Why do people cross-train in such similar arts?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by skribs, Apr 26, 2019.

  1. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I expect it'll cycle. We see things in all areas of training that could be considered "styles". Look at fitness crazes, group fitness classes, how people train for strength, etc. I do think there's a lot of style-mixing now, and it's starting to result in new thoughts on what a "style" is. Then, in a while, we'll get a new bunch of "styles". It's the nature of humans - we tend to classify things.
     
  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't think the OP was suggesting there was something wrong with this, rather that he didn't get it...why would someone choose this instead of just training more in their primary art.
     
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  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    HH, you seem to have come to this thinking it's a confrontation. I think h'es just curious about people's reasons.
     
  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    We can say why we cross-train in some things related to our own arts. What's the complaint here, why so hostile? It's just intellectual curiosity.
     
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  5. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I train or have trained in a number of closely related systems: BJJ, Judo, Sambo, wrestling, etc. I view it as just studying different perspectives on the same fundamental art. The differences are just contextual variations based on competition rules and culture. The underlying principles are the same. It's all about how to control another person's body.
     
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  6. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    For many the lack of options limits the ability to cross-train. Had it not been the only style/school in my town my MA journey would have not went down the TKD road.
    To the question, as a person learns more about the MA's by progressing in their base art, it is only natural to want to expand their horizons. If a school/instructor offers enough variety to keep a person rooted there, that is great. Sometimes the more curious person will search elsewhere.
    As far as value in "rounding out" you skills, I would say you cannot put a price on that. And it depends on your intentions. If you are working to create your own style I see no other way to do that. As well if you feel something is glaringly missing in your current style/school. Again, this is something seen much better as a person matures in the base style.
     
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  7. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Because they are similar, not identical. I have Dan ranks from the KKW, the ITF, and the MDK, so I'm one of those you're talking about.

    Honestly, some of it is availability. I grew up moving to a new military base every 3 years or so. And at that time, ITF schools were easy enough to find. When there was none, I trained in other systems, including systems totally unrelated to TKD. Later in life, ITF schools were more difficult to find. Hence the KKW and MDK.

    But there is certainly more to it than that. There are small, sometimes very subtle differences in the way these similar systems approach things. There are differences in how specific things are applied. There are differences in what aspects of the Art are stressed. Much of this can be seen even within different schools that are nominally part of the same system. And that is good.

    Personally, I think that only training in one school, under one set of instructors, is less than ideal. People who do so are apt to become members of the "one way" school of thinking. This can slow their development and understanding.

    Take the way people look at the techniques in forms. @skribs, this is a question specifically for you, as the OP, but it would be good to hear from others.

    In Palgwae 8, there is a movement during which you step to the side and throw both a rear elbow strike and a punch of=ver the same shoulder.

    034.JPG

    What is your understanding of the application of this movement?
    As with other movements in forms, students are taught that the movement is used for "X". But what I hope to show here is that "X" will vary depending (in part) on those differences I mentioned above.
     
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  8. MetalBoar

    MetalBoar Green Belt

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    For the first decade plus that I was doing martial arts I did a lot of Aikido and Hapkido which, depending on the schools, can seem almost identical or almost unrelated. Mostly I changed schools when I moved or a school shut down, but I also learned that there was a lot to be had from seeing the same techniques performed with a different emphasis. I've done very large movement, flowing and Aiki focused Aikido and very small circle Hapkido with a much greater emphasis on force and breaking the opponents structure rather than blending with them and a lot of stuff in between. I found that both approaches had situations in which they shined. I also discovered that for me it was much easier to practically apply the more flowing and blending Aiki style of techniques after I had a solid foundation in the more direct version. I think for someone who has only seen one variation on these techniques there's a lot to be gained from experiencing related but substantially different variations.
     
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  9. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    I'm assuming you've been with me for my "what's the meaning of X" threads in the Taekwondo forum. My Master says punching over the shoulder to describe this move, so I'm assuming punching someone who has grabbed you from behind. However, this is also one of those where the technique seems to be of such niche use, and we learn a lot more techniques for that type of situation.

