Why?

[JowGaWolf]

If someone has a solid base in a similar style, then they don't need the online training.

Not true. Online training can teach basics and then dive deeper into techniques that students already know. For example this is my Sifu explaining a technique, that's part of the beginner Jow Ga form, to an existing student who had a question about the technique. To anyone else, this isn't going to make sense but to a Jow Ga student who has done this technique, they will gain a better understanding. I didn't request this video but I did learn from it. My clearing hand was more of a parry which means that I was doing the technique too low. Now I have to unlearn a habit and develop a new one when I use this technique.

This is another video of my Sifu Explaining a basic Jow Ga punch. This one a beginner could learn. He actually spent more time in this one video explaining the technique then he does when he teaches in person. It takes about 3 months to get all of the information that he gives and even then a student will only get the information that he actually needs. If you are able to swing your arms and move your feet without problem then you won't get the lecture and details about moving the feet until maybe later on. For example, my Sifu has never told me about using weights in training this punch and it's probably because he felt like I didn't need to use the weights. But everything else he said took me about 6 months of training at the school to get all of that information, where it took everyone else 6 minutes. If anyone follows this training video they will learn how to do this technique more or less. There are some things that students do because they miss what the instructor is doing, but if you don't miss anything. Then you would learn this technique. The application of the technique is a different story, that requires sparring.

Like others have stated there will be limitations to videos. It's like a Bell Curve. There are some beginner things that can be taught online but as the techniques become more advanced the better it's going to be to have an on site instructor who can view from multiple angles as the technique is done and who can physically place the student into a correct position and say "This is where that arm needs to be." After learning some of the advanced techniques students should have a better understanding of how things work in terms of the mechanics of what is being done. When a student reaches this point the they should be able to learn from videos again.

It's the points between being a new beginner learning the basics and being an advanced student where the instructor becomes critical. For some people being a beginner may require an instructor but for most students and most systems the basics are things that we can learn and probably already have the coordination to do it for the most part.

 

[Flying Crane]

Not true. Online training can teach basics and then dive deeper into techniques that students already know. For example this is my Sifu explaining a technique, that's part of the beginner Jow Ga form, to an existing student who had a question about the technique. To anyone else, this isn't going to make sense but to a Jow Ga student who has done this technique, they will gain a better understanding. I didn't request this video but I did learn from it. My clearing hand was more of a parry which means that I was doing the technique too low. Now I have to unlearn a habit and develop a new one when I use this technique.

This is another video of my Sifu Explaining a basic Jow Ga punch. This one a beginner could learn. He actually spent more time in this one video explaining the technique then he does when he teaches in person. It takes about 3 months to get all of the information that he gives and even then a student will only get the information that he actually needs. If you are able to swing your arms and move your feet without problem then you won't get the lecture and details about moving the feet until maybe later on. For example, my Sifu has never told me about using weights in training this punch and it's probably because he felt like I didn't need to use the weights. But everything else he said took me about 6 months of training at the school to get all of that information, where it took everyone else 6 minutes. If anyone follows this training video they will learn how to do this technique more or less. There are some things that students do because they miss what the instructor is doing, but if you don't miss anything. Then you would learn this technique. The application of the technique is a different story, that requires sparring.

Like others have stated there will be limitations to videos. It's like a Bell Curve. There are some beginner things that can be taught online but as the techniques become more advanced the better it's going to be to have an on site instructor who can view from multiple angles as the technique is done and who can physically place the student into a correct position and say "This is where that arm needs to be." After learning some of the advanced techniques students should have a better understanding of how things work in terms of the mechanics of what is being done. When a student reaches this point the they should be able to learn from videos again.

It's the points between being a new beginner learning the basics and being an advanced student where the instructor becomes critical. For some people being a beginner may require an instructor but for most students and most systems the basics are things that we can learn and probably already have the coordination to do it for the most part.

To sum this up, are you saying that a beginner can learn more from a video and has less need for face-to-face with an instructor than an advanced person does? Is that your position? I'm not certain that I am following your post, and want to be sure I am clear on what you are saying.

 

[JowGaWolf]

are you saying that a beginner can learn more from a video and has less need for face-to-face with an instructor than an advanced person does?

