Words of Wisdom from this Retired Marine Colonel

[Tgace]

What data your still not telling me what data you think I have or can access.

Because he is clueless.

I'm guessing we cant take reports now because that's maintaining records?

Whatever...

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[Makalakumu]

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3764951

How many ways can we show cops that there is a serious problem with how they operate before they actually listen? Does the opinion of average people even count anymore? People ask me what kind of data I want the cops to be able to collect and I say none, I don't trust the government. Well, here's why. Here's what they do with the damn data. The SWAT team organic farms and rip out their Okra. Is this the Amerika you people want? When do the cops stand up and say I'm not going to Swat team farmers for this stuff and simply go home?

 

[Tgace]

Confirmation bias.

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[Makalakumu]

Nothing to see here. Move along.

 

[ballen0351]

Nothing to see here. Move along.

If they had a signed warrant by a Judge for a marijuana grow operation we use swat as well. Mainly because grow operations normally have bobbytraps to keep people from stealing the crop. Our Swat guys have explosive disposal training. So I'm not sure what your issue is here.

 

[Tgace]

If they had a signed warrant by a Judge for a marijuana grow operation we use swat as well. Mainly because grow operations normally have bobbytraps to keep people from stealing the crop. Our Swat guys have explosive disposal training. So I'm not sure what your issue is here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayerthorpe_tragedy

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[ballen0351]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayerthorpe_tragedy

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Impossible nobody kills for marijuana.

 

[Makalakumu]

Impossible nobody kills for marijuana.

How about when a gang of armed men invade your property with a proven track record of using deadly force and a proven intent to steal and destroy property?

Sure, this gang has all the official insignias to say that they have the right to initiate force against this property owner, but this doesn't change the objective fact that these armed men are invading another property owner's land over a plant that another group of people doesn't like.

If you look at it objectively, it's insane that our society allows this to occur. It's also amazing that more incidents like the one detailed above don't happen. I really hope we can all be more rational in the future and realize what a huge waste of resources and lives all this drug war stuff causes.

Believe it or not, just because one group of people says another group of people are bad, they may not be right.

 

[Tgace]

Believe it or not, just because one group of people says another group of people are bad, they may not be right.

Right back atcha dude.

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[ballen0351]

How about when a gang of armed men invade your property with a proven track record of using deadly force and a proven intent to steal and destroy property?

Sure, this gang has all the official insignias to say that they have the right to initiate force against this property owner, but this doesn't change the objective fact that these armed men are invading another property owner's land over a plant that another group of people doesn't like.

So because YOU like the plant these "gang" members should ignore the legal warrant issues and signed by the judge? They should just ignore the laws (a law that this gang had no part in making) because you don't like the law? So what other laws should we ignore? And because you like the plant its ok for people to shoot and kill police officers

huge waste of resources and lives all this drug war stuff causes.

Yep tell that to the mother of a crack addict.

 

[Makalakumu]

Right back atcha dude.

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There is a huge difference in power that needs to be taken into account. One group is officially sanctioned with the power to initiate force against individuals. This tips the scales of societal impact towards them. It makes what "they" believe more important than what normal people believe because their actions carry big consequences for people.

 

[Makalakumu]

So because YOU like the plant these "gang" members should ignore the legal warrant issues and signed by the judge? They should just ignore the laws (a law that this gang had no part in making) because you don't like the law? So what other laws should we ignore? And because you like the plant its ok for people to shoot and kill police officers

Yep tell that to the mother of a crack addict.

I think you missed the point. Let's look at it objectively. One gang of people says a plant is bad. Another gang of people has costumes and has official jewelry and they believe they can initiate force against another group of people who wants to grow a plant. If one group resists and attempts to protect their property, they get a bullet to the neck...over a plant.

Most people don't realize that they are one or two decisions away from getting killed by a cop. You can get killed for attempting to grow a plant and protect your investment. If you look at it objectively, doesn't it strike you as strange? Doesn't it strike you tyrannical?

I know you didn't make the system and aren't in charge, but simply look at the facts of the matter. People are killing each other for growing the wrong plants and not actually using reason and evidence to figure this out. It's barbaric.

 

[Tgace]

I think you missed the point. Let's look at it objectively. One gang of people says a plant is bad. Another gang of people has costumes and has official jewelry and they believe they can initiate force against another group of people who wants to grow a plant. If one group resists and attempts to protect their property, they get a bullet to the neck...over a plant.

Most people don't realize that they are one or two decisions away from getting killed by a cop. You can get killed for attempting to grow a plant and protect your investment. If you look at it objectively, doesn't it strike you as strange? Doesn't it strike you tyrannical?

I know you didn't make the system and aren't in charge, but simply look at the facts of the matter. People are killing each other for growing the wrong plants and not actually using reason and evidence to figure this out. It's barbaric.

You know who MAKES laws....don't you? You know the difference between the legislative and the executive right? My "gang" didn't procalim anything as "bad".



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[Tgace]

And when we don't enforce someones "pet legislation" we are accused of not doing our jobs....write a ticket for driving on the cell you are a tax collecting jackboot...don't write someone and have someone complain to your supervisor....

Yadda..yadda...yadda...

Ill forward all the "my neighbor uses\sells drugs" complaints I receive from the "customers who employ me" to your house if you like.....

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[Makalakumu]

You know who MAKES laws....don't you? You know the difference between the legislative and the executive right? My "gang" didn't procalim anything as "bad".



