Where have all the FMAs gone?

[Brian R. VanCise]

I must add that some modern FMA techniques wouldn't work with a real blade. You have to use a stick (i.e. blunt weapon) or get yourself all cut up. With that in mind, I really don't see the value in moving from sticks to simulated blades.

That is definately true if you are working with a blunt impact tool mentality. However, many FMA's work with an edge/blade first mentality and those that train this way need to work with wooden blades, simulated blades, etc. If you want to work with just sticks that is fine but remember all of those things you learn certainly do not translate to the blade.

 

[Bill Bednarick]

Originally Posted by JBrainard
I must add that some modern FMA techniques wouldn't work with a real blade. You have to use a stick (i.e. blunt weapon) or get yourself all cut up. With that in mind, I really don't see the value in moving from sticks to simulated blades.

It's fine if you only want to use sticks in your practice.

There are FMAs that are only stick arts.

But don't kid yourself into believing that blade training has little value or that being single faceted is a good thing.

It may have little value for you at this time, but why limit your growth?

 

[Hand Sword]

I must add that some modern FMA techniques wouldn't work with a real blade. You have to use a stick (i.e. blunt weapon) or get yourself all cut up. With that in mind, I really don't see the value in moving from sticks to simulated blades.

I'm not a FMA'er per se, although I've dabbled, so I'm not trying to ruffle feathers. Just some honest thought being given to a subject, as I've said heard complained about for years. From my understanding the sticks replaced blades for training purposes originally. As we've experienced, bad habits form, that are hard to get rid of. I wasn't going for blade use for practice. That would be foolish, and get you cut up as you've said. I was thinking along the lines of "wooden" weapons. Shaped like the ones used in the FMA's. That would allow the "blunt" practice and stop bad habits from forming.

 

[Bill Bednarick]

I'm not a FMA'er per se, although I've dabbled, so I'm not trying to ruffle feathers. Just some honest thought being given to a subject, as I've said heard complained about for years. From my understanding the sticks replaced blades for training purposes originally. As we've experienced, bad habits form, that are hard to get rid of. I wasn't going for blade use for practice. That would be foolish, and get you cut up as you've said. I was thinking along the lines of "wooden" weapons. Shaped like the ones used in the FMA's. That would allow the "blunt" practice and stop bad habits from forming.

Precisely!

Live blades have their place in training but rarely will it be in a partner drill.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Even better than wooden training blades are aluminum and other new composite training blades.

Though I like to practice with them all!

 

[Hand Sword]

Good stuff too! It's time for the FMA's to evolve then? Get rid of the "sticks"? Go with more realistic representations to aquire accurate skills! This rational thinker agrees! (I also agree that you gotta handle the real stuff too and get used to it)

 

[arnisador]

The blade for understanding the mechanics and fine-tuning the movements, the stick for flow and instinctuality.

I prefer a blade for flow, but both will work!

I can't "cheat" by peeking at the blade when I'm using a stick.

I don't think I've heard it put quite this way befoer, but we do emphasize that the students must strike correctly, with blade awareness, without following the stick with their eyes!

 

[Carol]

I prefer a blade for flow, but both will work!

They could very well be teaching the blade for flow as well. I'm seeing what I see through the eyes of someone who is very much an inexperienced novice.

 

[LocknBlock]

I can see all the points as valid, however it seems that the part the sticks plays is to be able to absolutely manipulate the tip of the stick. While training it was stressed to us to learn as we train to watch the tip of our sticks to the target, so as to get results such as broken thumb & knucle, wrist bone shattered, forearm bone fractured, then there are the pressure point strikes with the tip of the stick etc..., also I think getting your body to truly attune to the movement that will give you max force with least amount of effort, thus meditation in motion. Simulated blade training I agree is a good phase of training to supplement or even compliment other training such as 'dulo-dulo', taught in Kombatan & Eskabo Daan out of San Francisco . It is training that will enable one to utilize the little 'maglite' flashlite as an effective defensive weapon, so one could use the side of the blade or the back if it is one-side sharp, puno or the handle, if a folder use it closed , an excellent 'dulo-dulo'. CHEERS!!:jediduel:

 

[Carol]

Should the ART change?