No I'm not saying this. The amount of information given is going to be based on the Instructor making the video. In general when you make a video about punching you have to add more detail about a punch because if you don't then your instructional video will be 10 seconds long. So in this light, the beginner is getting more information at one time, than they normally would in a school.
Here's an example: No one gets this type of detail when learning how to Jab. It would make an in person class boring. But what does happen is that Instructors will gradually improve the students jab over the months of training. Keep in mind that when you are in a class you are learning more than just a jab.

Now here the same example of how to throw a jab (which I'm sure it's longer in his DVD), but notice how short this video is and it really doesn't show how to throw a jab. If someone didn't know any better than they would assume that this is all there is to throwing a jab.

When you make instructional videos the student gets a lot of information at once. Sometimes this is good and sometimes it's bad. At my school the instructor intentionally slow drip information so that they don't become so overwhelm. We don't want the student to put so much taught into what they are doing that it actually prevents them from trying. My Sifu doesn't give all of that information about the punch all at once. We slowly get that information. We often compare kung fu like a stone statue. We don't try to make the statue all at once. We slowly chip away, making corrections, and building a good foundation.

I still say that it's better to have in person training, but there are some times where video training can be substituted and other times where it can't.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Oh I forgot to add that the other thing I don't like about learning from a video is that there may not be an opportunity to ask the instructor teaching in the video for clarification. I tried to learn through video a long time ago and when I had questions, I didn't have anyone I could ask. In this age in time. Being able to interact with an instructor, including sending video to the instructor for feedback is a must.

Trying to learn in a vacuum is definitely not recommended. This was the first video I tried to learn from. Total waste of time back then because I didn't have the foundation that I do now and I couldn't ask questions. For me movement has to have purpose. I can't do movement just for movement without meaning or purpose.

 

[JowGaWolf]

To sum this up, are you saying that a beginner can learn more from a video and has less need for face-to-face with an instructor than an advanced person does? Is that your position? I'm not certain that I am following your post, and want to be sure I am clear on what you are saying.

To be honest I'm interested in seeing what my Sifu does when his online student gets beyond the basics and into the intermediate skill levels, where that in person training becomes helpful.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ok, I get what you are saying and I agree with regards to giving a student a bit of information at a time to get them working on it, and then further refinements over time.

I guess my feeling is really this: it does not matter how high is the quality and completeness of the video. It could be perfectly done and perfectly presented and perfectly complete, and perfectly explained but none of that matters. Training this stuff requires frequent feedback both verbally and hands-on. You cannot get that thru video alone, and that is what a beginner needs. That is why I will always say it is a bad idea. I won't say it's a less good idea or that it's not preferable. I will always say, it's a bad idea, don't do it. That is with regard to beginners.

For an advanced student, if their experience is good enough that they could actually learn a system from video alone, then they don't need it. What they might learn from the video, they already know. Learning a style from video will not give him anything that he does not already have. The experience that he already has, that makes it possible for him to learn a system by video, is exactly what makes it unnecessary, even a waste of his time, to actually do it.

 

[JR 137]

Ok, I get what you are saying and I agree with regards to giving a student a bit of information at a time to get them working on it, and then further refinements over time.

I guess my feeling is really this: it does not matter how high is the quality and completeness of the video. It could be perfectly done and perfectly presented and perfectly complete, and perfectly explained but none of that matters. Training this stuff requires frequent feedback both verbally and hands-on. You cannot get that thru video alone, and that is what a beginner needs. That is why I will always say it is a bad idea. I won't say it's a less good idea or that it's not preferable. I will always say, it's a bad idea, don't do it. That is with regard to beginners.

For an advanced student, if their experience is good enough that they could actually learn a system from video alone, then they don't need it. What they might learn from the video, they already know. Learning a style from video will not give him anything that he does not already have. The experience that he already has, that makes it possible for him to learn a system by video, is exactly what makes it unnecessary, even a waste of his time, to actually do it.

You make some valid points. Here's a hypothetical scenario...

Let's say I'm a Kyokushin 4th dan who's run my own dojo for several years now. Mas Oyama (the founder) passes away, and a few years later several people are claiming they're the rightful heir to the organization. The organization splits multiple ways and a ton of politics are involved, such as if I train with guys from one group, the other excommunicate me, ad nauseam.

