Why Rank?

[Oily Dragon]

I'm not sure how it's "self-regulation" if kanchos are held accountable to higher yudansha.

Anyhow, do you agree or disagree with Mider when he says that judo and BJJ tend to be regulated as opposed to other martial arts? If you agree with him, then what's the difference between, say, USA Judo and JKA?

All martial arts organizations are self regulated.

That's just a fact.

I think it would be wise of you to stop trying to equate colored belts to any actual licensed, certified, or degreed profession in the modern world. It's absurd.

But this is why we have open competition. There was once a time when any mob of black belts could claim to hold reign. Boy, they learned some lessons.

 

[HighKick]

Like I said, it depends on the person, and the degree.

Comparing your MBA degree to railroad workers, is weird.

Do you really think railroad workers make more money than you? Oil rig workers?

They don't make 6 figures. If they did, everyone would be one.

Eagle Scouts are at least, an accredited accomplishment, unlike black belts. There are records for that sort of thing.

But martial arts credentials are worth very little, when it comes to return on investment. Eagle Scout might win you a job, but not a black belt in anything, on a resume.

I understand what you mean but it's still not regulated like diplomas. Diplomas from high school or college are far more regulated.

Diplomas from accredited schools are nothing like any colored belt. It doesn't matter if they are paper or made of horse hair. You don't get the paper without a proper audit.

But at the same time, "dan" ranks are meaningless in 2023. Nobody cares that you're a 34th degree black belt. They probably don't care that you're a 1st degree either. Dan rankings are not post-secondary degrees. Sorry. Martial arts organizations don't have that kind of leverage. None of them.

They might care if you have an MBA, but they're definitely care more if you have a medical, nursing, engineering, or other professional degree from an accredited institution.

Oil rig workers may well above six figures. Hell, a full time UPS driver just got there pay raised from 140k to 170k. MBA values are very field specific, just like most hourly jobs. Someone in the engineering field will usually make exponentially more than someone with an arts degree. There are always exceptions, but that is definitely the norm.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Oil rig workers may well above six figures. Hell, a full time UPS driver just got there pay raised from 140k to 170k. MBA values are very field specific, just like most hourly jobs. Someone in the engineering field will usually make exponentially more than someone with an arts degree. There are always exceptions, but that is definitely the norm.

Oil rig worker management (rig managers, operations directors), might make 100k+, but those are usually college graduates, not skill labor. Entry level non-degreed is more like 50k, and it's one of the most dangerous jobs in the world being on one of those things. I know at least one chemical engineer with a master's who works on a rig and makes $200k+. You can see in this link, most rig managers require at least a 2 year degree, with some exceptions.

Rig Manager - Saudi Arabia

Rig Manager 04 November, 2023 Rig Manager Saudi Arabia (Residential) Libera are currently looking to engage with experienced Rig Managers who are looking for their next position in the Middle East. Our client is an award-winning drilling contractor in KSA with a mixture of Land & Offshore ...

www.rigzone.com

The recent UPS salary negotiation is a 170k package that includes all benefits, medical, dental, life insurance (this is really expensive for drivers), ADD, etc. It's not 170k in pay. UPS drivers make money depending on their schedule, so top earners (top 1%) might hit 100k if all they do is drive. The average is more like 60k, like $25 an hour. To get more than that requires a lot more than 40 hours a week. So UPS driver take home varies a lot.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Overview/Working-at-UPS-EI_IE3012.11,14.htm

Either way, statistically there is always a salary gap between people with only a high school diploma, some college, and the various degrees, and the best paying jobs in the world almost exclusively require postsecondary education.

https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/pay-salary/average-salary-with-college-degree-vs-without

So yeah, I'll double down, people do care about college degrees. But to stick to topic, I still think comparing belts and martial arts school ranks to accredited degrees and certifications, or military ranks, is apples to oranges. By and large, black belts will not open doors for most people, other than social networking, competition etc, unless they literally open their own school and somehow have to show connection to a larger organization (like BJJ and TKD schools typically do).

But in the case of a fake BJJ school, they can and do open up all the time, and "legit" BJJ schools can't do much about it but complain online.

