Why Rank?

[paihequan]

As a reasonably newcomer to MT, I have noticed that several threads ultimately end up in discussions (often heated) reagrding people's rank, who they may have studied with or the title they may use.

Why is this aspect of the martial arts so important?

Rank and title is but a small part of the martial arts yet is given to the most discussion. Why is this. Surely the arts themselves are more important than the belts around the waists of those who practice them? Perhaps it's time for more discussion about the arts and not the personalities inviolved within?

 

[arnisador]

As per this post, further beatings of the dead horses of credentials and frauds will result in suspensions.

I am not implying that paihequan's post is of that nature but threads like this have consistently led to credential/fraud/etc. issues and we will not tolerate further disruptive posts in that vein.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The rank issue IMO comes from 2 areas.

1 is the desire to keep score

2 is the desire to have titles.

In the past, there were earls and dukes and princes. Now, we annoint with dan ranks. Some liken rank to educational degrees. The differences however that exist in the systems makes the 'royalty' comparison better, I think.

Many times, rank is awarded not for martial skill, but based on political, financial and personal reasons. One does not goto school for 4 years and automatically get a degree, diploma or award, yet in the martial arts world many organizations will bump you every so many years, provided your dues are up to date. Sadly, just as there are 'diploma mills' that will print anything for anyone for a buck, there are 'rank mills' that do the same.

The reality is that all the rank, all the stripes on your belt mean jack if you can't do 'it' when it counts. I think there are only 3 ranks that count. Student, teacher and teachers teacher. Beyond that, its mostly marketing, and score keeping.

My opinion.
:asian:

 

[arnisador]

I largely agree with Kaith--esp. that there's little need for rank beyond student (possibly beg./adv.), instructor, and head of system.

I will say that while I think marketing is the big issue, and that the influx of children into the arts is what drives that, that some instructors do use it to recall who knows what amongst underbelts in their large classes. So I think a related question is, How many students is too many? Should an instructor be expected to know off the top of his/her head where each student is at in their training?

 

[John Bishop]

These questions always seem to be asked by people who either don't have any rank, or have questionable rank.
I never see someone saying it's perfectly fine to have a teacher, lawyer, doctor, etc., who is skilled, but not credentialed. You can't even teach 5 year olds in kindergarden without proper training and credentialing.
But yet some people are always quick to sell the martial arts short and place it on a much lower level. They say things like, "don't worry about paper, it's just for those with big ego's".
The martial arts has always had traditions, requirements, and customs. But yet, people want to bypass requirements, take shortcuts, and still be considered "legitmate".
And then there are people who jump from organization to organization to get their promotions. Or the ones who are promoted by people they have never even met, let alone spent time on the mat with.
To just say that rank is meaningless because some idiots and frauds have bought theirs or self promoted, is very insulting to the men who have spent decades earning theirs.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by John Bishop
To just say that rank is meaningless because some idiots and frauds have bought theirs or self promoted, is very insulting to the men who have spent decades earning theirs.

I agree. I dont think rank as a whole is meaningless. I do however think that the fixation on it has caused a major devaluation of it. On the surface, you would think a 4th dan is a 4th dan is a 4th dan. The truth is, with a gazillion different grading systems, and requirements, etc, plus all the 'paper tigers', its all different. To the average person, a doctorate is a doctorate. But, Harvard is a better school than the local community college. Both are better than the mailorder mill, and how does the 'honorary doctorate' fit in? Too often, someone just 'knights' someone (or themselves) and the guy thats spent 20-40 years busting his *** is suddenly out'ranked' by some total git.

Now, 'mom' sees you have a 3rd, but he has an 8th. Gee 8 is better than 3, so 'Tommy' goes to the papertigers mcdojo and 4 years later (when he's a 3rd) gets his head handed to him by some streetpunk.

We can discuss setting some standards, but the truth is, the best lobbiests and most $ will set the standards, which is great if you do TKD, or Karate, but what if you do Muay Thai or Escrido? Is a board made up of TKD, Karate and Tai Chi really qualified to know if the JKD instructors legit, or just a hack? Also, the addes expence of organizing such a board, traveling to stand before them and such, would IMO do more damage to the startups who cant afford more than a small spare part of their yard or house as a school. Only those with $$ will be able to start a school then.

Theres no 'easy' answer.

The truth is, anyone can buy a belt and print a cert and drop some names. The average person has no clue whats on the cert. or whats really behind it. Sadly, they also don't know whats behind a doctorate either.

