'm not thinking of opening such a school since i'm not qualified to teach most of these arts listed, but i am curious.

thanks for any input,

jf

 

[Tez3]

Both my instructor and I as well as a lot of people we know are interested in any kind of martial arts to be honest whatever the description. There is an interest in this country albeit a small regional one in catch wrestling as well as local wrestling types, Cumberland, Cornish, Nothumberland etc. In mainland Europe I know there are many clubs who do their local styles of fighting.
Perhaps being in Europe we don't dismiss too easily European martial arts?

 

[jarrod]

that may be. funny thing, i've made several attempts to obtain books & DVDs from the cornish wrestling association, & have received no reply except to tell me that they won't ship outside the UK. it seems they want to preserve their art, but only at home.

i think it the UK it may have a different appeal, since you have an longer history & different sense of culture that we do in the US. i will train whatever works as well, but lately i've been gravitating towards european arts.

jf

 

[Tez3]

that may be. funny thing, i've made several attempts to obtain books & DVDs from the cornish wrestling association, & have received no reply except to tell me that they won't ship outside the UK. it seems they want to preserve their art, but only at home.

i think it the UK it may have a different appeal, since you have an longer history & different sense of culture that we do in the US. i will train whatever works as well, but lately i've been gravitating towards european arts.

jf

Sounds more like a cost thing or a Customs & Excise thing. Long history of war between Cornwall and the Customs officers lol!
Is this the site you looked at? it says it's promoting Cornish wrestling worldwide.The shop though only has three items!
http://www.cornishwrestling.co.uk/index.html

found this too
http://www.freewebs.com/sithneycornishwrestlingclub/apps/videos/

 

[kaizasosei]

Sounds good. I think the world is in need(or want) of more no-bs MA, generally speaking.

If there could be a good balance between effectivity, variety of techniques as well as culture, it would be all the better.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes, I would be and am interested in WMA, and have trained in some.

Most of my WMA training has been in fencing (sport and classical), broadsword, archery, and sword and shield. I've also had a small exposure to boxing and wrestling, though not enough to actually qualify as training in either.

I think that with MMA, good ol' western boxing and wrestling have been given greater visibility in recent years. But there are not many WMA dedicated schools, and none that I know of in my area. And the SCA does not count as a dedicated school, though I have known some very fine instructors who are part of the organization.

Daniel

 

[shihansmurf]

As a boxer, in my younger days, I would characterize myself as a western martial artist.Although my primary art is shotokan, I have heavily trained in American Kenpo which for all the belts and gis, is as western a martial art as it gets, which is a good this as far as I am concerned.

I think that the Eastern arts have the advantages of better marketing(all those great and not so great Hollywood films), and exotic imagery combined with a built in carrot and stick reward system (learn this material and you get this cool shiny belt/sash) for motivating students during training and you have a recipe for popularity.

As an aside I would think that all the Krav Maga students out there would count as westrn martial artists, or are you focusing you questions on western historical martial arts?

Mark

 

[mook jong man]

I went to a seminar once with my fma instructor it was put on by an American guy who was teaching sword , dagger and unarmed combat based on the teachings of some medieval italian guy named Fiori .

I was a bit skeptical when we got there , because there was a lot of hippy looking types who seemed to be obsessed with the "Braveheart " and "Highlander" movies and were all dressed up in the gear .

I was pleasantly surprised that most of the techniques we learnt that day were practical even if you weren't wearing armour . I can't remember the guys name but he was from the USA and he was also into the farmer Burns exercises.

 

[championmarius]

Ironically, As I understand it, the unarmed arts were not emphasized because they were not effective...for the period. With a great majority of the fighting populace armed, what practical use was grappling? It was taught, usually after or alongside armed combat as a last resort. Fiori de Liberi has a very concise text, a great deal of which is sword, sword on sword, armored sword, dagger and finally a few pages on unarmed combat, with some polearm and mounted thrown in for measure.

I think really a great deal of the martial development in Europe was put solidly into armed combat, or at least that is what texts were written about, perhaps because a basic and thorough knowledge of pugilism and wrestling was assumed.