 

[Hot Lunch]

All martial arts organizations are self regulated.

That's just a fact.

Okay, since you're dismissing everything I throw at you as "self-regulated," what would actual "regulated" martial arts instruction look like, if it were a thing?

I think it would be wise of you to stop trying to equate colored belts to any actual licensed, certified, or degreed profession in the modern world. It's absurd.

You recently said that Eagle Scout is an accredited accomplishment. What does that mean, in terms of being in the same league as what you're mentioning here in a way that martial arts colored belts are not?

But this is why we have open competition. There was once a time when any mob of black belts could claim to hold reign. Boy, they learned some lessons.

So you're suggesting that this is the legitimacy behind the belt?

 

[Steve]

I'm not sure how it's "self-regulation" if kanchos are held accountable to higher yudansha.

Anyhow, do you agree or disagree with Mider when he says that judo and BJJ tend to be regulated as opposed to other martial arts? If you agree with him, then what's the difference between, say, USA Judo and JKA?

If a school sets its own standards, I'd call that being self-regulated. If a school is part of a larger organization that sets consistent standards for all affiliated schools, I'd still call that self-regulation.

The difference between what you're talking about with martial arts, and the accreditation process for colleges and universities has a lot to do with that affiliation piece. When a university or even just a program at a university is accredited, the organization that does the accreditation is completely independent of that institution.

If you're interested in learning more about accreditation, I recommend googling the Council for Higher Education Accreditation.

All that is different from regulation. I mean, it's good to have standards. I agree that Judo and BJJ are more regulated than some other arts. But not because there is a larger governing body like USA Judo or the IBJJF. Rather, it's just simple calibration that occurs as a direct result of all the cross pollination from competition. The schools aren't isolated. The students from all kinds of schools actually intermingle with each other. If you promote too slowly, your students will cream everyone else and your school will quickly get called out for sandbagging. Conversely, if you promote too quickly, your students will not be competitive.

I personally think that in martial arts, competition is the most accessible and reliable way to calibrate standards between otherwise independent schools. But it's not because the IBJJF or USA Judo regulates standards. It's because so many schools compete and get clear feedback.

 

[Hot Lunch]

If a school sets its own standards, I'd call that being self-regulated. If a school is part of a larger organization that sets consistent standards for all affiliated schools, I'd still call that self-regulation.

The difference between what you're talking about with martial arts, and the accreditation process for colleges and universities has a lot to do with that affiliation piece. When a university or even just a program at a university is accredited, the organization that does the accreditation is completely independent of that institution.

If you're interested in learning more about accreditation, I recommend googling the Council for Higher Education Accreditation.

Just a few things. In this whole entire thread, I've only used the word "accreditation" once, and that was me quoting what oily dragon said about Eagle Scouts. I've never misused the word, least of all in a way implying that I didn't know what it meant. I'm thoroughly familiar with that.

When you brought up the fact that there's no accreditation in martial arts, I responded with associations and federations because that's the closest you're going to get to that in martial arts.

Bear in mind the academic institutions are accredited by associations responsible to the US Department of Education, because these schools receive government funding. This reflects the fact that the government has a vested interest in the quality of the education being provided. Our economy depends on it, as well as the the health and safety of the citizens (for example, medical school, etc).

On the other hand, if every martial arts school started teaching no touch knockouts, the rest of the nation outside of the martial arts community wouldn't be affected in a way that would catch the government's attention, if at all.

The other thing we have to ask ourselves is do we want accreditation for martial arts to even be a thing? If it was to become a thing, I'd only want it to the extent martial arts schools can't teach bullshido (no touch knockouts, dim mak, etc), and they'd get to hang a little sign on the window saying that they're compliant with whatever NGO certified them. Anything beyond that, well...

All that is different from regulation. I mean, it's good to have standards. I agree that Judo and BJJ are more regulated than some other arts. But not because there is a larger governing body like USA Judo or the IBJJF. Rather, it's just simple calibration that occurs as a direct result of all the cross pollination from competition. The schools aren't isolated. The students from all kinds of schools actually intermingle with each other. If you promote too slowly, your students will cream everyone else and your school will quickly get called out for sandbagging. Conversely, if you promote too quickly, your students will not be competitive.

