Why I love Capitalism

[Makalakumu]

Here are some interesting selections for further reading...

1. Injustice, Inequity, and Evolutionary Psychology
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucbtdag/bioethics/writings/ineqpoli.html
2. Complex Societies: The Evolutionary Dynamics of a Crude Superorganism
http://www.geser.net/richerson.html
3. Anarchism: Against Capitalism, Against Socialism
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2003/Anarchism-Capitalism-Socialism1dec03.htm

None of these arguments are new, nor are they mine. Are humans naturally selfish? Are they selfless? I think that one can see that the answer is not at all clear. The fundamental force that drives capitalism is self-interest and it is assumed that humans are naturally driven by self interest.

Whether you believe in this or not, just imagine that its not true. Then, our society is responsible for making us greedy. It is responsible for making us envious. Suddenly, the response to capitalism becomes socialism. Entitlements are nothing but the hideous demands of a materialistic society from people who lack the means of obtaining happiness (happiness in a capitalistic society has a price tag and is measured in units of commerace).

This assumption is a snake eating its own tail.

 

[Makalakumu]

The "self-interest" of captialism IS choosing to live for each other. It is capitalism, and all that goes with it, that has BROUGHT prosperity to the western world. If not for the selfish mindset that evolved in to capitalism, there would be nothing but a brutish, savage world, slave mentality world devoid of progress. Selfishness is not a vice, if it is the kind of selfishness that leads us to do what is in our own best interest. Selfishness drives us to excell, to produce and create. God help us if we ever inherit a world filled with selfless, passive people. We will be preparing for the decline and fall of our species.

Who says selfless people are passive?

This is interesting..."The "self-interest" of captialism IS choosing to live for each other..."

Capitalism is a system of trade that reduces things down to units of commerace. It is driven by self-interest. You choose what you want. It is inheritly inward focused and has nothing to do with "each other".

1. If not for the selfish mindset that evolved in to capitalism, there would be nothing but a brutish, savage world, slave mentality world devoid of progress.

2. Selfishness is not a vice, if it is the kind of selfishness that leads us to do what is in our own best interest.

3. Selfishness drives us to excell, to produce and create.

1. That is an unproven assumption.
2. There is plenty of selfishness in capitalism that does not lead to our best interests. Again, it is an inward focused system that has nothing to do anyones interest but one's own self interest.
3. And the willingness to serve others with one's life does not drive one to excell? Try telling that to a preist or a monk. Or anyone else that dedicates their life to the service of others and expects nothing in return...

 

[Don Roley]

But I'm not telling people what I'm worth. I'm not expecting anything.

Here is how you are contridicting yourself as others have pointed out.

When you started talking about solar panels and asked why the company just can't give them to you, I asked you why they should. Here is your response.

I certainly give plenty to society that others do not? Many people benifit greatly from my contributions. Why am I unworthy to benifit from the contributions of others?

It certainly sounds like you think you are expecting getting something in return for what you have given. It seems that you are being greedy in a sneaky way. So sneaky you are not aware of it. That is how people get around doing the things they do. They don't look at their weak points.

Did you not get the agreed reward when you 'gave plenty to society'? What? There was no agreement for you to get anything in return? Ah, so you did something that you think benifits others and now you are going to determine what a just reward is.

If was not a gift given freely out of the kindness of your heart. It was a way of making someone owe you something. When you give something you do not expect something in return. To later talk about what you have given in a tone that suggests you expect something in return is a pretty sneaky way of being greedy. You are probably not conscious of it. But you see how your greed is talking.

What you are doing is like when a room mate washes the dishes and then eats all the food in the fridge and feels justified about it. You may not think that a simple task like that is worth the money you paid for the food. But he feels justified in his own mind.

I just read a few stories in that book by Dale Carnagie of people that history remembers as being vile slugs like Al Copone. They all thought that they contributed greatly to society. Humans do not like to think that they are anything other than honorable and use increadible amounts of mental gymnastics to do that. So who is to determine what the contribution each member makes? The only just answer is that each member should be free to do with their wealth as they choose.

I do not know what you did that you think justifies getting the solar panals. It may be that we would not think it very valuable. And if you want to start talking about debts and balances, you probably owe a great deal already to society and your good deeds are just down payments on that debt. We can't measure and judge just how many goods deeds and debts we recieve and dispense and so trying to bind another to the idea that they owe something to society or to you is folly.

It is greed and envy talking when you talk about how people should give you solar panels because you gave something to society. It is greed and envy that drives a lot of socialism. In a capitalistic society you are free to do good for others- if fact you are encouraged. But you have no moral right to anything from them unless they agree to the transaction. You can't force a sale on them like good deeds in return for solar panels.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Did you not get the agreed reward when you 'gave plenty to society'? What? There was no agreement for you to get anything in return? Ah, so you did something that you think benifits others and now you are going to determine what a just reward is.

I did a benefit seminar, and my name was dropped from three of the four major reviews in the magizines. Some people were concerner I would be upset, I was pleasantly suprised that the fourth had left my name in, even though the other instructor was covered much more.