    Now, are there other techniques that use a similar motion? Yes.
    1. Some of the techniques I mentioned above would start with grabbing or trapping the hand over your shoulder. I'd use a little bit of a different motion for that, with my elbow tucked down and my hand open.
    2. Elbow strike
    3. Maybe a hook punch, but I wouldn't follow through that far
    4. A hinge block (good against backfists and uppercuts), which I'd do without following through so close to my head
    5. Bringing my hand up to prevent a choke (like the trap, I'd do with an open hand and my elbow tucked)
    6. Blocking my ear from a head kick (I'd do that with an open hand and my palm out)
    However, I'd argue that I only know these because I've learned them in other ways.
    1. I've learned these in Hapkido class and in elective self defense drills
    2. I've learned this by practicing elbow strikes in class
    3. I've learned this by practicing hook punch in class
    4. I've learned this from Keumgang and also from watching Wing Chun videos
    5. I've learned this from watching UFC
    6. I've learned this from sparring training
    I don't feel I've gotten any of these applications from the form itself.
     
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  10. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Is there a way to follow a specific post? I am very interested in @Dirty Dog 's query to @skribs.
     
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  11. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    If you are as obsessive about forums as I am, you just follow all the posts.
     
  12. paitingman

    paitingman Purple Belt

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    I was taught that maneuver as a wrist control and an elbow strike, then perhaps taking that arm and performing a shoulder throw.
    Do you practice Palgwe forms? I'm also curious to see what others have trained this movement for.
     
  13. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Yes, we practice 3 Kicho forms, 5 Pyong Ahn forms, 8 Palgwe forms, 8 Taeguek forms, 9 Yudanja forms, and a mix of older MDK and TSD BB forms. In other words we have to opportunity to learn a lot of technique.
    I see that it is not uncommon for different school/styles to number the forms in different orders. That was one reason for my query. I think @Dirty Dog 's #8 Palgwe is different from ours.
    Regardless of the order or number of the form, the move in the video is used against the first attack from the rear in our order (Palgwe 3) of forms. The same move is performed to both sides. After the finishing the line with the inside crescent kicks, you are grabbed from behind and spun around. Concurrently you set your elbow and fist. The elbow is driven in with force as you spin to your right into a horse-stance. Most of the punches force comes from the attacker driving into your fist from the gag reflex of being hammered in the solar plexus with the elbow. That is why you don't have to reach past your head on the punch. Then the same move is performed on the right side of the body following a horse-stance shuffle to the right. Sound familiar?
     
  14. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Like I said, I was wondering if there is a way to follow a specific post or thread. I am not well conversant on the terminology.
     
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  15. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Isnt that cheeky watch thread icon at the top of the page?
     
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  16. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Well that was easy wasn't it. An extended senior moment. Living the dream.:)
     
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  17. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Late to the party, but I can answer the question for me, which is different from the other answers i skimmed over. Ive trained in a couple different ken/mpo styles, even in the same sub-kempo system. The reason was a: i like the philosophy of the system, and b, more importantly, availability. When.i went to college, i had to find a new style of kempo, because villari skk wasnt around. In high school i switched to a different skk lineage after getting frustrated with my schiol, because there wasnt a school of the same lineage around. When the owner of the school changed/was sold, i studied a slightly different version of kempo, and when he fell ill i went back to villari skk, after a search, because again it was the form of kempo i found.

    Imagine if you moved somewhere where there was no tkd, but there was tsd. Theres a good chance youd try that, and if you stuck with tkd, theres a good chance youll stick with tsd while you live there, eventually (and more quickly than others) earning a higher rank
     
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  18. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Is there a difference between kenpo and kempo, or is it more a pronunciation thing?

    What you say about moving around, or having schools open and close or getting new Masters and instructors makes sense.
     
  19. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

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    We do the same motions in Shotokan. In addition to the other applications mentioned here... I see this as a hip throw and as the upper body motion for many foot sweeps. Lots of good stuff in those motions.

    You technique list, with the similar motion is great. I hadn't thought of 4 or 6. Now I will have to...

    Of course you didn't get these from the form itself. You have to look outside the form to find them. (the name gives you one to start with) The form develops the speed, power, balance, transition... a lot of core stuff. This core stuff, should then apply to your 6 applications. If you think about it as a elbow strike, even if you leave your hands the same, your body will emphasize certain parts of the movement. If you focus on those, then try the hook punch, and add in the emphasis you just found from doing the elbow, your hook punch should get better. Then, you can see what emphasis the hook punch naturally has, and try that with the block to the head. Each additional application will stress different parts of the same movement. Thats the beauty of these kata / form movements... they allow you to practice the core fundamentals of lots of applications at once.
     
  20. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It's a pronunciation/translation thing. In theory, it gives you a bit of insight into the lineage (if I practice a style that goes by kenpo, you can probably assume my instructor called it kenpo/his instructor called it kenpo), but there's no guarantee of that.
     
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