I personally think that in martial arts, competition is the most accessible and reliable way to calibrate standards between otherwise independent schools. But it's not because the IBJJF or USA Judo regulates standards. It's because so many schools compete and get clear feedback.

That doesn't account for the hobbyists in those arts. Furthermore, institutions of higher learning aren't engaging in any game show style academic competitions. Well, maybe there's some small things that I'm not aware of - but in that case, it certainly can be said that the majority of the student body wouldn't be participating.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Okay, since you're dismissing everything I throw at you as "self-regulated," what would actual "regulated" martial arts instruction look like, if it were a thing?

How about mandatory child sex predator training? The Scouts are required to have everyone take it regularly. You won't find the same level of safety regulation in any martial arts school unless it is self chosen.

You recently said that Eagle Scout is an accredited accomplishment. What does that mean, in terms of being in the same league as what you're mentioning here in a way that martial arts colored belts are not?

Eagle scouts to have multiple people record their work across something like 20 disciplines. It has to be audited by higher levels of organization, and in a lot of cases requires interaction with agencies outside of the Scouts, ie the Scout themselves needs to go do things and have third parties attest (getting the mayor's autograph, etc). So it's practically unheard of for someone to "fake" Eagle Scout. I still think it's on another tier beyond martial arts rankings and belts, simply because those are less formal and not internationally recognized the way Eagle Scout or a post-secondary degree is.

The Scouts in 2023 are pretty heavily regulated, because of their involvement in the community not to mention kids. Academic schools need to maintain standards or they lose accreditation and they become meaningless.

I don't think martial arts schools have either of these issues, which is why abuse and quality control issues are common. And I don't know if the various "federations" and other organizational martial arts groups are that trustworthy....some of the stuff they put out is pretty bonkers.

So you're suggesting that this is the legitimacy behind the belt?

What I mean is that in the past, a black belt or a martial arts school rank meant a lot more than it does today. Today it's more like a participation trophy. That's not to say someone who put a lot of effort into getting a black belt isn't great at their art, or wasted their time. I have nothing against any of the belted arts.

What I mean is that in the long run, martial arts are not going to live or die by the belts, but by combat.

 

[Steve]

Just a few things. In this whole entire thread, I've only used the word "accreditation" once, and that was me quoting what oily dragon said about Eagle Scouts. I've never misused the word, least of all in a way implying that I didn't know what it meant. I'm thoroughly familiar with that.

When you brought up the fact that there's no accreditation in martial arts, I responded with associations and federations because that's the closest you're going to get to that in martial arts.

it seemed like you were suggesting that a self regulated organization was not self regulated, and that it was similar to accreditation of a university. They aren’t the same. If we agree, great.

Bear in mind the academic institutions are accredited by associations responsible to the US Department of Education, because these schools receive government funding. This reflects the fact that the government has a vested interest in the quality of the education being provided. Our economy depends on it, as well as the the health and safety of the citizens (for example, medical school, etc).

Okay. And the dept of education is not affiliated with the schools. It is independent of them. That is central to the point I was making. I honestly can’t tell if we agree on this or not. But if so, great.

On the other hand, if every martial arts school started teaching no touch knockouts, the rest of the nation outside of the martial arts community wouldn't be affected in a way that would catch the government's attention, if at all.

That the dept of education is a federal agency is a little beside the point. Isn’t it?

The other thing we have to ask ourselves is do we want accreditation for martial arts to even be a thing? If it was to become a thing, I'd only want it to the extent martial arts schools can't teach bullshido (no touch knockouts, dim mak, etc), and they'd get to hang a little sign on the window saying that they're compliant with whatever NGO certified them. Anything beyond that, well...

I don’t think we need it. As I said, competition, where it exists in an art, does a fine job of calibrating the standards. In my opinion.

That doesn't account for the hobbyists in those arts. Furthermore, institutions of higher learning aren't engaging in any game show style academic competitions. Well, maybe there's some small things that I'm not aware of - but in that case, it certainly can be said that the majority of the student body wouldn't be participating.

Sure it does, provided that the hobbyists compete and/or train with people who compete.

Colleges compete through reputation. High standards of admission, a reputation for distinguished graduates, and rigorous accreditation. For example, Because there isn’t a battle royale type thing to determine which university has the best chemistry phds, they compete through excellence in the field. The university’s reputation is associated with every graduate, and they will certainly take some credit for each one’s accomplishments.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Sorry can't help it. Airplane!...Girl Scout bar fight.

 

[Steve]

Okay, since you're dismissing everything I throw at you as "self-regulated," what would actual "regulated" martial arts instruction look like, if it were a thing?

I'll take a stab at this. If there were an independent organization, private or governmental, that independently created a review criteria for what a self defense program must include in order to be accredited. If this independent organization then reviewed and certified "self defense" courses, verifying they meet this criteria... that would be independently regulated.

To be clear, what that looks like, and whether it's a good idea... heck, whether it's even a practical idea, is beside the point. The key here is that schools or organizations make some kind of claim, and someone unaffiliated with the school independently verifies the claim and then provides some sort of certification.

You recently said that Eagle Scout is an accredited accomplishment. What does that mean, in terms of being in the same league as what you're mentioning here in a way that martial arts colored belts are not?

So you're suggesting that this is the legitimacy behind the belt?

You're not talking to me specifically, but just so I'm clear, I think belts are perfectly legitimate within a very small community in which they're earned. But it's like if you work for McDonalds and you take the training for cooking a Big Mac. That is required training and you have to be certified... but that literally only matters within the McDonald's organization. Literally no one who doesn't work for McD's will care that you took that training. That's what belts and certifications are in most martial arts schools where there is no competition. And for some people, that's just fine.

But where there is competition, and where the standards are very consistent, like in BJJ, the belts can be meaningful outside of the community. And by meaningful, I don't mean important necessarily. I just mean, they are predictable. If you are a BJJ black belt (heck, even a purple or brown belt) and you go into a Judo school, they're going to have a pretty good idea what your skill level is. If you are in a random discussion with random people, and the only thing they know about you is that you are a BJJ black belt, there is some well established calibration. Individual skill levels do vary, but within a pretty reliable band of skill at each level.

And this is true in pretty much every martial art where there is competition. The more varied and diverse the competition rulesets are, the more reliable and well respected the ranks are outside of the community.

 

[Hot Lunch]

it seemed like you were suggesting that a self regulated organization was not self regulated, and that it was similar to accreditation of a university. They aren’t the same. If we agree, great.

I figured it was worth mentioning. Here's something I hope we can all agree on: if you're going to call an association or federation "self-regulated," it is NOT the same an independent martial arts school doing its own thing.

Once again, if I had signed up at the independent judo dojo, anything I earn there would be worthless the second I step out of the front door with it. However, with the USJA dojo that I'm signed up with, everything I earned there will be recognized not only by other USJA dojos, but by all dojos belonging to an IJF member association.

Same thing in Shotokan. I can take whatever I've earned in my ISKF affiliated dojo to any other ISKF affiliated dojo, OR any JKA/WF or SKIF dojo, and it will be recognized there.

And so, while I never used the word "accredited," this is why I'm saying it's the closest thing. Arguably, the most important feature of accreditation in higher education in the first place is the ability to transfer credits between universities. This is the similarity I'm referring to.

Okay. And the dept of education is not affiliated with the schools. It is independent of them. That is central to the point I was making. I honestly can’t tell if we agree on this or not. But if so, great.


That the dept of education is a federal agency is a little beside the point. Isn’t it?

There was a point I was trying to make with this. That point being that martial arts schools will never be accredited, so the "self-regulation" (at echelons above the individual dojo level) will have to make do, and not be dismissed as having no meaning.

I don’t think we need it. As I said, competition, where it exists in an art, does a fine job of calibrating the standards. In my opinion.

Sure it does, provided that the hobbyists compete and/or train with people who compete.

With the same people they see every other day, and not complete strangers who are less predictable?

Colleges compete through reputation. High standards of admission, a reputation for distinguished graduates, and rigorous accreditation. For example, Because there isn’t a battle royale type thing to determine which university has the best chemistry phds, they compete through excellence in the field. The university’s reputation is associated with every graduate, and they will certainly take some credit for each one’s accomplishments.

Can't the same be said of martial arts schools that don't consider their arts to be sports?

 

[Steve]

Can't the same be said of martial arts schools that don't consider their arts to be sports?

Possibly. Can you think of an example of what you're suggesting?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Possibly. Can you think of an example of what you're suggesting?

Not the guy you're responding to, but I can. Tai chi. They have push hands, but ultimately, there are a few different 'families' that have very high reputations, and not due to their push hands competitions. They'll also take credit for their disciples spreading it around (as long as they do it in the good graces of the head honchos)

 

[mograph]

A buddy of mine teaches grade-school music. He came up with the idea of grading the students on recorder (like a flute) like martial arts: you learn a piece, you ask to be tested on it, and if you pass, you get a coloured wristband. The kids are all over it, all practising their piece at recess (it's quite annoying, apparently -- have you ever heard 20+ student recorders at once?) then begging to be tested. They loves them some coloured wristbands.

What's behind it? Identification ("I am a black belt"), social status, but also an objective (in the local context, at least) measure of their skills, maybe.

Belts don't suit my mindset, but hey. To each their own. As long as people are humble about their belts, and don't necessarily expect that their rank will translate into another school, everything's cool.

 

[Steve]

Not the guy you're responding to, but I can. Tai chi. They have push hands, but ultimately, there are a few different 'families' that have very high reputations, and not due to their push hands competitions. They'll also take credit for their disciples spreading it around (as long as they do it in the good graces of the head honchos)

High standards of admission, a reputation for distinguished graduates, and rigorous accreditation?

For what it's worth, I think Tai Chi has cultivated a strong reputation that transcends the internal regulation, but it is in the area of health and wellness, and in particular for senior citizens... so not as much for martial arts. @Xue Sheng has commented on the increasingly rare, martial element in tai chi.

Beyond that, I don't know enough about tai chi to do more than take your word for it.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

High standards of admission, a reputation for distinguished graduates, and rigorous accreditation?

For what it's worth, I think Tai Chi has cultivated a strong reputation that transcends the internal regulation, but it is in the area of health and wellness, and in particular for senior citizens... so not as much for martial arts. @Xue Sheng has commented on the increasingly rare, martial element in tai chi.

Beyond that, I don't know enough about tai chi to do more than take your word for it.

I was referring mostly to the internal accreditation. Though would not be surprised if the Chen family, for instance, has special standards to work with them specifically. @Xue Sheng could probably answer that, though sadly he's taking a break from the site for a bit.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

I think in Martial arts in order to get your Rank you have to pay to get your black belt and your certificate and that not earn if you earn it its for free like if i tested for my black ill pay 2 hundred 50 bucks for my black and my certificate

 

[CharlieYankee]

Belts for most places are about making $$ with testing. Pass those little kiddies up fast and get the cash before they quit. Unfortunately, that is part of maintaining a business. Not everyone can afford to be picky. My kung fu sifu always said why do you want a belt? To hold your pants up? Either you know or you don't. Personally, I don't care either way. In my current class when I test for rank I am always a standout. But even those that look bad, don't know the katas or cant physically perform moves still get the belt and passed up the ranks. So I decided to stop worrying about them and just focus on what I know.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Belts for most places are about making $$ with testing. Pass those little kiddies up fast and get the cash before they quit. Unfortunately, that is part of maintaining a business. Not everyone can afford to be picky. My kung fu sifu always said why do you want a belt? To hold your pants up? Either you know or you don't. Personally, I don't care either way. In my current class when I test for rank I am always a standout. But even those that look bad, don't know the katas or cant physically perform moves still get the belt and passed up the ranks. So I decided to stop worrying about them and just focus on what I know.

Why was this conversation even being had in kung fu in the first place?

 

[CharlieYankee]

Someone new always asks that question.