I did not another benefit seminar with a different instructor, and it was fun and interesting and people there interested in how and where their money was going. It was nice to see them smile when I and the other instructor explained.

Did I expect either of these payouts? No, I was just doing what I thought was right.

I also worked with another guy at my employment to develop a new safety algorithm for work, this was part of our job and also could get us a few dollars more is it became a patent. It did not, but it did make a defensive publication, and I got 75% of the money of a patent which was nice. But ther really nice thing is that anyone who reads can use it for safety on their vehicles as well, so, not only one could use it.

 

[Don Roley]

Did I expect either of these payouts? No, I was just doing what I thought was right.

:cheers:

If there was an agreement that you would get something that both you and the other side had laid out in advance, then getting something would be natural and just.

But doing something nice for someone else does not lay a burden of debt on them. At the same time, it is nice when people do something nice in return. But it has to be their choice and the gift freely given.

I do some volunteer work here in Japan involving language training and helping international understanding. I demand nothing in return at any time. Still, it is damn nice when people recognize me and do things out of the goodness of their hearts as a show of thanks and not because of an enforced sense of obligation.

 

[Tgace]

So upnorth how is your concept supposed to work? Is it believed that everybody (or at least the majority of people) will spontaneously begin "paying it forward"? Or is there an "enforcement" aspect to this structure? How is this society supposed to initiate? Is there a tax plan that goes with it? What do you do with people who dont want to participate?

 

[Makalakumu]

I do some volunteer work here in Japan involving language training and helping international understanding. I demand nothing in return at any time. Still, it is damn nice when people recognize me and do things out of the goodness of their hearts as a show of thanks and not because of an enforced sense of obligation.

This was my intent with the solar panels point. I was trying to explain how a society can "pay it forward" and run on a concept of selflessness.

I guess it is possible to read greed and envy into that example, but that isn't the prime motivation behind what I was talking about. The situation is kind of like a bible passage that talks about love, but some people say it really is talking about slavery. The cultural environment shaped that interpretation just as it shapes our interpretations now.

The bottom line is that I believe that we've been taught to be greedy and envious from the cradle. That is what drives capitalism. If I sound greedy is might mean that even I can't escape all of that social learning...or it could just be a reflection of what is in your own heart.

There is more to what was talking about then this point and I think I clarified the message in other places.

 

[Makalakumu]

So upnorth how is your concept supposed to work? Is it believed that everybody (or at least the majority of people) will spontaneously begin "paying it forward"? Or is there an "enforcement" aspect to this structure? How is this society supposed to initiate? Is there a tax plan that goes with it? What do you do with people who dont want to participate?

Nice word choice...paying if forward. I like it. I've never thought of it like that. Good questions. I've got to dig out a few books...

As far as loving capitalism goes, I don't think "love" is wise. It is the predominant system, but it isn't the only system and it may not even be the best system. Doubt opens your mind to better options if they exist.

The bottom line is that I'm wary of it, but I've learned how to use it.

 

[Tgace]

The "pay it forward" concept is a problem though. Its a pyramid scheme at its root...they never work. So the solar panel guy "gives" you a product. What is he going to get that covers the manufacturing, labor and materials it requires to make that product? Does he "eat the cost" because of the two people who did him favors? And what guarantee is there that the chain of goodwill doesn't end at you?

 

[sgtmac_46]

Who says selfless people are passive?

This is interesting..."The "self-interest" of captialism IS choosing to live for each other..."

Capitalism is a system of trade that reduces things down to units of commerace. It is driven by self-interest. You choose what you want. It is inheritly inward focused and has nothing to do with "each other".

Except that which is created, ultimately benefits the whole. Individual selfishness ultimately creates prosperity. Conversly, and paradoxically, pure selflessness, as such can exist, ultimately creates just the opposite situation.

1. That is an unproven assumption.

History bears it out. The nations who's citizens engage in activity that serves their own interest, end up rising to great heights. At the stage at which nations become bogged down in what Nietzsche called "Slave morality", however, they begin to decline and fall. Greed is good, it drives one to excell. In fact, it might be argued that selflessness in the sense of completely altruistic doesn't really exist, it's merely a fear response.

2. There is plenty of selfishness in capitalism that does not lead to our best interests. Again, it is an inward focused system that has nothing to do anyones interest but one's own self interest.

Ironic isn't, though, that the nations with the MOST "selfish" business men, ultimately become the most prosperous.

3. And the willingness to serve others with one's life does not drive one to excell? Try telling that to a preist or a monk. Or anyone else that dedicates their life to the service of others and expects nothing in return...

And what good does one priest or monk do? I'll wager that one driven, selfish, truly egotisitical entrepenuer does far more good, ultimately, than 100 monks will in their entire life.

 

[Tgace]

Originally Posted by upnorthkyosa
3. And the willingness to serve others with one's life does not drive one to excell? Try telling that to a preist or a monk. Or anyone else that dedicates their life to the service of others and expects nothing in return...

Hmmm...dont most monks and monestaries depend on donations, tithes, begging and/or wealthy benefactors to support themselves? So there is an "expectation" of sorts...and where does that money come from?

 

[Brother John]

Of course you can't. You have been taught that it is impossible. People are greedy selfish beasts. They could never just agree to help each other out...could they?

So your supposed system of 'one hand washes the other' is to save us from ourselves? To force us to be as "unselfish" with our own goods and services as you think we should be....

...it's for our own good and all.

((Please note: though this discussion can get seemingly heated, I hold you in high regard.... at least you THINK about life and the way things work. Many just go on and on w/out doing so. For that alone, you are above average.
and I am enjoying this discussion.))

Your Brother
John

 

[Rich Parsons]

:cheers:

If there was an agreement that you would get something that both you and the other side had laid out in advance, then getting something would be natural and just.

But doing something nice for someone else does not lay a burden of debt on them. At the same time, it is nice when people do something nice in return. But it has to be their choice and the gift freely given.

I do some volunteer work here in Japan involving language training and helping international understanding. I demand nothing in return at any time. Still, it is damn nice when people recognize me and do things out of the goodness of their hearts as a show of thanks and not because of an enforced sense of obligation.

Actually the agreement was for Lunch. We got Lunch and Dinner from the Host(s). Once again more than I expected and well appreciated. But there was not agreement with any magazine for any story(ies)

 

[Brother John]

So the solar panel guy "gives" you a product. What is he going to get that covers the manufacturing, labor and materials it requires to make that product?

The manufacturing and labor will be done out of the kindness of the workers hearts....and they WILL all Willingly do so out of the goodness of their hearts.
The materials?? Donated to the solar panel guy...cuz he's contributed SOO much to society already and is a heck of a dude.

Your Brother
John

 

[Makalakumu]

All good points. There are problems either way. The point is doubt...not love of capitalism. Doubt opens doors.

Regardless, we are stuck with capitalism. I bring up again, Jared Diamond's book Germs, Guns, and Steel regarding the spread of civilizations. Egalitarian systems were arising in places around the world and they fell to the swords of capitalistic systems not because of some inherit superiority of the western system, but because of environmental factors.

Here are some more writers that detail some of the points that I've brought up far better then I did...

Chris Wilson, Nadia C. (Warning...title of this essay contains a profanity), Max Stirner, Bob Black, John Zerzan

All very interesting. Nadia C. has some interesting ideas, is funny and is right the **** on. All have different ideas regarding alternative social structures.

 

[Makalakumu]

The manufacturing and labor will be done out of the kindness of the workers hearts....and they WILL all Willingly do so out of the goodness of their hearts.
The materials?? Donated to the solar panel guy...cuz he's contributed SOO much to society already and is a heck of a dude.

Your Brother
John

Well, sort of.

On small scales, communes work and people share all resources out of selflessness. I can envision a society where people naturally come together in communities like these and a very small federal government that concerns itself with defense encompases it all.

Unfortunately, the concept of the super-state, runs this type of society into the ground. It's easier to control the donkey with the carrot so you teach the donkey to go after the carrot.

 

[Don Roley]

The bottom line is that I believe that we've been taught to be greedy and envious from the cradle. That is what drives capitalism. If I sound greedy is might mean that even I can't escape all of that social learning...or it could just be a reflection of what is in your own heart.

Actually, I consider greed and envy to be the prime motivating factors behind communism.

In a free, capitalistic society anyone with wealth is free to give it to those with less. So they have no need to put in place a society where they are required to give.

But anyone with kids can tell you that they tend to grab for other kids toys as soon as they can wrap their fingers around them and it takes learning to supress that urge and respect other people's toys.

Humans want things, and they want to get it as easy as possible. Unless you train kids in respect for other people's property- the respect you need in capitalism- you end up with greedy folks trying to get as much as they can with no consideration for others.

And it is these people that look at those that have more than them, lick their lips and start talking about how the rich should help those that have less.

Greed and envy- two vices that all humans have from birth to a certain extent, and the prime reason socialism will always have supporters.

 

[Ray]

I believe that capitalism is the best economic system on the planet. We have scarce resources that need to be "rationed." How do we do it? Those who have the most money can have the scarest or most expensive (or the most) of these resources.

We strive to be as successful as we can, so that we can enjoy those commodities too... That, we do, in our own self interest. We strive for that which we value.

Note, though, that Henry Ford paid his workers more than the competition. Why? Because it was in his self-interest to make it possible for them to buy his automobiles.

Is it in my self-interest to let my neighbor starve? No. Is it in my self interest, were I a captain of industry, to pollute the towns where my workers lived? No.

 

[Marginal]

Is it in my self-interest to let my neighbor starve? No. Is it in my self interest, were I a captain of industry, to pollute the towns where my workers lived? No.

It is if it makes you more money, and you don't have to live next to them.

 

[Ray]

It is if it makes you more money, and you don't have to live next to them.

Not really. If I were a captian of industry, I would need a source of healthy, reliable workers. To jeopordize their health, lives and the lives of their families would be counter to my best interest in the long run.

If I were just in it for the short term, then yes, I suppose I could make my money quick and forget the people.