I've always had a ton of respect for Joko Ninomiya and his Enshin karate approach. He's a former Kyokushin guy who left with his teacher several years ago, and he's evolved the system into something quite effective IMO.

I don't have personal access to him, but through video and videoconferencing with an occasional trip to Denver, I can effectively learn the elements he's changed.

I don't have to do this; I can do my own thing as I'm qualified and good enough to keep doing what I've done. I'm on my own, but that's ok. Or I can start training this way and potentially grow. I also have a network of individuals and dojos I can gather with periodically to train with and exchange ideas.

Someone who's been at it for a while doesn't have to. But the right teacher and organization can surely make it beneficial to him and his students. None of this has anything to do with business/finances. It has to do with pure MA improvement.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I guess my feeling is really this: it does not matter how high is the quality and completeness of the video. It could be perfectly done and perfectly presented and perfectly complete, and perfectly explained but none of that matters. Training this stuff requires frequent feedback both verbally and hands-on.

I agree with this as well.

Learning a style from video will not give him anything that he does not already have.

It may give him a better understanding of what he's doing. Similar to how some of the discussions about other martial art systems have helped me better understand my own. By understanding more how WC operates I now have a better understanding of some of my techniques and why those techniques are done a certain way. I think the only way I have the understanding that I do now is because I'm analytical by nature and I pretty much think about Jow Ga Kung Fu techniques all the time.

 

[Flying Crane]

You make some valid points. Here's a hypothetical scenario...

Let's say I'm a Kyokushin 4th dan who's run my own dojo for several years now. Mas Oyama (the founder) passes away, and a few years later several people are claiming they're the rightful heir to the organization. The organization splits multiple ways and a ton of politics are involved, such as if I train with guys from one group, the other excommunicate me, ad nauseam.

I've always had a ton of respect for Joko Ninomiya and his Enshin karate approach. He's a former Kyokushin guy who left with his teacher several years ago, and he's evolved the system into something quite effective IMO.

I don't have personal access to him, but through video and videoconferencing with an occasional trip to Denver, I can effectively learn the elements he's changed.

I don't have to do this; I can do my own thing as I'm qualified and good enough to keep doing what I've done. I'm on my own, but that's ok. Or I can start training this way and potentially grow. I also have a network of individuals and dojos I can gather with periodically to train with and exchange ideas.

Someone who's been at it for a while doesn't have to. But the right teacher and organization can surely make it beneficial to him and his students. None of this has anything to do with business/finances. It has to do with pure MA improvement.

Ok, a fair scenario. In my opinion, if you have a network as you say, with whom you can meet up periodically, why not just do it that way? If you want to use the video as a training aid to supplement the meet-ups, that would make sense. I just really dislike the idea of "learning" it from video, I think it is inherently full of holes and pitfalls.

Or, as you say, why do it at all? You've got what you need to stand on your own very legitimately. You don't need to have an organization over your head. Sure, you can continue to grow through the meet-ups, if that option is there then do it. But ultimately we all need to stand on our own at some point.

I guess I just find it strange and even pointless to follow some videos so that you can slap a new name onto what is essentially something you already do, with perhaps some minor changes here and there. I don't see the benefit in that, but that's just me.

But the issue of how an advanced student/instructor seeks further development for himself is really quite different from a newbie looking to video for his primary venue of instruction. I think this is where the meat of the debate really lies, and that is where my feelings are the strongest. And advanced person, well do what you want, it's non of my business even if I don't recognize much value in some choices that might be made.

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree with this as well.

It may give him a better understanding of what he's doing. Similar to how some of the discussions about other martial art systems have helped me better understand my own. By understanding more how WC operates I now have a better understanding of some of my techniques and why those techniques are done a certain way. I think the only way I have the understanding that I do now is because I'm analytical by nature and I pretty much think about Jow Ga Kung Fu techniques all the time.

Ok, as I've said, ideas can come from anywhere, including video. Did you actually "learn" wing chun from video, or get some familiarity with it by watching some videos? There is a huge difference there.

By watching video of your sifu, you are not learning jow ga from video. You have already learned jow ga. You are using video as a supplement. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Did you actually "learn" wing chun from video, or get some familiarity with it by watching some videos?

I see you point here. I wasn't trying to learn to do Wing Chun. I guess I'll have to see if I can learn a basic WC punch from video and then let the WC guys tell me how far off I am with doing the punch.

