Words of Wisdom from this Retired Marine Colonel

[Sukerkin]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...e-warning-about-u-s-building-a-domestic-army/

Good words and good points very well made without being too strident about it.

 

[Makalakumu]

"More Mayberry. Less Fallujah."

That is a good slogan.

 

[Tgace]

I suggest more people go on ride-a-longs or attend citizen police academies before they buy into this "standing army crap".



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[billc]

Hmmm...the Blaze...ins't that Glenn Beck's site...the dark side of the force is strong in you Sukerkin...

Although if the force was a little stronger in you the link would come up...right now it isn't going through...I'll try later...

 

[Sukerkin]

I suggest more people go on ride-a-longs or attend citizen police academies before they buy into this "standing army crap".

Then what is all the military hardware for, mate? I know it's not your experience but there is no denying the stuff is there.

 

[Sukerkin]

Hmmm...the Blaze...ins't that Glenn Beck's site...the dark side of the force is strong in you Sukerkin...

Although if the force was a little stronger in you the link would come up...right now it isn't going through...I'll try later...

Stronger than you might think, Bill . The link works fine for me ... obviously .

 

[billc]

I'm sorry, if the "Bearcat," vehicle is an example they are using, then it is a pretty weak example. I would like to see exactly what they mean by Military gear before I get into a panic. What exactly are we talking about here? AR-15s, body armor, face sheilds, 30 round magazines...?

 

[Sukerkin]

Ask the Colonel, Bill - he'll know better than me what he's talking about.

 

[Tgace]

Then what is all the military hardware for, mate? I know it's not your experience but there is no denying the stuff is there.

I don't know why this wasn't just kept in this thread Suk...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...e-land-of-SWAT/page9?highlight=militarization

Why did the cops in the early 1900's have this?

View attachment 18236

Why did the police have armored cars as far back as the 1940's?

View attachment $Police-history-1.jpg

Does anyone even know what a Bearcat is? It's an armored car...it has no "main gun"...it has no coaxial...it's not a tank.

What do we need one for? Well how would you like to deal with (for example) a gunman who just killed four people who is holed up in a basement taking shots at you? Having an armored vehicle available and some body armor to do what we are paid to do is asking too much? Better I or one of my co-workers catch a bullet?

My team doesn't own one...too expensive...but our Sheriffs dept has one if we need it and Im glad they do. It's far easier to watch a SWAT situation on TV and imagine what YOU would do than it is walking up to the location of a barricaded gunman on foot.

Ive said it before..and I guess I have to say it again...it's not gear that "militarizes" police. Its their action with or without the gear. If I kick down your door and storm your house in street clothes and a revolver it's not legally different than if Im wearing a helmet and carrying a subgun. The overkill stories being bandied about are ALL about police leadership decision making. The trappings are just a diversion from the fact that storming an office building for wood importation records would be overkill if it was done by uniformed patrolmen.

If anyone it truly interested in the roots of SWAT teams "gearing up" (instead of just yelling "militarization!!" and posting links) needs to look into the after action analysis of the Mumbai attack and police preparation for mass shooting attacks.

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/...=display_arch&article_id=1945&issue_id=112009

even though "all yall" seem to have forgotten Mumbai, that attack (in conjunction with domestic mass shootings) plays a LARGE role in US police forces trying to prepare themselves to deal with such situations. As the Bank of America incident illustrated:

Two domestic bank robbers outgunned cops with nothing but pistols and shotguns. What would 4 dedicated attackers with AK's be able to do in your Town/City with officers restricted to Barney Fife equipment?

This is not to say that cops should be walking the streets CARRYING rifles..and they really don't, they are just kept in cars in case of need...or doing routine patrol in Bearcats. But we need to balance preparedness with departmental policies of use. Which is the REAL issue here IMO....if you have issue with what your cops have then the real thing to accomplish is to sit down and hammer out policy, NOT eliminate hardware that could possibly save your life in an emergency.

 

[Tgace]

Ask the Colonel, Bill - he'll know better than me what he's talking about.

The unidentified man who claimed he was a USMC Colonel you mean? And I run a SWAT Team as part of my job Suk..where do I rate in comparison to him?

I've always found it odd that if I were to say "Im a cop Im right" its an appeal to authority (and It would be). But if a guy claiming to be a USMC Colonel makes statements like this it's used as "evidence" to support an opinion.

 

[Sukerkin]

I apologise.

 

[Tgace]

I apologise.

Now now Suk...is this supposed to be a "match" or just a platform? No reason to apologize. My blows are meant to be "in the ring" punches...not "in the street and to the death" shots.

Sorry if I came across too harshly...it just seems like nobody has listened to or debated any of the points I have tried to make on this issue. All anyone seems to want to do is yell "militarization" and plug their ears to anything an officer may have to say on the subject.

 

[Tgace]

I'd be willing to wager LARGE sums of cash that police leaders during the Boston Marathon manhunt said the word "Mumbai" on more than one occasion.

 

[Makalakumu]

At the same time, we have had a succession of presidents who have shredded the bill of rights. We even have an ex president, Jimmy Carter, who claims that the US isn't a functioning democracy. Yes, Tgace, the cops may have always worn jackboots and had military equipment, but the difference now is that the culture HAS shifted. It's going to be hard for people in it to see it because every step on the incremental slippery slope has been rationalized.

I think the truth can be summed up in the recent Gaurdian article where Glen Grenwald reports on just how fast local police agencies gobbled up the NSA data they were fed. There is literally no respect for American traditions anymore. The Constitution might as well be TP.

 

[Sukerkin]

I should have been a bit more loquacious in my reply above, TG; I relied on your telepathy a bit too much there . If it wasn't 1:30 and I wasn't in a bit of an emotional state I'd've said (ooh double contraction ) that I was sorry I started a seperate thread on an issue that had already been covered elsewhere - I haven't read that other thread, tho' I had noted it existence. I was also sorry that I seemed to have touched a nerve, with people who I hold in good esteem, where I intended no such thing.

 

[Tgace]

I think the truth can be summed up in the recent Gaurdian article where Glen Grenwald reports on just how fast local police agencies gobbled up the NSA data they were fed. There is literally no respect for American traditions anymore. The Constitution might as well be TP.

The DEA are not local police. If a DEA agent calls me and states he has information that a person in my jurisdiction is moving kilos of Coke, of course Im going to investigate that. Am I supposed to grill him for his sources now?

 

[Tgace]

I should have been a bit more loquacious in my reply above, TG; I relied on your telepathy a bit too much there . If it wasn't 1:30 and I wasn't in a bit of an emotional state I'd've said (ooh double contraction ) that I was sorry I started a seperate thread on an issue that had already been covered elsewhere - I haven't read that other thread, tho' I had noted it existence. I was also sorry that I seemed to have touched a nerve, with people who I hold in good esteem, where I intended no such thing.

No problem Suk..I do admit that I don't appreciate the implication that I or my department would willingly operate as a "military" against the people I live with. My friends, my neighbors and the people I swore an oath to. I find it a personal insult.

What other departments may be doing is NOT the experience I have had during my career.

An anecdote: It's "funny" (in a non-humorous sense) how a family I dealt with last week wanted us to search their drug addicted relatives room without a warrant...or make up a reason to arrest him and get him out of their hair. I had to explain the 4th Amendment to them. At the same time people are accusing my profession of trampling the Constitution.

:boing2:

 

[Tgace]

If you are really interested in the topic..read this officers opinion. Which is more eloquent than mine.

http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Sa...e-militarization-and-one-cops-humble-opinion/

 

[Sukerkin]

That is a really good (and blessedly short at this hour ) article, my friend. Well deserving of being more widely disseminated.

 

[Makalakumu]

The DEA are not local police. If a DEA agent calls me and states he has information that a person in my jurisdiction is moving kilos of Coke, of course Im going to investigate that. Am I supposed to grill him for his sources now?

Honestly, yes. Either the Constitution means something or it doesn't. I think that in our post 9/11 world, the sentiment you expressed clearly shows how American cops view the Constitution. It's just a hurdle.