Will you say something that you can't prove it?

[dvcochran]

Or if your a cnc guy who is running a 3D printer who also happens to be an alcoholic....then you need to make sure your program is proven, before making your printer proof of concept,,, but not before taking a sip of that 80 proof whiskey.

Wow, that sounds like you have some experience! Don't forget your end statement.

 

[dvcochran]

Nope.

What is PROOF? definition of PROOF (Black's Law Dictionary)
proof
Standard Of Proof - FindLaw
Full Proof Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.
Means of Proof Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.

I like the "reasonable doubt" in the definition. Even reasonable is a very subjective term.

 

[lklawson]

I like the "reasonable doubt" in the definition. Even reasonable is a very subjective term.

The point being that the claim "Proof is a purely mathematical term" is is inaccurate, unfortunately for the claimant.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[drop bear]

I do say stuff I can't prove. But I will prove what I can. I try not to beat people over the head with unprovable stuff.

And will accede a point I can't prove.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nobody can prove anything, outside of mathematics. (Proof is a purely mathematical term).

What we can do is examine what evidence is available to us, and use that to arrive at a working conclusion which may or may not be strictly true.

So yes, everyone says things that are not 'provable' every time they open their mouths to speak something that isn't hard math

I'll dispute the notion that proof is a purely mathematical term. There are other usages besides math.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which is never. The law deals in evidence.

From legal.com:

proof

n. confirmation of a fact by evidence. In a trial, proof is what the trier of the fact (jury or judge without a jury) needs to become satisfied that there is "a preponderance of the evidence" in civil (non-criminal) cases and the defendant is guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt" in criminal prosecutions. However, each alleged fact must be proved separately, as must all the facts necessary to reach a judgment for the plaintiff (the person filing a lawsuit) or for the prosecution (the "people" or "state" represented by the prosecutor). The defendants in both civil suits and criminal trials need not provide absolute "proof" of non-responsibility in a civil case or innocence (in a criminal case), since the burden is on the plaintiff or prosecution to prove their cases (or prove the person guilty).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Or if your a cnc guy who is running a 3D printer who also happens to be an alcoholic....then you need to make sure your program is proven, before making your printer proof of concept,,, but not before taking a sip of that 80 proof whiskey.

Or a print shop providing a prepress proof to a distillery for their latest ad for that 80-proof whiskey.

 

[_Simon_]

Hehe.. well nothing is truly provable anyway, and it's only provable within the confines of that particular structure or belief system to use as a reference point or foundation. Without that, it's just floating words . Any system/method of 'provability' has inherent within it the limitation of its own basis. Once you question the basis, it leaves not much to say, much less prove!

We can use logic, evidence of repeatability/consistency (the scientific method), just anecdotal experience, or other means for the time being for entertainment. (But I sense a slippery slope emerging for the future of this thread... can't prove it though XD )

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hehe.. well nothing is truly provable anyway, and it's only provable within the confines of that particular structure or belief system to use as a reference point or foundation. Without that, it's just floating words . Any system/method of 'provability' has inherent within it the limitation of its own basis. Once you question the basis, it leaves not much to say, much less prove!

We can use logic, evidence of repeatability/consistency (the scientific method), just anecdotal experience, or other means for the time being for entertainment. (But I sense a slippery slope emerging for the future of this thread... can't prove it though XD )

I don't think "prove" has to be an absolute. There's a reason the law says things like "prove beyond a reasonable doubt". I can prove people sometimes tackle in fights by showing a video of a fight where someone tackles. Could it be staged or somehow faked? Sure, but as long as we don't get too deep into philosophical hypotheticals, we can all agree it's possible to prove (within the most common non-math usages) some things. To what degree are they proven? That's another part of the question.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Will you say something that you can't prove it? What if someone doesn't believe in what you have said?

Here is an example.

A: I have seen someone did ...
B: I don't believe what you have said.
A: $#%@*&^.
B: &^%$#@.

Your thought?

There is a difference between saying something you can't prove and deceiving someone. Saying something you can't prove is normal. Religion being the biggest example. A scientist and their hypothesis. Things that happened in my child hood, for example, when I threw a rock and hit a snake that I thought was about to bite my friend. There's tons of stuff that's true that we can't prove. The legal system is full of examples, of people who are innocent but have no way of proving it. So if someone tells you that you robbed the store at 11pm but you knew you were home by yourself sleeping. Then how do you prove that you were where you said you were at the time of the crime?

The thing that rubs most people the wrong way is deception where someone says something that they know isn't true only because they know you can't prove that what they say is a lie.

As far as believing someone believing me, I don't care what other's think except the cops, feds, and jury. Other than that, people can believe what they want. I only say that because I know that's what they are going to do anyway regardless of what I want them to believe.

Trying to get people to believe you can be very exhausting, so if you want someone to believe you, then make sure it's worth the effort. I'll use myself as an example. When I first joined the site, I had a lot of people who thought I couldn't do the thing I claimed. So I busted out the videos to show me doing what was said to be impossible. In my mind, the gain was much bigger than the pain of me trying to get someone to believe me. I had a chance to share some information to another Jow Ga practitioner this week about his efforts to go from form to application, but I didn't. I felt it just wouldn't be worth telling that person as much as I've shared here.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Proof is dynamic and it changes from culture to culture and even withing certain social groups. Proof never means the same thing Prove people can't fly, Prove people can fly, Prove chemistry isn't witchcraft. Prove witch craft was just chemistry. Throughout history "proof" has been on different sides of good and bad.

For the most part proof is going to be what your audience believes. It doesn't have to be true and it doesn't have to be some complicated math fact for it to be proof.

 

[dvcochran]

I do say stuff I can't prove. But I will prove what I can. I try not to beat people over the head with unprovable stuff.

And will accede a point I can't prove.

Your last statement is where people often fall short. I see it as a logical decision. If the equation/debate/argument/etc.. gets to the point where accession is the logical answer, it is the logical thing to do. Takes the emotion out of the decision.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Your last statement is where people often fall short. I see it as a logical decision. If the equation/debate/argument/etc.. gets to the point where accession is the logical answer, it is the logical thing to do. Takes the emotion out of the decision.

People are inherently not very logical, even when we think we are.

 

[Martial D]

Nope.

What is PROOF? definition of PROOF (Black's Law Dictionary)
proof
Standard Of Proof - FindLaw
Full Proof Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.
Means of Proof Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.

Yes, those are all legal definitions, and even that sort of 'proof' is built off of evidence. You don't ''offer' proof, you arrive at proof(in a legal sense).

Context is important.

The context here is to offer proof for your statements..which you can't(again, unless you are offering mathematical proof). You can only provide evidence..even in a court of law.

 

[lklawson]

Yes, those are all legal definitions, and even that sort of 'proof' is built off of evidence. You don't ''offer' proof, you arrive at proof(in a legal sense).

Context is important.

The context here is to offer proof for your statements..which you can't(again, unless you are offering mathematical proof). You can only provide evidence..even in a court of law.

The point being that the claim "Proof is a purely mathematical term" is is inaccurate, unfortunately for the claimant.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Buka]

Fortunately, we can depend on some segments of society never fibbing to us. Politicians, lawyers, karate teachers, the clergy, repair men, in laws, kids, adults. Everything except dogs.

 

[Martial D]

The point being that the claim "Proof is a purely mathematical term" is is inaccurate, unfortunately for the claimant.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

As does context, unfortunately for the peanut gallery.

 

[lklawson]

As does context, unfortunately for the peanut gallery.

And I bet the grapes were sour too, eh Mr. Fox?

 

[Martial D]

And I bet the grapes were sour too, eh Mr. Fox?

You tell me, you're the one taking things out of context just to make pointless pedantic objections.

 

[lklawson]

You tell me, you're the one taking things out of context just to make pointless pedantic objections.

You mean like "proof is purely a mathematical term" in response to the OP, Mr. Fox?