Why?

[Leo89]

What would be the point of online learning (of any martial art really)?

I know when (for me) it comes down to first learning forms that I need someone to help me work out the kinks and help me do smoother, even when it comes to techniques, plus I really haven't met anyone that's ever taught themself.

I don't even know anyone that would learn under a self taught master, would you learn under one?

Not to mention you'd have no one to spar and I'm sure most dojangs would laugh and make you start at the bottom.

Plus who would you have to spar with?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What would be the point of online learning (of any martial art really)?

I know when (for me) it comes down to first learning forms that I need someone to help me work out the kinks and help me do smoother, even when it comes to techniques, plus I really haven't met anyone that's ever taught themself.

I don't even know anyone that would learn under a self taught master, would you learn under one?

Not to mention you'd have no one to spar and I'm sure most dojangs would laugh and make you start at the bottom.

Plus who would you have to spar with?

If you already have a foundation in similar principles, and have a good partner to work with, you can learn something through online material. It will never be as good as having a live instructor, but you can get something out of it if it's well-designed.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

What would be the point of online learning (of any martial art really)?

I know when (for me) it comes down to first learning forms that I need someone to help me work out the kinks and help me do smoother, even when it comes to techniques, plus I really haven't met anyone that's ever taught themself.

I don't even know anyone that would learn under a self taught master, would you learn under one?

Not to mention you'd have no one to spar and I'm sure most dojangs would laugh and make you start at the bottom.

Plus who would you have to spar with?

For the people looking to continue a system they are already in/similar to at a time when they aren't able to actively learn from an instructor. Definitely not ideal, but it has its place.

 

[Flying Crane]

What would be the point of online learning (of any martial art really)?

I know when (for me) it comes down to first learning forms that I need someone to help me work out the kinks and help me do smoother, even when it comes to techniques, plus I really haven't met anyone that's ever taught themself.

I don't even know anyone that would learn under a self taught master, would you learn under one?

Not to mention you'd have no one to spar and I'm sure most dojangs would laugh and make you start at the bottom.

Plus who would you have to spar with?

Some people feel that they ought to be able to learn whatever they want, even when they do not have access to a real instructor. So they look at this as an alternative method.

I always vehemently discourage such an approach.

 

[JR 137]

There was a thread on Kyokushin4lfe forum asking about Ashihara Karate's online program. The head of it spoke about it, and it made sense when he put in his terms (paraphrased)...

It's for people with proficiency in a similar art who don't have a teacher locally. He said the most important parts were having a solid base in a similar style of karate and partners to work with. One online student was a 3rd or 4th dan who ran a dojo. The dojo was no longer affiliated with his organization (a Kyokushin offshoot) because the organization folded. Rather than do his own thing, he started the online instruction and started teaching his students what he learned after he was comfortable enough with it. After some time, the sensei invited the head of the online system to his dojo to evaluate him and his students (they'd been video conferencing up to that point). The online teacher said he had to polish up their technique and some drills, but they were quite good and formally became part of the organization.

Like everything, there's a time and place.

 

[Flying Crane]

There was a thread on Kyokushin4lfe forum asking about Ashihara Karate's online program. The head of it spoke about it, and it made sense when he put in his terms (paraphrased)...

It's for people with proficiency in a similar art who don't have a teacher locally. He said the most important parts were having a solid base in a similar style of karate and partners to work with. One online student was a 3rd or 4th dan who ran a dojo. The dojo was no longer affiliated with his organization (a Kyokushin offshoot) because the organization folded. Rather than do his own thing, he started the online instruction and started teaching his students what he learned after he was comfortable enough with it. After some time, the sensei invited the head of the online system to his dojo to evaluate him and his students (they'd been video conferencing up to that point). The online teacher said he had to polish up their technique and some drills, but they were quite good and formally became part of the organization.

Like everything, there's a time and place.

If someone has a solid base in a similar style, then they don't need the online training.

 

[Touch Of Death]

If someone has a solid base in a similar style, then they don't need the online training.

I disagree. Not pushing my teachers vids, but a black belt could learn a new concept from them. It is just another way of looking at the same old stuff. I agree, a novice would gain very little, unless, of course, they are using them, in tandem, with a live teacher.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If someone has a solid base in a similar style, then they don't need the online training.

If they want to learn that new style, they might.

 

[Flying Crane]

If they want to learn that new style, they might.

Learning a new style in a sub-standard way, because it is "almost" like what he already does?

People can do what they want. In my opinion, that is a waste of time.