 

[paihequan]

Thanks to all for sharing your views. Sadly in today's martial arts, rank is a marketing tool and one used to great effect by those who often proclaim that they are above such things.

The real value of rank is in qualifying the relationship that exists between an individual student and their teacher.

It seems so sad to me that rank often is made an issue rather than looking at the total person.

 

[Shinzu]

if training is your goal and you obtain rank, then good for you. if you train just to obtain rank then you have no idea what the martial arts is all about.

 

[twinkletoes]

Originally posted by Shinzu
if training is your goal and you obtain rank, then good for you. if you train just to obtain rank then you have no idea what the martial arts is all about.

That is an excellent summation.

Rank is best used as a guide to keep competition fairly even. That is why the colored belt system was adopted. It was a creation of Jigoro Kano, founder of Judo.

The actual idea of "ranks" came about just before that, and was a hot topic among the karate instructors of Japan. I've heard that many of them argued over whether or not they would ever give a rank to a student.

Rank's best purpose is to separate competitors. Beyond that it is over-used by many. I think it has value 1) as a means of goal setting and 2) as a means of quality control.

For goal setting, as Shinzu said so well, the skill should be the goal, not the rank.

For quality control, it is worthwhile if everyone participates. As others have said, once a rank is not equivalent to equal rank somewhere else, this purpose is gone.

~TT

"Let's throw the belts in the river and just train." ~Brian, friend and instructor of mine.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by John Bishop
These questions always seem to be asked by people who either don't have any rank, or have questionable rank.
I never see someone saying it's perfectly fine to have a teacher, lawyer, doctor, etc., who is skilled, but not credentialed. You can't even teach 5 year olds in kindergarden without proper training and credentialing.
But yet some people are always quick to sell the martial arts short and place it on a much lower level. They say things like, "don't worry about paper, it's just for those with big ego's".
The martial arts has always had traditions, requirements, and customs. But yet, people want to bypass requirements, take shortcuts, and still be considered "legitmate".
And then there are people who jump from organization to organization to get their promotions. Or the ones who are promoted by people they have never even met, let alone spent time on the mat with.
To just say that rank is meaningless because some idiots and frauds have bought theirs or self promoted, is very insulting to the men who have spent decades earning theirs.

First my former Sifu does not certify, so I would think that there may be reasons for jumping organizations. Whether he would of certified me is a another discussion. Anyone can ask him if they choose to.
http://www.geocities.com/Tao_Of_Gung_Fu/The_Nucleus_Of_Gung_Fu.html

Second Sijo Emperado was certified up to %th Dan by his Sifu William Chow BUT his 10th Dan came from an OUTSIDE organization, a Chinese Athletic Association. This information I received from you!

So did Sijo TRAIN to earn his 10th Dan? And considering he Promoted Ed Parker to 8th Dan. What affect does this have on all the high ranking Kenpo and Kajukenbo MA'ists out there?






:asian:

 

[wakinaguri]

You are right. The ranking is getting too watered down. You will see a lot of self ranking going on out there. They see another person who had studied with their instructor and they say he is a 5th degree black belt. Well I studied with my instructor longer than he did, I am at least a 6th degree black belt and they promote themselves. This happens a lot after the instructor is dead.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Ranking is BIG money these days. Many schools make their bank acounts lage by chaing vast amounts of money or testing and ranking. Some organizations demand a portion of testing fees go to the Home country. So rank has a monatary value to some.
To others it is a guide as to how well they have learned and how close they are to their goals. Some must test every time they gain another rank Some are handed their rank for political reasons, some are ranked simply to give an inner structure to the organization and to show where the knowledge is (to outsiders).
The rank on the door, in the phone book, on a web site, may attract students. The quality of instruction Keeps students. I agree with those that say that rank sometimes has nothing to do with knowledge.
Beginner/ student, disciple, instructor/head instructor between these given stations are many years of practice and oh so much knowledge
I prefer to be a student (always learning) My instructor says Im a disciple and instructor (his choice and I follow what he says) In my mind I'll always be a student

 

[A.R.K.]

These questions always seem to be asked by people who either don't have any rank, or have questionable rank.

John, with respect I disagree. I see people who have 'rank' that is 'valid' that question the direction it has taken in the MA world. No one wears their belt outside of the school, at least I hope they don't . I isn't worn in a real fight. And the attacker isn't going to ask you about it ahead of time either.

