Would fencing be considered western?

[Jonathan]

I'm curious about fencing, having had it mentioned by some acquaintances. Has anybody done it? Any suggestions for someone interested in looking into (i.e., what to look for in a school/instructor, good brand names of equipment if any, etc.)

(I'm asking if it's western so as to either place it here, or in the Sword Arts forum).

Thanks!

 

[Bigshadow]

(I'm asking if it's western so as to either place it here, or in the Sword Arts forum).

Thanks!

I think you may get equal response in both places, IMO.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Split rail or picket?

I do not do fencing but I do believe it comes from Europe

http://www.answers.com/fencing

 

[zDom]

I do not do fencing but I do believe it comes from Europe

That is my understanding. And Europe would make it "Western."

 

[thardey]

I've done fencing as a martial art for about 8 years now, but I've never done any of the olympic stuff. (Foil, epee, saber).

We use full-weight period rapiers from the 16th and 17th century, along with the appropriate philosophies and techniques appropriate to those weapons. My sword is about 38" long and weighs about 2.5 lbs.

Currently we're studying a guy named Thibault. (Dutch/Spanish) (You may remember him from the fencing scene of the "Princess Bride" -- "I find that Thibault cancels out Capo Ferro, don't you?")

It's a fascinating look into western history and philosophy. If you're interested in fencing as a martial art, I recommend rapier.

The olympic stuff, however, I hear is a lot of fun, but it's almost strictly sport.

What type of fencing are you interested in?

 

[tellner]

Modern fencing is a combination of a little Italian and a lot of French swordsmanship. That sounds pretty Western to me.

 

[Jonathan]

What type of fencing are you interested in?

I'm not even sure, to be honest. What are the differences? Schools/styles (such as Thibault), sport vs. defense?

 

[thardey]

I'm not even sure, to be honest. What are the differences? Schools/styles (such as Thibault), sport vs. defense?

I don't know a lot about sport fencing, but the basic idea is that you fight on a long, rectangular strip, using very light weight weapons, and the idea is to "touch" the other guy before he touches you. Specific rules vary depending on wether you're using the foil (I believe you take turns attacking and defending, and only touches on the tip count) epee (I'm really not familiar with at all, but it's a short, triangle-shaped thrusting blade), and saber (don't confuse with that curved sword you see in the movies).

I do more of a martial arts-type of fencing. When I got started the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA) had an offshoot that catered to rapiers, but at the time, everybody was trying modern sport-fencing techniques (many still do) using rapiers that weigh about 4 times as much. Different weapons call for different techniques.

Also, we fence "in the round" meaning that the only limits on which way you move are obstacles. Instead of moving "back and forth" we circle around each other looking for openings. If you get "wounded" in the arm, you can't use that arm anymore, same for the leg. If both arms are wounded, or if you are "killed" (head or torso wound), you lose the match.

I don't do SCA fencing anymore, they got some bad publicity, and tightened their "fencing rules" down so much that it's back to a sport, plus the whole scene is not my style.

So for now we approach fencing like you probably approach martial arts, except that we're trying to revive a "dead" art using journals, notes and teaching manuscripts from the best known teachers of the 16th and 17th centuries. Different schools study different "masters" and we get together sometimes to see how one stacks up against the other.

Masters I have studied:
Saviolo: Part Italian, part Spanish. Uses a relaxed, 50/50 stance and focuses on using imaginary circles on the ground to guide your strategy and footwork. Very few lunges, frequent cuts. Heavy emphasis on avoiding and intercepting, rather that blocking. (I.e. "Get out of the way, and leave the pointy end of your sword behind -- let them impale themselves on it. )


Marozzo: Mostly early italian, with spanish influence, I think. Covers a wide variety of weapons, including "bastard" sword, sword and buckler (small shield), dueling knives, and backsword (either a straight saber, or a short, heavy rapier designed for cutting, depending on how you look at it.) He relied heavily on the "triangle" type of footwork I've seen demonstrated in phillipino knife fighting. ("Male" and "Female" triangles). Also focused on avoiding while countering, especially with the heavier longswords. Uses a forward-weighted stance and a lot of cutting.

Thibault: Studied in spain, but merged the ideas with the Dutch to design a highly technical, mathematically-heavy type of fencing. Stance is straight up, with the sword held at arm's length pointing at your opponent. (Imagine a modern-day bullfighter). Strategy is all about moving so that your strength is at your opponent's weakest point. Almost no cuts. Thibault designed his system and teaching style to be taught by book, all you need is a basic understanding of fencing, and a willing partner to practice with to learn it. So, the training and drills are insanely technical and precise, but the actual fencing form is natural and flowing. (That book is available, by the way. Academy of the Sword, by Girard Thibault, translated by John Michael Greer.)

Forms I have fought against, and my impressions of them. (Warning, I have not trained in these, I just look for strenths and weaknesses to exploit.)

Agrippa: As close to modern fencing as you're likely to see. A lot of olymic-style fencers tend to study agrippa, since they're familiar with his use of parry and "riposte" (counter-attack). Most of what you see in movie fight choreography used Agrippa as a foundation. Uses an upright, 50/50ish stance, with a shorter, lighter sword. Not much focus on footwork, more on knocking your opponent's sword out of the way, followed by an agressive attack. (Watch "Count of Monte Cristo", and "Mask of Zorro", to see what I mean.)

Capo-Ferro: A very popular, graceful type of fencing. Uses an extreme back-weighted stance, with long lunging attacks when openings are found. Be careful, though, lunging attacks leave you open! Most of the strategy focuses on controlling the distance between you and your opponent, from what I can tell.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Inigo: You are using Bonetti's Defense against me, eh?
Man in Black: I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain.
Inigo: Naturally you must expect me to attack with Capo Ferro.
Man in Black: Naturally. But I find that Thibault cancels out Capo Ferro, don't you?Inigo: Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa... which I have.
From "The Princess Bride"

 

[Langenschwert]

If you're interested in fencing as a martial art, I recommend rapier.

I quite enjoy Italian Rapier. I'm more of a longsword guy, but I find the two arts to be quite complimentary.

Best regards,

-Mark