Why is it so many people consider Okinawan arts as CMA?

[7starmantis]

I have a question that is sure to raise some tempers, but I'm just curious.
Why is it so many people consider Okinawan arts as CMA?
I'm not trying to offend, I'm just curious. I know that some say there system is heavily influenced by CMA, but isn't that ignoring thier own background?

7sm

 

[arnisador]

I've split this off from the "CMA Studied" thread.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[arnisador]

I don't consider Okinawan Karate to be CMA, though some styles are so minimally changed that that would not be unreasonable (e.g., Pangainoon-->Uechi-Ryu). I do think that Okinawan Karate is principally modified Kung Fu, plus native Ryukyuan techniques and training ideas.

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1521
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1603

 

[7starmantis]

It seems that people would get upset about classifying them as CMA because they would feel as if they are ignoring their culture or past. Is this not the case?

Do Okinawan arts use japanese terms or chinese? Such as Sifu, or Sensei ?

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by arnisador
See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1521
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1603

I don't know, I don't see that many similarities at all. I can see just a few techniques and tell which is kung fu and which is karate. I'm not trying to be close minded, I'm just curious.

7sm

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Do Okinawan arts use japanese terms or chinese?

They use Japanese terms nowadays, but of course Okinawa is now part of Japan. The Okinawans think their language is separate from Japanese but the Japanese and most linguists (as I understand the matter) say it's just a dialect. (There's more on all this in the JMA-General and Karate fora.) There's no doubt that it's now considered a Japanese art, but that's somewhat like saying a luau or the hula dance is American, not Hawaiin.

To really see the similarities, look at an art like Five Ancestor Fist. For example, if you look at this book on Kung Fu, I think you'll see Karate leaping off the page at you. Their sam chien kata is clearly the Okinawan sanchin kata, to take just one instance.

You really need to compare Okinawan Karate to Southern Chinese systems from the regions they traded with to see the connection. Uechi-ryu is a good style to consider--you can easily see the animal techniques. But if you look at the Okinawan kata you can very often find Chinese forms that they are clearly variants of, and there are records of Chinese ambassadors and immigrants teaching their martial arts in Okinawa.

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5010

 

[7starmantis]

I guess I'm getting caught up in semantics. I get what your saying about the hula dance being american and not Hawaiin, but would that justify classifying the arts of okinawa as Okinawan arts and not Japanese or Chinese?
I guess its greatest infuence was Chinese, but Kung Fu is heavily influenced by Taiji, but then they are both CMA.

Interesting....

7sm

 

[paihequan]

Depending on who one studied with, some Uchinan-Chu (Okinawans) believe their art to have strong Chinese Martial Arts origins and actively pursue this link.

 

[arnisador]

See also:
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22640

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by arnisador
See also:
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22640

That was very interesting.

7sm

 

[Eyedoc]

I am a convert from Okinawan Kenpo to Sil Lum Gung Fu. I can tell you that it is a huge change. In fact, my Sifu asked me to stop Karate-ing up his smooth Chinese forms. I guess the reason they might be compared is simply the common root (Bodhidarhma), but that is about the only thing they have in common.

 

[Matt Stone]

What is kung fu? How is it that taiji has "influenced" kung fu?

Kung fu is a term, and I think 7* knows that. Not sure how he is using that term, however.

Kung fu, as a term, is a really, really, really big circle. Within that circle are smaller circles (different styles), some of which overlap. Since taiji is kung fu, it is one of those smaller circles within the larger kung fu circle, and so could not influence it without influencing each and every other circle contained within that larger kung fu circle...

Okinawan MA are originally southern CMA, and as Arnisador pointed out, indiginous Ryukyuan techniques were melded with that information. I was always told that prior to the occupation of Okinawa by the Satsuma samurai, Okinawan karate differed little from its original Chinese forms. After the occupation (and subsequent disarmament of the Okinawans), the Okinawans stiffened up the forms so they wouldn't be practicing the newly outlawed Chinese arts... Not sure if that's true, but it'd be a convenient explanation of the staccato techniques instead of the smoothly flowing Chinese forms.

Take it for what its worth.

 

[7starmantis]

What is kung fu? How is it that taiji has "influenced" kung fu?

Kung fu is a term, and I think 7* knows that. Not sure how he is using that term, however.