Time for an experiment.

 

[Flying Crane]

I see you point here. I wasn't trying to learn to do Wing Chun. I guess I'll have to see if I can learn a basic WC punch from video and then let the WC guys tell me how far off I am with doing the punch.

Time for an experiment.

Or go further with it and see if you can learn the forms of wing chun.

Then post them here in the wing chun forum and see what fireworks fly given the way discussions over there have been going.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Or go further with it and see if you can learn the forms of wing chun

lol so what you are saying is stir the pot lol.

 

[JR 137]

Or go further with it and see if you can learn the forms of wing chun.

Then post them here in the wing chun forum and see what fireworks fly given the way discussions over there have been going.

Not that I'm an advanced student (I trained for almost 7 years, took almost 15 off, then restarted 2 years ago), but maybe I'll try to learn a kata I don't know from another karate system. Not too advanced of a kata, but a common one done in others - maybe Naihanchi. I've got to figure out how to put stuff online and all, but it'll be fun.

Not done as a joke or anything, but an honest attempt. One of these days. Seriously.

 

[Flying Crane]

Not that I'm an advanced student (I trained for almost 7 years, took almost 15 off, then restarted 2 years ago), but maybe I'll try to learn a kata I don't know from another karate system. Not too advanced of a kata, but a common one done in others - maybe Naihanchi. I've got to figure out how to put stuff online and all, but it'll be fun.

Not done as a joke or anything, but an honest attempt. One of these days. Seriously.

Well, Ive tried that with a couple of Kung fu forms. I was able to mimick the movement and memorize the whole thing, that part is easy. But I knew that there are certain subtleties in the movement, specifics about how the body engages while doing the movement, for which I simply had no idea. In the end I had to admit to myself that I was lying to myself and was a fraud, what I was doing was absolutely superficial. I actually felt embarrassed to tell anyone I had done it because I knew it was just mimickry and I was uncomfortable putting myself forth as if I actually knew this stuff. I was a kenpo black belt at the time, so had a reasonably solid, tho different, background.

Learning the choreography and mimicking the movement is easy. Understanding what you are really supposed to be doing with it and how the movement translates into application while utilizing those subtleties, takes a good instructor.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I (and the majority of the BJJ community) am not a fan of video as the primary or only source of training. However I will note that just about every BJJ black belt I know (including myself) has made extensive use of video as a supplementary source of training info.

I'm even aware of some good practitioners who started out training with just video at a time when BJJ was not widely available. (They did seek out in-person instruction when it became available.)

Some relevant factors - BJJ requires training partners, so even those who learn from video have to work with other people. Also, the single biggest source of feedback for improving technique (whether originally learned from a video or a live instructor) is live sparring with training partners. I know good practitioners who don't show up very often for classes with other instructors, but who study video and then come in to test and refine what they've learned by trying it out while rolling with good sparring partners. I'm not saying it's the best approach, but it does seem to work.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I guess I find myself wondering what is the necessity or desire?

Let's say you are already solidly trained in AB style karate. You find some instructional videos of CD style karate, and you find that it is very similar to AB, so you work on it and eventually find an instructor in CD wo is willing to rank you in the new system. So now you have switched over, or at least have added another style to your resume.

Again I find myself with a few questions.

First, since your success in CD was based on your solid training in AB, have you really learned CD, or are you really just still doing AB but they are kind of indistinguishable, with a few minor curriculum differences?

Second, if the two systems are so similar, what is the point in learning something that is virtually identical but goes by a different name? You don't need it, you haven't really added anything to what you do. It becomes padding in a resume.

Third, if you are well enough trained in one system that you can successfully learn another nearly identical system via video training alone, then you don't need to do it. What you already have is solid, and adding something more to it in this fashion is just busy work. It doesn't, in my opinion, add anything to what you were already doing. The very fact that you already have solid enough training that allows you to learn this system via video is the same thing that means you don't have any real need to do so.

Now I agree that ideas and inspirations can come from many sources, including video. But in my opinion, it isn't possible for a beginner to be successful in this manner, and an experienced person who might be successful, based on that prior experience, has no real need to do so.