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True, but you show your agreement with the "gang" who made the laws through your actions. If you say you don't mind if someone makes raw milk or grows a certain plant and then go and put a gun in someone's neck for doing that, people can see how you really feel about it.

That said, it's not so much a particular plant or raw milk that has me looking askance as society. It's the fact that I'm surrounded by so many people who hate my freedom so much that they'll kill me if I perform any number of non-violent actions...like grow a particular plant or make raw milk and attempt to protect my property.

 

[Tgace]

The gang that makes the laws do so to appease their "customers"...the public.

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[Tgace]

True, but you show your agreement with the "gang" who made the laws through your actions. If you say you don't mind if someone makes raw milk or grows a certain plant and then go and put a gun in someone's neck for doing that, people can see how you really feel about it.

That said, it's not so much a particular plant or raw milk that has me looking askance as society. It's the fact that I'm surrounded by so many people who hate my freedom so much that they'll kill me if I perform any number of non-violent actions...like grow a particular plant or make raw milk and attempt to protect my property.

Who's been killed for growing plants? That guy was killed for killing people...actually he killed himself for killing people. Who's been killed for raw milk? I don't think a SWAT raid should be the first LE option...but your hyperbole is showing here.


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[ballen0351]

There is a huge difference in power that needs to be taken into account. One group is officially sanctioned with the power to initiate force against individuals. This tips the scales of societal impact towards them. It makes what "they" believe more important than what normal people believe because their actions carry big consequences for people.

Here is the thing you seem to forget. We have a system in place where the PEOPLE (thats you and I) elect people to form a society that we want to live in. Right now the people decided we dont want crackheads roaming the streets so we Banned it. We banned alot of things like Drunk driving, Murder, texting while driving, ect. So when you know the law and choose to violate it the PEOPLE (thats you and I again) decided we needed someone to enforce that law. You dont like the law thats fine but its isnt a reason to not follow it. If you willfully choose to not follow it then your also willfully agreeing to except the consequences of that action. You dont like the law find more people that dislike the law and have it changed. We have the ability here to change all laws. We could make Murder legal and ban bubble gum if you got enough people to agree with you. So until you can convince enough people that your "plant" should be legal its not and no amount of whining or crying is going to change that. You dont like the way the system is set up then again find more people and change it or move.

 

[ballen0351]

I think you missed the point. Let's look at it objectively. One gang of people says a plant is bad. Another gang of people has costumes and has official jewelry and they believe they can initiate force against another group of people who wants to grow a plant. If one group resists and attempts to protect their property, they get a bullet to the neck...over a plant.

The gang of people saying its bad is the PEOPLE. We could easily change it if enough people wanted it changed but they dont.

Most people don't realize that they are one or two decisions away from getting killed by a cop. You can get killed for attempting to grow a plant and protect your investment. If you look at it objectively, doesn't it strike you as strange? Doesn't it strike you tyrannical?

BS I deal with thousands of people a year and nobody gets killed. Thats just BS fear mongering. OH no the big bad police man will shot you blah blah blah. Your as bad as the parent that tells their 3 year old to behave or the police man will put you in jail. I totally hate that and always tell the parents thats not appropriate you want your kids to like the police not fear them so when they get lost of something happens they can ask the police for help.

I know you didn't make the system and aren't in charge, but simply look at the facts of the matter. People are killing each other for growing the wrong plants and not actually using reason and evidence to figure this out. It's barbaric.

So maybe the people GROWING the plant should GROW UP and realize its illegal and get over the 70's fantasy of free love and rock and roll.

 

[Makalakumu]

...but your hyperbole is showing here.


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I understand most people are going to think this sounds crazy, but lets re-frame the issue.

This is the "Against Me" argument, a famous philosophic construct designed to reveal the violence at the root of our societal structure. Let's say you and I are equal in all ways and I decide to grow a particular plant that you think is unhealthy or bad for people in some way. If we're equal in all ways, you don't have the right to initiate force against me in order to stop me from doing anything with my property. We have to talk it out and attempt to understand each other using reason and evidence.

In our REAL society, we pay lip service to being equals, because the reality is that some people BELIEVE they can initiate force Against Me in order to make me do what they want. My actions do not include initiating force against anyone's person or property. They are peaceful and harm nobody. And even if you believe that I am incorrect, it doesn't matter, because you are going to force me to do what you want and I will have no opportunity to share any reason or evidence with you. If I attempt to resist in any way your initiation of force, I'm going to either get murdered or kidnapped and thrown into a cage.

Let me say this again, you (or someone you pay) is going to initiate force to make me do what you want and my resistance either means death or capture even if my actions are no threat to anyone's persons or property.

So, let me ask you this, do you really believe that you (or someone you pay) has the right to do this to me?

If you say yes, it means that reason and evidence really doesn't matter to you and that you are willing to kill or imprison me in order to force me to do what you want. We are not equals. You think that you somehow are more special then I and that you can kill, hurt, or imprison me in order to control me. How should I feel about that? How should I feel about you? If you say yes, what does that say about your moral compass?

If you say no, it means you're a libertarian. It means we really are equal and that you respect reason and evidence. It means that you are willing to trust the fruits of negotiation and learn. It means that you believe that you MIGHT be wrong and are open to the possibility.

Ultimately, all law is an opinion with a gun. Some people want to hold the gun and some people do not. That decisions says a lot about a persons fundamental moral quality.

That's not hyperbole, that's philosophy...