Kaith mentioned

On the surface, you would think a 4th dan is a 4th dan is a 4th dan. The truth is, with a gazillion different grading systems, and requirements,

I have talked about this before. Even in the same discipline there will be differences many times. A belt color or Dan degree doesn't mean anything. Let me repeat this...neither means anything as far as ability or skill. Time in and money paid yes. There are white belts that can beat the snot out of 5th Dans. In fact lets be honest, there are NO belts that can beat the snot out of BB's.

It is the heart and the skill that are of value not the paper and certainly not what is around the waist.

The martial arts has always had traditions, requirements, and customs

No, not originally. They were a means to an end. All the fluff was added later and is totally uneeded in training for it's intented purpose.

Credentials are fine and in today's society often needed. But a MA cert, even from the most 'reputable' organization is not even close in terms of importance with other items such as a medical or legal degree. It is only meaningfull in a very small segment of society that are familar with such things. In other words, a X Dan registered with the YYY federation isn't going to get you a job anywhere, except MAYBE at a school belonging to the same group.

And then there are people who jump from organization to organization to get their promotions.

Nothing new there John. It permeates the industry. Lets be honest again, it is all a game for grown ups. We don't NEED any organization in order to train hard and protect ourselves. Look at all the people who protected themselves BEFORE those organizations ever existed. Look at all the instructors who successfully taught before there where any organizations to say they were 'legitimate'. There were some bad apples then, there are some now..that's life.

To just say that rank is meaningless because some idiots and frauds have bought theirs or self promoted, is very insulting to the men who have spent decades earning theirs.

Depends on what you mean by 'earn'. It is my personal opinion that even if you have faithfully trained hard for years and decades and excelled in every aspect....you haven't earned anything if you are untested in a real life altercation. That may sound harsh, but once again, lets look at the bottom line. MA is to defend yourself. No fluff, no feathers, no esoteric pholosophy. It is to hurt someone so you don't get hurt. If you've never actually used it to protect yourself [not you personally, it is a general comment] then how have you 'earned' anything other than a piece of cloth and something to put on your wall?

A man that goes to Harvard and gets a law degree but goes out and sells cars instead....is not a lawyer. A man that graduates form med school and completes internship who then goes into real estate....isn't a doctor. A man who trains for X years and 'earns' a 5th Dan in style X but has never ever been in a real fight and used what he has learned, or even found out if what he has learned works......

My humble opinion is that if you wear the belt and hang up the wall candy...that is wear your heart is. If you train just to train in case you need to use it one day [as well as the other benefits] and the belt and the wall candy and the other hoopla really doesn't matter...then you truly have understood what it's all about.

Just some thoughts.

:asian:

 

[Disco]

As pointed out, rank originated elsewhere (Japan). Modern day students (since ranking originated), have been conditioned mentally that this is the accepted norm.

When we see our teachers, master instructors and grand masters jockey for positions or even create positions, what else are we to think. This is the accepted protocol. We are products of our environment. As also pointed out, credentials are a must in todays society. How do you get these credentials? Hopefully you train and belong to an honest and fair school and parent organization. (Now I'm only addressing people that do train. Anybody with a computer can create anything they desire. Can't stop or regulate them. Their not honorable, but that seems to be the choosen path for many). Back to subject. Now what happens, if you do in fact train and find that what / who you are associated with has put limits (for whatever reasons) on your advancement.
As a society, we dictate that you must show us proof of education. Walk into any dojo/dojang and the first thing that most people look for is what's on the wall. That's the way the general public has been conditioned. So for those who wish to teach and expand their choosen style, rank / certification is a mandate fostered by the guidelines society has laid down. Now you can use any terminology you choose; Dan, Sash, 1st/2nd Level, Instructor/Senior Instructor, etc. They all denote some sort of ranking. It's world wide, but as said above, it's been handed down to us. With this as a concluded fact, we are forced to a great extent to follow or get left behind. I'll use this example: Two schools open up within short distance of each other. One is operated by a 2nd Dan. The other a 5th Dan. Both teach the same style. Now think like the general untrained public. Which school would you most likely go to. With not enough students to stay open, the 2nd Dan will more than likely close up. Now the 5th Dan has it locked up all because of rank.

Point being, Rank is a necessary evil. It's been force generated upon us and it's not going to go away. Accept or reject, it's the individuals choice.

Just my opinion................... :asian:

 

[twinkletoes]

Originally posted by Disco
Point being, Rank is a necessary evil. It's been force generated upon us and it's not going to go away. Accept or reject, it's the individuals choice.