There are a lot of reasons someone may wish to train (even for rank) in a similar system. Maybe there are some techniques and principles in that similar system that are appealing. Maybe that system has an area of strength where your initial system has some gaps. Maybe the new system is more marketable. Maybe there's a stronger organization in the new style, and you'll be able to get more support and participate in organizational events (competitions, seminars, etc.). Or maybe you're just curious, and enjoy the challenge of picking up this new style, whatever way you can.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Or go further with it and see if you can learn the forms of wing chun.

Then post them here in the wing chun forum and see what fireworks fly given the way discussions over there have been going.

I'd say forms are maybe harder to learn from video. Because I understand many of the principles in BJJ, I can pick up techniques from good instructors' videos pretty readily (better with standing techniques, because we're more similar there). I can try the techniques on students and other folks I know to see if I'm getting them right enough for them to work realistically, and that feedback makes the video more useful. Though I understand the basic principles of Shotokan Karate, I probably would struggle more with learning their kata, because the exact movement is more important and there's no built-in feedback. I won't know if I'm putting tension in the wrong place or holding my weight wrong or that sort of thing, because kata doesn't inherently involve someone knocking me off-balance if I miss a principle.

 

[Flying Crane]

There are a lot of reasons someone may wish to train (even for rank) in a similar system. Maybe there are some techniques and principles in that similar system that are appealing. Maybe that system has an area of strength where your initial system has some gaps. Maybe the new system is more marketable. Maybe there's a stronger organization in the new style, and you'll be able to get more support and participate in organizational events (competitions, seminars, etc.). Or maybe you're just curious, and enjoy the challenge of picking up this new style, whatever way you can.

Those are all perfectly good reasons why someone might want to train into a different system and/or organization. People do it all the time, for reasons that may be good or bad or it depends on ones viewpoint.

I personally will always disagree with video or Internet as anything other than a supplemental tool. If it is not coupled with substantial in-person instruction, then I would always consider the grounding to be suspect. If someone wants to cross over into a different system, then my advice remains: find a good instructor, even if you are already a skilled practitioner of something else. If a high Dan-grade fellow in Tae Kwon Do or shotokan or kenpo or aikido or wing chun (I know, wing chun does not have Dan grades) or BJJ tried to learn my system of Tibetan white crane thru instructional video (so far as I am aware they don't exist), I would still discourage it. I understand the intricacies of the methodology, and I know that it cannot be learned in that way.

Honestly, I would personally never train under someone who got all, or the bulk, of his training by video. I just won't do it. Even if he had solid training first, in something else, and then crossed over via video into something else that he now teaches. Nope, sorry, not interested. I would not trust the instruction.

Now, as I believe I mentioned in a previous post, when it comes down to how an advanced person chooses to pursue additional education and growth for himself, well that is really his own choice and I feel less inclined to be militant about what he does. Video can be a useful tool, tho I would still disagree with trying to learn an actual system that way. But as an advanced practitioner, it's his choice.

I believe the real debate on this issue revolves around a beginner attempting to learn a system of martial arts thru video. I will never support that approach and I will always actively discourage it.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'd say forms are maybe harder to learn from video. Because I understand many of the principles in BJJ, I can pick up techniques from good instructors' videos pretty readily (better with standing techniques, because we're more similar there). I can try the techniques on students and other folks I know to see if I'm getting them right enough for them to work realistically, and that feedback makes the video more useful. Though I understand the basic principles of Shotokan Karate, I probably would struggle more with learning their kata, because the exact movement is more important and there's no built-in feedback. I won't know if I'm putting tension in the wrong place or holding my weight wrong or that sort of thing, because kata doesn't inherently involve someone knocking me off-balance if I miss a principle.

As I've said, are you picking up ideas from BJJ videos (a perfectly good thing to do) or are you trying to learn an entire BJJ system by video? These are vastly different things to do. Video is a great tool to use as a supplement or to broaden your horizons, I think we all pretty much agree on that point. Video is a terrible stand-alone instructor, particularly for a newbie.

Learning the choreography of forms is pretty easy by watching video, but it is again a terrible way to understand a form. As you acknowledge, there are many details and subtleties that can only be taught properly thru hands-on instruction. Video instruction for forms gives you a very superficial mimickry, and little else. But for many martial systems, forms play a big role in the curriculum and as a teaching and training methodology. Video is an extremely poor venue for teaching this stuff, but again video can be a very useful tool to supplement hands-on instruction.