 

[Flying Crane]

I disagree. Not pushing my teachers vids, but a black belt could learn a new concept from them. It is just another way of looking at the same old stuff. I agree, a novice would gain very little, unless, of course, they are using them, in tandem, with a live teacher.

I don't think the discussion was so much about learning a new concept or expanding ones vision of what one does. I read it as learning a new style through video.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Learning a new style in a sub-standard way, because it is "almost" like what he already does?

People can do what they want. In my opinion, that is a waste of time.

So, if I want to pick up some new techniques from BJJ, for instance, it's a waste of my time to do so? You see, I've successfully adopted some techniques from BJJ from some fairly simple instructional videos folks posted on YouTube. I peruse things like that to look for improvements to what I already know, and sometimes I find things that I like better than my approach, or which add an option where I have few. If the principles seem similar to what I do, I grab a partner and try it out. If it works, I keep it. If it doesn't, I assume I didn't get the principles right and file it away to ask someone who would know better.

So, explain to me how much I'm wasting my time.

 

[Flying Crane]

So, if I want to pick up some new techniques from BJJ, for instance, it's a waste of my time to do so? You see, I've successfully adopted some techniques from BJJ from some fairly simple instructional videos folks posted on YouTube. I peruse things like that to look for improvements to what I already know, and sometimes I find things that I like better than my approach, or which add an option where I have few. If the principles seem similar to what I do, I grab a partner and try it out. If it works, I keep it. If it doesn't, I assume I didn't get the principles right and file it away to ask someone who would know better.

So, explain to me how much I'm wasting my time.

Are you trying to actually learn a system this way, or just find some useful ideas to add to what you do?

Useful ideas can be found anywhere, yes, including videos.

 

[KangTsai]

(Not the best looking angle for a sample)
A significant part of my striking arsenal is self-taught, which includes the spinning hook kick, my favourite. This is all complementary, of course. I never would have considered trying to learn such thing without starting MMA.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Are you trying to actually learn a system this way, or just find some useful ideas to add to what you do?

Useful ideas can be found anywhere, yes, including videos.

For me, I'm learning parts. I could see someone in one style of Karate using this to learn a new style. I could even see someone in mainline NGA using video to learn the core curriculum of Shojin-ryu (if I had videos - not having videos makes video training so much more difficult ). For someone from mainline NGA, the changes to get to Shojin-ryu aren't extreme, so they could make most of the adaptations off some decent video training. And the reverse would be true, too - one of my students could learn most of the adaptations to mainline via video.

Would they get all the way there? No. But if the styles are similar enough, they could make a lot of progress with well-designed video training. Add in some occasional in-person instruction, and the shift can be completed. Again, it's going to take longer than if they have a live instructor the whole time, but it can be done.

 

[marques]

Perhaps it works for no contact martial arts (?!). Perhaps it can be a start or the only possibility. For example, the first karate students in France started imitating VHS tapes... Then they envited a few masters from Japan... They were challenged by Savate (and other) guys and it worked, apparently. (I think it is still valid for 'new' martial arts. Clearly a few masters learned online. )

Personally, my style is heavily based on feints, timing and precision. So I really need a human being on the other side. And I am thinking in striking. If we think learning grappling online...

But I have been trying many things during normal classes that I found on torrents (before YouTube) and now on YouTube. I put myself in strange situations, but it is fun. One in many things found online worths a try. That's my 'online training'.

 

[JR 137]

Another example of effective non-traditional learning...

My former teacher left his organization while he was a 4th dan. He taught weapons as part of the curriculum but didn't like that aspect too much. There were kata and some basics, but not much else.

When he went on his own, he started looking into different weapons material - kata, drills, sparring, etc. He came across Shihan Mikio Nishiuchi's Okinawan kobudo videos. He pretty much instantly thought that's what we should be doing. Knowing more than enough to learn the basics of it through video, he started practicing it then began teaching us when he was comfortable enough. He then started corresponding with Nishiuchi, and met an instructor a few hours away. Nishiuchi was in California, we're in New York; he didn't have the money nor time to go to Nishiuchi. He spent a few days working out the kinks in his training and teaching of the material. He kept at it with the videos, and meets up with that instructor every year or so. He's earned formal rank in the system, and teaches it as a separate program from his karate curriculum.

I really liked the change. Before, it was a bo kata at a few different ranks, and other weapons such as sai and oar thrown in at different ranks. There was on continuity to it, and not very good application nor depth to anything. Now it's a system in and of itself open to his karate students alongside karate (it's a specific class on a specific nights, and no extra charge), and available to anyone else for tuition cost.

If it wasn't for him learning by video, his students would still be doing sub par stuff.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Another example of effective non-traditional learning...

My former teacher left his organization while he was a 4th dan. He taught weapons as part of the curriculum but didn't like that aspect too much. There were kata and some basics, but not much else.

When he went on his own, he started looking into different weapons material - kata, drills, sparring, etc. He came across Shihan Mikio Nishiuchi's Okinawan kobudo videos. He pretty much instantly thought that's what we should be doing. Knowing more than enough to learn the basics of it through video, he started practicing it then began teaching us when he was comfortable enough. He then started corresponding with Nishiuchi, and met an instructor a few hours away. Nishiuchi was in California, we're in New York; he didn't have the money nor time to go to Nishiuchi. He spent a few days working out the kinks in his training and teaching of the material. He kept at it with the videos, and meets up with that instructor every year or so. He's earned formal rank in the system, and teaches it as a separate program from his karate curriculum.

I really liked the change. Before, it was a bo kata at a few different ranks, and other weapons such as sai and oar thrown in at different ranks. There was on continuity to it, and not very good application nor depth to anything. Now it's a system in and of itself open to his karate students alongside karate (it's a specific class on a specific nights, and no extra charge), and available to anyone else for tuition cost.

If it wasn't for him learning by video, his students would still be doing sub par stuff.

I'm in the midst of a similar process, myself. I haven't found the right material yet to pursue, but am using both video and books (along with what I already know to guide my exploration) to evaluate possible weapons work to study and later bring to my students. I'd be interested in looking at Nishiuchi's videos - I'll have to look into that.

 

[JR 137]

I'm in the midst of a similar process, myself. I haven't found the right material yet to pursue, but am using both video and books (along with what I already know to guide my exploration) to evaluate possible weapons work to study and later bring to my students. I'd be interested in looking at Nishiuchi's videos - I'll have to look into that.

Just poking around Nishiuchi's website, there is a person affiliated with him in Asheville, NC...

International Okinawa Kobudo Association

There used to be some of Nishiuchi's official stuff on YouTube. Check it out, if it piques your interest, perhaps contact that dojo? No idea if you're close to Asheville. It's not like NC is as small as, say, Rhode Island.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just poked my around me Nishiuchi's website, there is a person affiliated with him in Asheville, NC...

International Okinawa Kobudo Association

There used to be some of Nishiuchi's official stuff on YouTube. Check it out, if it piques your interest, perhaps contact that dojo? No idea if you're close to Asheville. It's not like NC is as small as, say, Rhode Island.

NC is a wide state (some parts are 6 hours or more from me). That said, I'm about 25 minutes from Asheville, so that's convenient!

 

[Flying Crane]

For me, I'm learning parts. I could see someone in one style of Karate using this to learn a new style. I could even see someone in mainline NGA using video to learn the core curriculum of Shojin-ryu (if I had videos - not having videos makes video training so much more difficult ). For someone from mainline NGA, the changes to get to Shojin-ryu aren't extreme, so they could make most of the adaptations off some decent video training. And the reverse would be true, too - one of my students could learn most of the adaptations to mainline via video.

Would they get all the way there? No. But if the styles are similar enough, they could make a lot of progress with well-designed video training. Add in some occasional in-person instruction, and the shift can be completed. Again, it's going to take longer than if they have a live instructor the whole time, but it can be done.

I guess I find myself wondering what is the necessity or desire?

Let's say you are already solidly trained in AB style karate. You find some instructional videos of CD style karate, and you find that it is very similar to AB, so you work on it and eventually find an instructor in CD wo is willing to rank you in the new system. So now you have switched over, or at least have added another style to your resume.

Again I find myself with a few questions.

First, since your success in CD was based on your solid training in AB, have you really learned CD, or are you really just still doing AB but they are kind of indistinguishable, with a few minor curriculum differences?

Second, if the two systems are so similar, what is the point in learning something that is virtually identical but goes by a different name? You don't need it, you haven't really added anything to what you do. It becomes padding in a resume.

Third, if you are well enough trained in one system that you can successfully learn another nearly identical system via video training alone, then you don't need to do it. What you already have is solid, and adding something more to it in this fashion is just busy work. It doesn't, in my opinion, add anything to what you were already doing. The very fact that you already have solid enough training that allows you to learn this system via video is the same thing that means you don't have any real need to do so.

Now I agree that ideas and inspirations can come from many sources, including video. But in my opinion, it isn't possible for a beginner to be successful in this manner, and an experienced person who might be successful, based on that prior experience, has no real need to do so.