Kung fu, as a term, is a really, really, really big circle. Within that circle are smaller circles (different styles), some of which overlap. Since taiji is kung fu, it is one of those smaller circles within the larger kung fu circle, and so could not influence it without influencing each and every other circle contained within that larger kung fu circle...

We've addressed this topic before, but I'll try and explain it again.
Kung Fu is a term, your correct. I think its counter productive to sit and argue that this term truly means simply CMA when it isn't used that way in our society. Its the same as the words "cool" or "tight" or "bad". You ever hear people using those words in sentances to describe something that is "tight" but not neccessarily "so close in structure as to prevent passage or escape" ? Kung Fu is used now as a term to describe certain CMA, is taiji truly kung fu? Yes, is the term taji and kung fu used today interchangably? No.
That is why I used the words I did. I don't think using "kung fu" interchangably with "CMA" is going to be the best way of communicating your thoughts and ideas, so I choose to use terms that everyone would understand.

As for taiji influencing every CMA I can agree with that. The fighting principles of taiji are used in many, many different CMA "styles". If you want to get technical according to most historians, taiji was created way before any of the other CMA "styles". That is how it has "influenced" the other CMA "styles".

 

[Josephk]

i do okinawan goju ryu, which is a later version of the okinawan systems, but still it has a lot of chinese influence in it compared to the mainland japan styles like shotokan (which i also study) lots more open hand techniques are in goju ryu, and my sensei tells me , like someone else has already said, that the sanchin kata, is an altered version of a chinese one. Personally i would say that although okinawan systems are similar to chinese ones in a lot of ways, i think they are different enough in mentality and training to be called okinawan. Having said this, don't assume i think i know what i'm talking about, because i've only been studying it for a year and a half.....

 

[Matt Stone]

We've addressed this topic before, but I'll try and explain it again.

I know, I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it, but I thought it deserved rehashing...

Kung Fu is used now as a term to describe certain CMA, is taiji truly kung fu? Yes, is the term taji and kung fu used today interchangably? No.
That is why I used the words I did. I don't think using "kung fu" interchangably with "CMA" is going to be the best way of communicating your thoughts and ideas, so I choose to use terms that everyone would understand.

And to a degree that's fine. That is why rather than discussing "kung fu," I try to stick to style names (e.g. Hung Gar, Fut Gar, Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Liu Hop Ba Fa, etc.). It makes it clearer and more definitive instead of the less accurate generalization of "kung fu."

As for taiji influencing every CMA I can agree with that. The fighting principles of taiji are used in many, many different CMA "styles". If you want to get technical according to most historians, taiji was created way before any of the other CMA "styles". That is how it has "influenced" the other CMA "styles".

I'm afraid I'm going to tentatively disagree with you on that... Taiji isn't really all that old, and is based on older arts itself. Chen Taiji is reputed to be a combination of indiginous local boxing mixed with the boxing methods of a wandering individual (I heard he was a soldier, but whatever). The postures of Taiji (no matter the style) are found in many Northern Shaolin styles, further removing the uniqueness from Taiji.

As for its principles "influencing" other arts, and its technical information being widely used, I'd say that if you look closely enough at nearly all CMA, you'll find quite a bit of similarities regardless of styles. I think a common cultural origin, coupled with a long history of inter-style interaction would be more responsible for cross-style similarities rather than the influence of one specific style.

Just my opinions though. To each their own.

 

[7starmantis]

I know, I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it, but I thought it deserved rehashing...

Sorry if I came across as rude, I didn't think you were being a jerk.

I'm afraid I'm going to tentatively disagree with you on that... Taiji isn't really all that old, and is based on older arts itself. Chen Taiji is reputed to be a combination of indiginous local boxing mixed with the boxing methods of a wandering individual (I heard he was a soldier, but whatever). The postures of Taiji (no matter the style) are found in many Northern Shaolin styles, further removing the uniqueness from Taiji.

Do you have any sources to show the "recent" creation of taiji? I've never before heard anyone claim it was more recently created than most kung fu "styles". How about the older arts taiji was based off of? The postures being found in other "styles" isn't as much a proof of influence as is the abundance of principles found in many "styles". I don't think that removes the "uniqueness" of taiji (which I didn't know we were discussing) but rather shows the link between the "styles". It shows the influence different styles have had on each other.

As for its principles "influencing" other arts, and its technical information being widely used, I'd say that if you look closely enough at nearly all CMA, you'll find quite a bit of similarities regardless of styles. I think a common cultural origin, coupled with a long history of inter-style interaction would be more responsible for cross-style similarities rather than the influence of one specific style.

I wasn't aware of a long history of inter-style interaction, in fact I was led to believe quite the opposite from all the research I've done on the topic. Not all kung fu (sorry, CMA) "styles" use the same principles as far as fighting goes. There are similarities of styles that are very closely related, but then we get into that old argument of what defines a different style? Is Wah Lum Preying Mantis and 7 Star Preying Mantis the same style or two different styles? That argument is not interesting to me so I choose to remove myself from it. I agree that styles have influenced each other, but if you trace back those influences, the "style" contributing the most is actually taiji. No other "style" has its principles so widely used by so many different "styles". Of course you can say that is simply CMA principles and you would be right, but in order to trace the history, we have found it attributed to taiji.

No big deal however, to each their own.

7sm

 

[arnisador]

Gross generalization follows:

My understanding is that most--not all!--styles of CMA you've likely heard about date from the 1600s or later, with most of the things that have survived to today in any numbers being from the 1700s and 1800s. This includes Tai Chi. Of course, all these are evolved from older systems.

 

[7starmantis]

I've heard people say that before, but then no one ever knows anything about these "older systems". It seems that if taiji or any of the CMA were derived from older systems there would have to be some proof of existence for these older systems.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

I went back to some research I did a while back to see why it is I believed the way I did about taiji and kung fu. Here is basically what I had uncovered.

TAI CHI:
Many believe the "founder" of Tai Chi as we know it was Chang San-feng. There are those who believe his existence as literary, but acording to Ming-shih (the official chronicles of the Ming dynasty) he probably lived in the period from 1391 - 1459. Tai Chi being "created" sometime during this period.

However, many believe true taiji to have been created much earlier. In the early sixth century BC, there are writings from Lao Tsu which many believe are the beginings of taiji. Lao Tsu wrote:
Yield and Overcome;
Bend and be straight.
He who stands of tiptoe is not steady.
He who strides cannot maintain the pace.

Lao Tsu's entire writings reflect philosophical underpinnings of taiji. There are also accounts of a physician around 220 - 265 AD who not only relied on medicine but taught movements to strengthen the entire body. He believed that the body needed to be regularly exercised to help with digestion and circulation and only by doing so could a long and healthy live be achieved. Between these two historical "stories" many attribute the creation of taiji.

Kung Fu:
Not until the sixth century AD do we see the existence of Bodihdharma who is credited as developing the kung fu styles for the shaolin monastery. We all know that story.
Here is where my opinion begins, I think the principles of kung fu are also those of tai chi. I believe the writings of Lao Tsu are as much applicable to taiji as kung fu. The reason I say kung fu was influenced by taiji is that these "movements" were practiced medicinally before we see them being applied as martial arts. Honestly you could say the beging of CMA as a whole was writings like Lao Tsu's, but I choose to make the distinction because there was a different goal in mind for these movements from one time period to the next. When talking with my kung fu brothers and sisters we don't usually make this distinction because we all believe that taiji and kung fu are basically one, you learn the principles of 7* and those of taiji and they are identical. In our school we dont really care about what came first as we focus on truly learning it all. However, when addressing those outside my school where people get involved in researching historical documents and such its a must that we have some historical beliefs of when these things were created, so we stick to these beliefs.

JMHO,
7sm

 

[yentao]

I have a question that is sure to raise some tempers, but I'm just curious.
Why is it so many people consider Okinawan arts as CMA?
I'm not trying to offend, I'm just curious. I know that some say there system is heavily influenced by CMA, but isn't that ignoring thier own background?

7sm

Some okinawans have chinese ancestry most from Yueh provinces like hokkian. Atleast they don't claim that they originated the art themselves becasue that will be dishonorable. Being part from chinese hsitory is one of their background. Some exiled merchants and generas will settle on the japanese islands. Some trace back from the time of the first emperor of china who ask his generals and wisemen to look for the elixir of youth.