Disco,

I like what you've written. I agree a lot. The only thing I think is no longer true is that it is a necessary evil. Look at the straight blast gym and their efforts to teach without rank, ritual, or title. The only use of rank in their entire organization is for BJJ competition, and that is begrudgingly adopted. Also, with the rise of MMA and other performance-oriented training methods, instead of the old image-driven paradigm, I think people will start caring a lot less about the belts if we show them it's not necessary.

Best,

~TT

 

[John Bishop]

Martial arts styles, systems, and methods have grown tremendously over the last century. In the beginning there was no need for ranks because a style or school consisted of a teacher and 5-6 students he trained in his back yard.
Now days several systems consist of hundreds of thousands, or even millions of members. So how do you have a organization this large without some type of hiearchy, organizational chain of command, system of progression, or leadership?

I guess the big question here is what do you consider a martial art? In the old days we considered a martial art a system that taught self defense techniques while teaching the individual how to improve his "body, mind, and spirit".
No one ever said you're not a martial artist unless you've been in a street fight. In fact you were taught to avoid fighting if at all possible.
No one said that your belt was only earned because of your fighting ability. I have been a police officer for 31 years, and have had to use my martial arts training too many times to remember, but I would never consider that something that makes me a better martial artist or more qualified for rank than someone else. It gives me some insights that not everybody may have, but it has nothing to do with what rank I deserve or my position in my system.

I can see it now, we take the 25 year old black belts, have them challenge the 70 year old 9th degrees who have been in the arts over 50 years. If they can't beat the 25 year olds, they don't deserve to wear the 9th degree rank.

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by paihequan
As a reasonably newcomer to MT, I have noticed that several threads ultimately end up in discussions (often heated) reagrding people's rank, who they may have studied with or the title they may use.

Why is this aspect of the martial arts so important?

Rank and title is but a small part of the martial arts yet is given to the most discussion. Why is this. Surely the arts themselves are more important than the belts around the waists of those who practice them? Perhaps it's time for more discussion about the arts and not the personalities inviolved within?

My opinion,

In my time in the arts I have seen many frauds or paper champions as I like to call them, these people claim to be somthing they are not and then they try to sell these lies to the public. Sooner or later they all get caught and it puts distrust of the martial arts into the public, they dont know who they can trust and the entire martial arts world takes the hit while the paper champions laugh all the way to the bank. So its no wonder that real martial artists across the globe are trying to catch and expose the paper champions in a attempt to restore the arts image to the public. I agree with those who try to expose the truth, but there is a time and place and most lies always get exposed, thats called irony. I dont dwell on rank but beleive it is important to have promotion levels in the arts that way you can set goals and have a more even match up at tournaments ect.
:asian:

 

[paihequan]

Twinkletoes wrote:

"I think people will start caring a lot less about the belts if we show them it's not necessary."

Perfect. I could not agree more! :asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

This has been an excellent thread with very interesting views expressed by everyone. Gives us much to think about. My hats off to everyone who is participating.

:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by John Bishop
Martial arts styles, systems, and methods have grown tremendously over the last century. In the beginning there was no need for ranks because a style or school consisted of a teacher and 5-6 students he trained in his back yard.
Now days several systems consist of hundreds of thousands, or even millions of members. So how do you have a organization this large without some type of hiearchy, organizational chain of command, system of progression, or leadership?

I guess the big question here is what do you consider a martial art? In the old days we considered a martial art a system that taught self defense techniques while teaching the individual how to improve his "body, mind, and spirit".
No one ever said you're not a martial artist unless you've been in a street fight. In fact you were taught to avoid fighting if at all possible.
No one said that your belt was only earned because of your fighting ability. I have been a police officer for 31 years, and have had to use my martial arts training too many times to remember, but I would never consider that something that makes me a better martial artist or more qualified for rank than someone else. It gives me some insights that not everybody may have, but it has nothing to do with what rank I deserve or my position in my system.

I can see it now, we take the 25 year old black belts, have them challenge the 70 year old 9th degrees who have been in the arts over 50 years. If they can't beat the 25 year olds, they don't deserve to wear the 9th degree rank.

John, I like your ability to sit back and analyze and for the most part "stay positive!"

I re-read my post and it was a little"harsher" than meant to be. A short version of my point was that we have 1, 2 & 3 year blackbelts coming up and they couldn't put their hands on me in their wildest dreams (for the most part). And today we have 3rd and 4th Dans that only trained in one system and think they can't be beat. And they too would be "very troubled" trying to figure me out as a fighter.

I've trained longer than most before receiving Instructorship and without joining outside organizations would still be teaching illegitimately!

:asian: