Wing Chun Coaches and Fighters to Watch

[geezer]

Personally, I'm a geezer (big surprise there!) and my Wing Chun is pretty traditional or conventional Yip Man lineage stuff. However I'm intrigued by some of the innovative coaches who are adapting Wing Chun principles into broader, modern fighting contexts, including (in some cases) MMA or similar competition.

Two well known figures that come to mind are Alan Orr and Mark Phillips. Do you know of anybody that is working with Wing Chun in such an innovative way and having some success? And, what is your take on this approach to WC? Does it have value? Are they adding to or weakening the art?

 

[Martial D]

I was all about stripping down the model T and souping it up with a modern engine, suspension, and tires.

At some point I decided to just put that stuff in a less restrictive chassis I guess.

 

[yak sao]

I like the Alan Orr stuff but honestly I don't watch much of it.
I don't know if it's the accent or what but he just seems to ramble on and on

 

[jobo]

Personally, I'm a geezer (big surprise there!) and my Wing Chun is pretty traditional or conventional Yip Man lineage stuff. However I'm intrigued by some of the innovative coaches who are adapting Wing Chun principles into broader, modern fighting contexts, including (in some cases) MMA or similar competition.

Two well known figures that come to mind are Alan Orr and Mark Phillips. Do you know of anybody that is working with Wing Chun in such an innovative way and having some success? And, what is your take on this approach to WC? Does it have value? Are they adding to or weakening the art?

your the WC expert, so a question for you, how much can you improve WC and it still be WC

it seems to the outside observer that a lot of the very essence of WC needs to go, to put it on a level playing field with some combat arts, at which point the WC disciples are likely to call foul that there art is being desecrated.

To be fair i have much the same issue with karate, with my instructor often telling me that what i view as an improvement to various things ( certainly improvement to suit my body mechanics and physical attributes ) is NOT karate any more. but as i can generally knock him over using not karate, it asking a fundamental question on who is right on the best application of the techniques, me or a 100 years of dogma

 

[geezer]

your the WC expert, so a question for you, how much can you improve WC and it still be WC

it seems to the outside observer that a lot of the very essence of WC needs to go, to put it on a level playing field with some combat arts, at which point the WC disciples are likely to call foul that there art is being desecrated.

To be fair i have much the same issue with karate, with my instructor often telling me that what i view as an improvement to various things ( certainly improvement to suit my body mechanics and physical attributes ) is NOT karate any more. but as i can generally knock him over using not karate, it asking a fundamental question on who is right on the best application of the techniques, me or a 100 years of dogma

1. I have been doing WC a fair while, but I'm no expert.
2. What you said. ...Maybe we shouldn't worry so much about what others think is proper karate or kung fu. If works OK. If it doesn't it'll die out. Whether it's "proper" or not.

 

[geezer]

I like the Alan Orr stuff but honestly I don't watch much of it. I don't know if it's the accent or what but he just seems to ramble on and on

This ...coming from somebody who uses the name Yak Sau.

OK, I admit I don't watch all that much of his stuff either, but I thought it was just my short attention span.

 

[Zeno Bokor]

We had a big discussion on modern vs traditional wing chun a few weeks ago. The consensus was that the main difference between modern and traditional martial arts was the emphasis on fights for the more modern styles while the more traditional versions tend to also teach the art part of the martial arts. If all you're looking for is how to beat somebody while you're young, healthy (and in the same weight class as the opponent) then don't look for styles that emphasize working softly, not opposing the opponents power, etc, things that most people would classify as traditional because you aren't looking for a martial art, you're looking for a fighting sport. Martial arts are for those that want to be able to defend themselves when they get attacked in a dark alley by a guy that's stronger/bigger/faster/younger than they are. Martial artists don't get into fights, fighters do.

Our sigung tends to be a bit more pragmatic than the normal old chinese master, for him the most important thing is that you can use a technique effectively in a realistic attack and not that you use only things that are considered traditional (somebody attacks you with a weapon and you get into a problem while trying to disarm him? go for the groin). I tend to go a bit further along this line of thinking: i've seen the form of our sigung from ~30 years ago and it has evolved a lot since then (which was also different from what yip man was doing in those old videos) so why are we grasshoppers worrying about what wing chun should look like? yip man probably never called his style "chan wa shun wing chun" the same as my sigung doesn't call his style "yip man wing chun" because wing chun is and has always been evolving, the same as any good story that gets passed down through the generations.

 

[jobo]

We had a big discussion on modern vs traditional wing chun a few weeks ago. The consensus was that the main difference between modern and traditional martial arts was the emphasis on fights for the more modern styles while the more traditional versions tend to also teach the art part of the martial arts. If all you're looking for is how to beat somebody while you're young, healthy (and in the same weight class as the opponent) then don't look for styles that emphasize working softly, not opposing the opponents power, etc, things that most people would classify as traditional because you aren't looking for a martial art, you're looking for a fighting sport. Martial arts are for those that want to be able to defend themselves when they get attacked in a dark alley by a guy that's stronger/bigger/faster/younger than they are. Martial artists don't get into fights, fighters do.

Our sigung tends to be a bit more pragmatic than the normal old chinese master, for him the most important thing is that you can use a technique effectively in a realistic attack and not that you use only things that are considered traditional (somebody attacks you with a weapon and you get into a problem while trying to disarm him? go for the groin). I tend to go a bit further along this line of thinking: i've seen the form of our sigung from ~30 years ago and it has evolved a lot since then (which was also different from what yip man was doing in those old videos) so why are we grasshoppers worrying about what wing chun should look like? yip man probably never called his style "chan wa shun wing chun" the same as my sigung doesn't call his style "yip man wing chun" because wing chun is and has always been evolving, the same as any good story that gets passed down through the generations.

that first paragraph is completely disjointed from reality, there is not different at all between having the ability to '' fight'' an opponent and the ability to defend yourself in a dark alley, non at all. If you can do one, you can do the other. if you cant do one, you cant expect to do the other to any standard, unless your relying on the alleyway attacker being an incompetent drunk, but your sayingstronger, younger bigger, faster and presumably not so drunk they cant coordinate

 

[Zeno Bokor]

There is a big difference between the two, on one hand you're training to beat the smeg out of somebody and you don't really mind if you take a few hits as long as you give more than you get you will win. Our sigung was also like than when he was young but he started to change his mentality after getting over 60 and now he says "hitting somebody is easy, not getting hit is the hard part" (only in broken english). Also, when somebody attacks you on the street there are a few big differences from cage fights, like for instance the guy attacking you will actually attack you and not start sparring with you, maintaining fighting distance and all that.

Your lineage must be very different from mine because we always place emphasis on not using power against an enemy because that only works against those that are weaker than us and obviously those guys wouldn't attack us in the first place.

edit: also, have you ever seen videos of muggings and the like? do they really look no different to you compared to ufc fights? the ones i've seen tend to end in like 5 seconds

 

[Eric_H]

like for instance the guy attacking you will actually attack you and not start sparring with you

Yeah those dudes who practice how to fight day in and day out, and have trained for months leading up to this one moment where the thing standing between them and victory is you still being conscious sure are low key.

I know the point you were trying to make, but you really shot your credibility with this one.

 

[Zeno Bokor]

I know the point you were trying to make, but you really shot your credibility with this one.

oh, i'm sorry, did i use the wrong word? english is only my third language

 

[Willzzz]

Alan Orr's fighters are the only ones where I don't cringe when I'm watching them fight. Their clinch work is genuinely impressive.

Doesn't look much like any wing chun I've seen, and that's probably a good thing. Make of that what you will.

 

[jobo]

There is a big difference between the two, on one hand you're training to beat the smeg out of somebody and you don't really mind if you take a few hits as long as you give more than you get you will win. Our sigung was also like than when he was young but he started to change his mentality after getting over 60 and now he says "hitting somebody is easy, not getting hit is the hard part" (only in broken english). Also, when somebody attacks you on the street there are a few big differences from cage fights, like for instance the guy attacking you will actually attack you and not start sparring with you, maintaining fighting distance and all that.

Your lineage must be very different from mine because we always place emphasis on not using power against an enemy because that only works against those that are weaker than us and obviously those guys wouldn't attack us in the first place.

edit: also, have you ever seen videos of muggings and the like? do they really look no different to you compared to ufc fights? the ones i've seen tend to end in like 5 seconds

i don't even know where to start this, lots of fights end in a few seconds, because of the physical discrepancy between the two protagonists, so the question is will it end in your favour or the other guys, if the guy is younger, stronger bigger faster, then there's a good chance that a few seconds is all he needs to dismantle you and your soft touch style. so you need to train to beat the smeg out of someone, cause that's what you will likely need to do to walk away relatively unscathed, that's before you ask yourself the question of why is he stronger and faster and what can you do to close that gap or even have it in your favour

the alternative is to believe that what ever your skill set is can deal with a physically superior opponent with out any evidence to support your view, of course its very very easy to test

 

[geezer]

oh, i'm sorry, did i use the wrong word? english is only my third language

Pardon the short digression, but your English is just fine. So, what are your first and second languages?

 

[geezer]

...if the guy is younger, stronger bigger faster, then there's a good chance that a few seconds is all he needs to dismantle you and your soft touch style.

Soft touch style? The objective of the Wing Chun I learned was to be "soft" i.e. springy, loose and relaxed, and to deflect, slip or evade an attack rather than block it, and also to be relaxed so you could hit harder. Never heard anything about a soft touch regarding hitting!

In fact, a lot of the same ideas could be said of boxers like Ali. So that part is not really as dumb as you made it sound.

...On the other hand, as far as the younger, bigger, stronger, faster and more aggressive guy winning... what makes you think that's likely?

 

[jobo]

Soft touch style? The objective of the Wing Chun I learned was to be "soft" i.e. springy, loose and relaxed, and to deflect, slip or evade an attack rather than block it, and also to be relaxed so you could hit harder. Never heard anything about a soft touch regarding hitting!

In fact, a lot of the same ideas could be said of boxers like Ali. So that part is not really as dumb as you made it sound.

...On the other hand, as far as the younger, bigger, stronger, faster and more aggressive guy winning... what makes you think that's likely?

there's nothing wrong with slipping and moving, there's nothing wrong with yielding and redirecting, but i'm making reference to his statement that they are trained not to use power, that makes punching hard exceptionally difficult, hence my reference to soft touch

 

[yak sao]

there's nothing wrong with slipping and moving, there's nothing wrong with yielding and redirecting, but i'm making reference to his statement that they are trained not to use power, that makes punching hard exceptionally difficult, hence my reference to soft touch

Playing devil's advocate here...since English is his 3rd language perhaps he was referring to brute strength more so than power?

 

[Zeno Bokor]

there's nothing wrong with slipping and moving, there's nothing wrong with yielding and redirecting, but i'm making reference to his statement that they are trained not to use power, that makes punching hard exceptionally difficult, hence my reference to soft touch

excuse me, where did i say that we don't use power in punches? there's a saying in our country that goes "you've made a horse out of a mosquito". To generate a bigger impact we stay relaxed while punching until the last moment when we tense up as otherwise you'd destroy your wrist from the impact. The reason being that when you tense up your arm you also tense up your biceps which is used for pulling and not pushing so your punch is slower and speed*mass=force.

soft for us is to use less muscle tension than your opponent so that you can switch between working fast while defending and using power when you want to. if you're using more muscle tension than your opponent then how can you feel anything when you get to chi sao range? and if you can't feel then how will you be able to react to him? hands being faster than the eyes and all that. (our style places more emphasis on defense and keeping ourselves safe, probably also because our sigung is 87yo)

My first two languages are Romanian and Hungarian.

 

[jobo]

Playing devil's advocate here...since English is his 3rd language perhaps he was referring to brute strength more so than power?

BRUTE, strength is just a pejorative term for people who are stronger than you. strength is just strength, you either have a lot of it or you don't, there's no brute about it.

to all practical purposes, unless you want a hair splitting scientific discussion, power and strength are so synonymous that they are more or less interchangeable. strength is the ability to generate energy to overcome a resistance, power is the ability to move a resistance in order to do work, the only intrinsic difference is the unit of measurement

 

[jobo]

excuse me, where did i say that we don't use power in punches? there's a saying in our country that goes "you've made a horse out of a mosquito". To generate a bigger impact we stay relaxed while punching until the last moment when we tense up as otherwise you'd destroy your wrist from the impact. The reason being that when you tense up your arm you also tense up your biceps which is used for pulling and not pushing so your punch is slower and speed*mass=force.

soft for us is to use less muscle tension than your opponent so that you can switch between working fast while defending and using power when you want to. if you're using more muscle tension than your opponent then how can you feel anything when you get to chi sao range? and if you can't feel then how will you be able to react to him? hands being faster than the eyes and all that. (our style places more emphasis on defense and keeping ourselves safe, probably also because our sigung is 87yo)

My first two languages are Romanian and Hungarian.

Well where you expressly said @we are trained not to use power. either you are trained not to use power or your are. i have no idea im just reading what you wrote.

the stuff about controlling muscle tension is nothing to do with not using power, good power development requires neurological control.

i'm not sure that training a style based on the physical abilities of an 87 year old is a wise choice, unless you are also nearly 90