Wing Chun grappling
- Thread starter futsaowingchun
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When you use "double neck ties (MT clinch)" to control your opponent's head, if he pins one of your arms on his chest, wraps your other arm along with your head, since both of your arms will be locked inside of his arms, it can give you a helpless feeling. IMO, to apply this move on your opponent when his both arms are still free is not a good idea.
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Kwan Sau
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agree with Kung Fu Wang...not a good idea. In fact, none of these are a good idea. I used to really enjoy learning the chin na aspects of various martial arts. Then I learned wing chun. Much simpler to just strike!!! 
I can see Futsao's ideas having value if perhaps you are a bouncer or a police officer...but...that's about it.
I can see Futsao's ideas having value if perhaps you are a bouncer or a police officer...but...that's about it.
Reeksta
Green Belt
Another good counter to the muay thai plum is to link your arms around their waist in a gable grip and drive forward while pushing your head into their collar area to unbalance them. This is a variation on a common takedown in greco-roman wrestling and I've seen it used in Thai boxing matches quite a few timesWhen you use "double neck ties (MT clinch)" to control your opponent's head, if he pins one of your arms on his chest, wraps your other arm along with your head, since both of your arms will be locked inside of his arms, it can give you a helpless feeling. IMO, to apply this move on your opponent when his both arms are still free is not a good idea.
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The very last, I see what that achieves. They were both going towards the deck. In my mind, they were towards submission. Don't quite see the following move.
Bump "don't"
These seem to be early, early defenses against someone who doesn't really know how to apply the techniques effectively in the first place.
(Mind you, you're very, very unlikely to ever be mugged by someone trying to execute a standing wristlock on you. The best reason for wanting to learn the counters to these techniques is that you want to learn how to apply them effectively and you need to learn the counters that you are going to beat.)
Futsao is trying to show how to counter these joint locks, not apply them. I doubt most cops or bouncers* have to worry too much about a suspect or unruly patron trying to wristlock them. Maybe if they were trying to arrest Steven Seagal ...
*(Sorry - "doormen" for you UK members of that profession. I saw in another thread that some folks had an aversion to the term "bouncers.")
Yeah, the body lock can neutralize the head control - and the head control can counter the body lock. It all depends on which fighter can control the distance and the structure.
By controlling the head, he killed the control for the armlock. They're still entangled at an awkward angle and possibly headed for the ground, but there's no submission.
(Mind you, you're very, very unlikely to ever be mugged by someone trying to execute a standing wristlock on you. The best reason for wanting to learn the counters to these techniques is that you want to learn how to apply them effectively and you need to learn the counters that you are going to beat.)
I used to really enjoy learning the chin na aspects of various martial arts. Then I learned wing chun. Much simpler to just strike!!!
I can see Futsao's ideas having value if perhaps you are a bouncer or a police officer...but...that's about it.
Futsao is trying to show how to counter these joint locks, not apply them. I doubt most cops or bouncers* have to worry too much about a suspect or unruly patron trying to wristlock them. Maybe if they were trying to arrest Steven Seagal ...
*(Sorry - "doormen" for you UK members of that profession. I saw in another thread that some folks had an aversion to the term "bouncers.")
Yeah, the body lock can neutralize the head control - and the head control can counter the body lock. It all depends on which fighter can control the distance and the structure.
By controlling the head, he killed the control for the armlock. They're still entangled at an awkward angle and possibly headed for the ground, but there's no submission.
ballen0351
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Or other cops that run up to the pile and just grab a limb and start cranking on it before they realize its mine....or the wrong person
I suppose it's better than the other kind of friendly fire.
Kwan Sau
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Yep, I know. My comment was also about countering.
Agree that the "distance" and "structure" are the key.
If your opponent's body leans forward, your arms may not be able to reach to his body and lock on it. If your opponent has strong body structure, it will be hard to crash his body structure by using body lock.
The "body weakness" and "body angle" are also important here.
Since the neck is much weaker than the body, it doesn't take much force to twist on your opponent's neck than to twist on his spine. If your opponent's body is facing side way (his chest and your chest are in a 90 degree angle), it will be harder to use your body lock to bend his spine side way. IMO, the human spine is much stronger side way then forward and backward.
I'm sorry but this is an incredibly naive mindset to have. I'm not trying to be Mr. MMA "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the answer to everything," but in a real self-defense situation, somebody's gonna be trying to grab you at some point, and if you don't know how to break a grab, you're screwed.
Trying to grab you, yes. Trying to apply a wrist lock on you, probably not.
Danny T
Senior Master
We practice wrist locks quite often and the biggest reason is to understand them; not to be able to apply them, to be able to counter them. The thing about wrist locks is the counters are easier than the wrist lock.
Kwan Sau
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Ok, apparently my writing skills suck because folks don't seem to understand my view on this. Let me try again in a simpler way: I agree with you Marnetmar...one must know how to "break a grab". My point is/was: I won't waste my time attempting to counter-grab when I have tools available that could problem solve much faster (ie I just simply strike you). If you guys see value in trying to break grabs with other grabbing techniques then good for you... my view / opinion is just strike the guy. Period.
Vajramusti
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Yup. Simplicity.
