Wing Chun Boxing

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by KPM, Jun 15, 2017.

  1. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    3,378
    Likes Received:
    873
    Trophy Points:
    213
    In a modern fighting context one has to be prepared to defend against punches coming rapidly from multiple angles. This is true whether the opponent has an actual boxing/kickboxing background, or is just a street punk with some fighting experience. You can expect these punches to be coming fast enough and at all kinds of angles that make it difficult to nearly impossible to block or parry them all. These leaves you with two basic strategies: 1. Charge in with your own punches and hope you can parry some of his initial blows until you can overwhelm him with your own. From a Wing Chun perspective maybe you can trap him or otherwise prevent him from continue to throw punches. 2. Fight more defensively with "covers"....like a boxer does, and watch for openings in which to throw your counters. This is more "weathering the storm" and "returning fire."

    Strategy #1 can work, but typically does not defend the head well and one can easily take a shot on the way in. There is also a problem here if your opponent manages to avoid your initial onslaught or move away. Then you have to re-engage and risk taking a shot all over again. This really is an "ambush style" of fighting. You close in quick and hope to maintain control the whole time. It isn't very good for "face off"..."back and forth"....kinds of fighting. And you see this regularly when you watch clips of Wing Chun guys sparring....that is if they make an effort to actually stick to their Wing Chun!

    I saw a Wing Chun sparring clip recently where one guy just charged straight in throwing wide punches from the shoulders rapidly the whole fight. He didn't even try to throw nice straight Wing Chun punches. His opponent kept the typical forward guard thinking he was going to parry things. Well, he didn't stop a single punch because they just went around his guard faster than he could respond. And he had no idea how to cover his head. So he took multiple punches to the head and was knocked down about half a dozen times. He looked like he had no defense at all because his opponent was throwing wide punches rather than nice Wing Chun centerline punches. And neither of these guys were beginners to Wing Chun!

    Strategy #2 is safer, and ends up being what most people do when they spar. People will instinctively start to "cover up" when blows are coming at them fast and hard. 52 Blocks specializes in "covering up" in this kind of scenario, even more so than western boxing. But this strategy of "covering up" to "weather the storm" rather than blocking or parrying as your main defense is central to both. And this is what works best when someone is raining down fast punches from multiple angles.

    So the bottom line for me.......Wing Chun would do well to learn how to use these covers and the footwork from Boxing/52 Blocks in order to manage distance and close safely with an opponent. Then when in close, the Wing Chun can kick in with sticking skills and close-range striking and controlling.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. macher

    macher Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2018
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Like I said previously you can only do this by sparring which the Wing Chun schools I visited lack.

    If someone is coming at you with swinging punches which most fights will be the best way to defend yourself or be offensive IMO is western boxing. 52 looks good but so is how Maywesther fights. Pretty defensive but when he sees an opportunity for offense he’s there. Not that any of us can be on the same level as Mayweather but even if are somewhat ok or know how to do it a little; slipping, bobbing and weaving etc you’ll be able to weather out the storm cause your opponent will get tired and sloppy which creates opportunity.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,280
    Likes Received:
    2,915
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Yeah the Chun concept of parrying combined with front foot fighting requires you to have a head like a bessa block.

    The ideas kind of work. It is the combination in which they are used that makes them break down.

    I mean at least incorporating concepts like striking with head off center would raise the odds of winning and reduce a tonne of brain damage.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,194
    Likes Received:
    1,240
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    You have to give away some of your own punching ability before you can take away some of your opponent's punching ability.

    After all those years, I still believe that "rhino guard" can give you the best "head protection".



    You may lose some of your striking ability. But if you have wrestling ability, your lose can be your gain.

     
  5. Martial D

    Martial D Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    1,213
    Likes Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Not always. If you are good at slipping to the outside or bobbing and weaving you can end up loaded for a counter to the outside gate. You take their ability to hit you while enhancing your own in that context.
     
  6. macher

    macher Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2018
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I emailed Rackemann to ask about how he teaches. He said for new people he teaches them western boxing for 12 months because he said Wing Chun integrates into boxing well not boxing into Wing Chun.
     
  7. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    3,378
    Likes Received:
    873
    Trophy Points:
    213
    He may have a point. I do think Boxing integrates well enough into Wing Chun. But the learning curve is probably faster if you start with a good boxing base and then integrate some Wing Chun into that.
     
  8. macher

    macher Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2018
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    8
    How are you teaching it?
     
  9. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    3,378
    Likes Received:
    873
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Half-way in between? I tend to do both in parallel.
     
  10. macher

    macher Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2018
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ok so if someone completely new to martial arts with no experience you’ll blend in both.

    My thinking is the blend of western boxing and Wing chun is the best training to learn how to defend yourself. And you don’t necessarily have to learn Wing Chun in its formal way. You just have to be taught in a way that’s most practical for real life combat. Where western boxing comes in is distance and learning to be able to detect / slip / parry etc your opponents strikes.

    Here’s a couple teresting videos...





    Not sure if I’m mis-interpreting but I don’t agree to use boxing to get into short range or a means to bridge the gap then use Wing Chun. If I have a good jab then can keep the distance out of Wing Chun range and it’s working why not use that jab as a set up for a hook which can be almost medium range even though it would be a wide hook.

    Did some light medium sparring with our son. And I told him come at me like a brawler with typical punches like in a street fight. 52 Blocks worked although I need a lot more practice. I kept the sparring at medium range then I was able to step in a little a use my left hook. Was defensive at first cause he was swinging and I ‘weathered out the storm’. This is real life combat MA IMO.

    The thing is if you’re defending yourself and you know more than your opponent then you’ll be ok. But if you’re going against someone who’s an experienced boxer let’s say you’ll get your assed kicked. But most situations will be against a street brawler, someone who comes at you swinging.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  11. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    3,378
    Likes Received:
    873
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Ok so if someone completely new to martial arts with no experience you’ll blend in both.

    ---Yes. But the base would be boxing. The core biomechanics I teach are from western boxing and I show how to do the Wing Chun from that base. We usually train outdoors at a local park. But over the winter we were in my basement. So I took that opportunity to focus on level one of "classical" Ku Lo Wing Chun. I showed my small group the sets, how to do them on the dummy, and the two-man exercises that went with them. We also still trained some boxing, but couldn't really use the back and forth footwork or do any effective sparring in my basement. Now the weather is nice again and today we started back at the park. So now we are back to "Wing Chun Boxing mode", but hopefully the guys have a little better perspective having done a bit of the "classical" Wing Chun.

    My thinking is the blend of western boxing and Wing chun is the best training to learn how to defend yourself. And you don’t necessarily have to learn Wing Chun in its formal way. You just have to be taught in a way that’s most practical for real life combat. Where western boxing comes in is distance and learning to be able to detect / slip / parry etc your opponents strikes.

    ---Exactly!

    Not sure if I’m mis-interpreting but I don’t agree to use boxing to get into short range or a means to bridge the gap then use Wing Chun. If I have a good jab then can keep the distance out of Wing Chun range and it’s working why not use that jab as a set up for a hook which can be almost medium range even though it would be a wide hook.

    ---That's true. But what if you can't keep him out at the end of your jab? Then you essentially have to try and clinch him, then push away back to your punching range. That's where Wing Chun would kick in. If you can't keep him at distance, or he is pretty good at avoiding any damaging blows at that distance and you are at somewhat of a stalement.....that's when you close in and start working at "Wing Chun range." You are essentially saying..."If I am a good boxer on the outside range, then why do I need Wing Chun?" That's the same argument as a Wing Chun guy saying..."If I am good at close range with Wing Chun, then why do I need western boxing?" The answer to both questions would be....."You don't!" However, if you want to "expand your game" and be good on both the outside ranges and inside ranges, then you consider doing a hybrid "Wing Chun Boxing." Each can fill in a gap for the other.


    The thing is if you’re defending yourself and you know more than your opponent then you’ll be ok. But if you’re going against someone who’s an experienced boxer let’s say you’ll get your assed kicked. But most situations will be against a street brawler, someone who comes at you swinging.

    ---Very true! But then the experienced boxer may not be prepared to deal with the responses he would get from a Wing Chun on the inside! The Wing Chun guy just has to be able to get to the inside without getting knocked out first! ;)
     
  12. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    3,378
    Likes Received:
    873
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Sorry! Tried to post a FB video, but it didn't work!
     
  13. macher

    macher Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2018
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Doesn’t work. Is there a link or something?

    Just did some light medium sparring with both our sons. We drilled ‘closed door’ from swinging / hooks. Very effective although we need practice.
     
  14. macher

    macher Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2018
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Watched a number of your videos today while watching the NBA playoffs. Do you teach Wing Chun in a traditional way for Wing Chun Boxing? Or do you teach WC application / form in a way to integrate it into boxing?

    For instance Lan Sau. You can apply this when you’re in tight to get some distance to lunch or you can use it to keep distance from your opponent.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018 at 5:16 PM
  15. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    3,378
    Likes Received:
    873
    Trophy Points:
    213
    I've done both. Over the winter I taught pretty "classical" Ku Lo Wing Chun to my guys just so they would have a sense of where the Wing Chun was coming from. But its more efficient to just teach boxing fundamentals and mechanics and then start adapting various Wing Chun techniques to that. Ku Lo Wing Chun is taught in short forms or "San Sik", rather than the longer forms most people are familiar with. So it is relatively easy to change the core mechanics in those short forms to boxing mechanics and still do essentially the same techniques and applications. I don't think other versions of Wing Chun would be as directly adaptable to "Wing Chun Boxing."
     
  16. macher

    macher Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2018
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Yea from doing some research Ku Lo / Pin Sun seems more adaptable to Wing Chun Boxing. I’ve tried searching for a Ku Lo school near me and there isn’t any.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. wingchun100

    wingchun100 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    3,106
    Likes Received:
    474
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Troy NY
    I have watched and enjoyed several Rackemann videos. In my own personal journey, I was attending a JKD class because my Wing Chun Sifu was out of commission due to back surgery. At the JKD class I had my eyes opened to the importance of footwork, head movement, timing, and distance. Most of these are not achieved through Chi Sao since you are already in arm's length of each other. Therefore, that rules out footwork and distance. As for head movement, we were always encouraged to NOT move our heads at all. I mean, maybe we veer off the center, but we definitely didn't do anything like ducking, bobbing, weaving, or slipping. We still developed timing of course, and footwork was developed to a certain extent because you aren't going to do Chi Sao standing in one spot, but it was not developed the way it is in Western boxing.

    My stay at JKD didn't last too long, but I am glad I got to learn what I did out of it. In the meantime, I'm still looking to join a boxing gym so I can keep working on those missing pieces.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  18. Martial D

    Martial D Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    1,213
    Likes Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    123
    I have found boxing/kickboxing to have improved my WC dramatically. I am about positive WC involved a lot more head movement and footwork at some point simply because it WORKS that way. It's next to impossible to effectively use WC from a classical WC stance in my experience.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. TMA17

    TMA17 Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2017
    Messages:
    304
    Likes Received:
    87
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Those are crucial elements in striking. A must regardless of style. Boxing will definitely help fill in those pieces.

    Bruce Lee found the same problems with WC. WC seems to be most effective in that sort of gray area.
     
  20. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    4,555
    Likes Received:
    3,145
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    The WT I learned does place a heavy emphasis on footwork. Not so much for head movement.

    The thought does raise some possibilities. Recently I've been studying Cus D'Amato's "peekaboo" boxing style. This approach is built on a stance which is much more square on than the typical boxing stance, closer to a WC approach. This stance is used to allow for serious side-to-side head movement. It would be interesting to see how I could apply a WC/WT engine along with that sort of head movement.
     

Share This Page

Search tags for this page
content
,

wing chun and close range boxing

,
wing chun boxing
,
wing chun boxing incomplete