Also I wonder at why the dichotomy between WMA and EMA, the human body only moves so many ways right? Other than aesthetic or stylistic differences, what really differentiates European grappling technique from Japanese grappling technique? What little I do know of each points me to the conclusion that they have similar moves, different names and perhaps a different ideology behind them, but the physics is largely the same.

but, that all being said, I love Irish stick fighting and Langes Messer work, I can throw my Arnisador friends for fits with it. :ultracool

 

[jarrod]

lots of really good points made here.

tez23, thanks for that 2nd website, i hadn't seen that one. why does cornwall have a problem with customs? seems like they should be able to ship a book if they want to.

shihansmurf, i was considering older, primarily european WMAs, but i would definately consider krav maga to be a WMA. i also think you are dead-on about the marketing advantage of asian MA.

mook jong man made a really good point. training in western sword traditions has always appealed to me, but i can't bring myself to take seriously a group of guys who look like the just left the renaissance fair. i know it's not really any more silly than adopting asian costumes & titles (which i'm not a big fan either if it is over-done).

championmarius, i think that europe has always had a very pragmatic approach to MA. it seems to me that once weapons technology became outdated, it was cast aside unless it was converted into a sport such as with modern fencing.

as for the difference between WMA & EMA grappling, you are right, physics are physics & there are only so many ways to throw, maim, choke, or pin somebody. that said, based on what research i've done, the differences lie in the origins. what i mean by this is that jujitsu for instance was designed for the battlefield by the warrior class. it was first & foremost a combat art that developed into a sport, self-defense, & recreational art once it became obsolete for the battle field.

most european wrestling systems were primarily folk arts. the poorest peasants could find an area of soft ground & see who could throw who. the warrior class wrestled too, but primarily to develop the attributes (strength, aggression, courage, etc) of wrestling rather than the techniques. as you said, it was a last resort during combat.

i think that these origins reflect the modern status of the respective arts. once jujitsu lost it's relevency on the battlefield & became open to all classes, it continued as a system of self-defense & recreation & only THEN evolved into a sport. western wrestling styles have always lived or died by competition. once there are no avenues of competition, they tend to die out even if they have value as self-defense arts.

sorry for the long post, lots to cover.

jf

 

[ChingChuan]

For me, the only problem is the distance between the place where I live and the place they teach WMA...

I don't study MAs because I want to be able to use them in the real world - I mainly do it for fun. However, I don't want to spend my time doing something useless and therefore I like it if the art I train has some real world applications - but it's not really necessary, as long as it isn't complete bull ****... (for instance, iaido - you wouldn't use that for self defense but it is a legitimate MA). So if I were to study a western sword art, I wouldn't demand to learn modern applications for the sword techniques because that's not my goal when studying MA.

 

[harlan]

No. Reasons being:

1. Already committed to an art/school. If there was enough time to explore more, would probably explore/expand that study with related material.

2. Even with an interest in my Scottish heritage/roots, I don't see any deep value to preserving anything MA related that is listed specifically as 'scottish' or 'celtic', etc. I'm a beginer, with rudimentary knowledge of weapons and fighting, but from the surface...it just seems to me that the revival of interest is symptomatic of romantic and semi-nationalistic forces at play...and the 'value' of any Scottish MA...over-rated.

3. If I was interested in European MA...I'd focus on the overall changes that occurred in warfare due to technology and changing strategies. Recreating weapons, systems, etc...as only a small part of a larger picture.

i'm putting this in the general forum since it's geared for those martial artists who don't categorize themselves as western MAists.

it seems to me as if most WMA groups focus most of their training on sword, spear, ax, etc. now i'm really glad that these arts are being preserved/reconstructed because they have just as much value as classical weapon-based martial arts from the east. i hate to see any martial art die, & i think it's important to preserve these elements of european heratige. but knowing how to fight with a longsword has little practical application in current times.

so my question for non-WMAists is; would you be interested in a WMA school that focused primarily on arts that had more modern day applications? for instance, a school that combined boxing, catch wrestling, la canne, italian dagger...or any other combination of empty hand & modern weapon fighting styles? would you have any interest in training something from european culture, or would it matter to you one bit? i'm not thinking of opening such a school since i'm not qualified to teach most of these arts listed, but i am curious.

thanks for any input,

jf

 

[allenjp]

As an aside I would think that all the Krav Maga students out there would count as westrn martial artists, or are you focusing you questions on western historical martial arts?

Mark

Unless you consider anything west of China to be "western", Krav Maga is not western, it is from Isreal, which is part of the middle east...

 

[allenjp]

Sounds more like a cost thing or a Customs & Excise thing. Long history of war between Cornwall and the Customs officers lol!
Is this the site you looked at? it says it's promoting Cornish wrestling worldwide.The shop though only has three items!
http://www.cornishwrestling.co.uk/index.html

found this too
http://www.freewebs.com/sithneycornishwrestlingclub/apps/videos/

Went to that first website and it looks great! The pictures show them wrestling on grass instead of a mat. And wearing what basically looks like regular shirts, using them for leverage. Also lots of throws shown. Very realistic type training. Awesome!

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK this will show you where my mind is today.

I saw western MA and thought I like Western Massachusetts just the way it is and there is a pretty good Bagua school there too.

Then I realized you were talking Western Martial Arts.

I do CMA I have done KMA and JMA but I have never had an interest in WMA don’t know why I just don’t. Nothing against it I am just not interested in it.

 

[Sukerkin]

Something to bear in mind about the Western Sword Arts, particularly those based upon Tallhoffer that I have seen, is that grappling and striking are implicit within them. That applies whether you are on foot or on horseback.

From some that I have seen, there would be little to choose between a student of Tallhoffer and a student trained in, say, Ju-Jitsu and Iaido.

Have a look at this site for an interesting browse through the subject from the Fiore manual:

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/

And here for more:

http://www.hemac.org/index.php

And a little bit of Tallhoffer dagger:

http://www.truefork.org/DragonPreservationSociety/dagger1/Talhoffer.php

 

[Tez3]

No. Reasons being:

1. Already committed to an art/school. If there was enough time to explore more, would probably explore/expand that study with related material.

2. Even with an interest in my Scottish heritage/roots, I don't see any deep value to preserving anything MA related that is listed specifically as 'scottish' or 'celtic', etc. I'm a beginer, with rudimentary knowledge of weapons and fighting, but from the surface...it just seems to me that the revival of interest is symptomatic of romantic and semi-nationalistic forces at play...and the 'value' of any Scottish MA...over-rated.

3. If I was interested in European MA...I'd focus on the overall changes that occurred in warfare due to technology and changing strategies. Recreating weapons, systems, etc...as only a small part of a larger picture.

Oh dear oh dear! I have to say you are very dismissive with very little knowledge! Folk wrestling isn't a revival, it's never gone away. People have been doing it for a few centuries now quietly in their own way. I would suggest too that you don't have enough knowledge or information to decide so sweepingly that Scottish MA are over rated.
Cornwall.... Cornish wrestling is done with a special jacket, on grass and there's no groundwork. Cornwall is a Celtic country whos real national sport was smuggling, I'm not saying it still is of course lol but it's coastline is ideal for the land of illicit goods, hence the hatred between the Cornish and the Customs. Breton wrestling is very similiar to Cornish wrestling, in fact the language spoken is also very similiar, both regions compete in the Celtic games where wrestling is one of the sports.
History of Cornish wrestling, note the description of Devon wrestling where clogs are worn and used to kick.
http://www.cornishworldmagazine.co.uk/content/view/49/59/

 

[allenjp]

From some that I have seen, there would be little to choose between a student of Tallhoffer and a student trained in, say, Ju-Jitsu and Iaido

What do you mean when you say "there would be little to choose..."?

 

[Sukerkin]

What I meant is that the combative approaches are similar - weapon work, locks, throws, sweeps and strikes all combined to get the job done.

 

[allenjp]

So you mean to say that there is not one with huge advantages over the other?