Or should the STUDENT change?

If someone doesn't want to train with sticks...perhaps they largely want to know how to fight with their everyday carry clipped to their pocket...should the arts eliminate stickfighting to fit these students goals/desires?

Or should the student seek out training that is specifically knifefighting, such as AMOK or an RBSD?

 

[stickmaster2000]

Use of the blade within the FMA may well have been the original method, especially with styles from the Southern regions however, the use of the stick as a weapon in itself is also part of the FMA.

When using the stick (as a stick) there are certain skills and techniques that can be applied that you could not apply with a bladed weapon, for example; some of the locks, throws and takedowns etc (especially from the Cacoy Doce Pares Eskrido System). Were you to use a bladed weapon to achieve some of these techniques you would either cut your opponents limb/s off, (ok, nothing wrong in that!...) or worse, cut off your own! (very wrong!....).

I have seen many students who utilise the stick as a substitute for a blade manipulate it in such a way as would be impossible were it actually a blade. This comes from a misunderstanding of the weapons attributes and functionality.

I think it is important to train both, stick and blade (wooden, aluminium, dull edge steel or live blade - yes even with a partner... someone you trust would be a benefit!). Each will teach something very different.

The secret is to ensure that your training methodology reflects the type of wapon you are using and it is not true that the stick is mearley a substitute for the blade..... it is also a weapon in its own right.

 

[Hand Sword]

I agree with that assessment. Sticks and stick styles have become their own animals, and are legitimate, as opposed to being substitutes. I don't think that was ever being argued. My points came from my dealings with the FMA. I was commenting on the "bad habit forming" ideology that was being presented, which rang a bell with me, having heard the same comments for years. Going with previous points made, if sticks can do the "blade" movements (which they do), and can be manipulated in ways that a blade can't (which is also true), then I would ask all of you FMA'ers, are their "bad habits" then? If you're "back handing" to go with the fastest movement at the time to strike the opponent, is that wrong? Or, if there are "bad habits" (not moving like a blade), should that be focussed on? If so, does that mean round sticks gotta go? I guess the question is what are The FMA's? Blades or sticks? Sticks as sticks, movements etc.. or sticks as blades? Apparently it can't be both, as the overlaps of movements and techniques contradict each other.

Not trying to cause problems here (really) I just find this interesting and stimulating to my dormant M.A. thinking-LOL.

 

[arnisador]

I agree with that assessment. Sticks and stick styles have become their own animals, and are legitimate, as opposed to being substitutes. I don't think that was ever being argued. My points came from my dealings with the FMA. I was commenting on the "bad habit forming" ideology that was being presented, which rang a bell with me, having heard the same comments for years. Going with previous points made, if sticks can do the "blade" movements (which they do), and can be manipulated in ways that a blade can't (which is also true), then I would ask all of you FMA'ers, are their "bad habits" then? If you're "back handing" to go with the fastest movement at the time to strike the opponent, is that wrong? Or, if there are "bad habits" (not moving like a blade), should that be focussed on? If so, does that mean round sticks gotta go? I guess the question is what are The FMA's? Blades or sticks? Sticks as sticks, movements etc.. or sticks as blades? Apparently it can't be both, as the overlaps of movements and techniques contradict each other.

These are good and fair questions!

 

[stickmaster2000]

I agree, the subject is very interesting and yes bad habits can be formed in both cases, 'stick as stick not blade' and 'stick as blade not stick'.

I have always found it best to ensure that when I teach stick based techniques I make my students use a stick and when I am teaching blade I make sure they use either a wooden blade shaped weapon or aluminium/dull edge steel blade. In this way, there is never any confusion.

I also tend to steer away from telling them that the stick is used as a substitute for the blade, especially in the early stages of their training.

 

[Hand Sword]

Good ideas. I also found that people move in terms of what they're holding. If it's a knife, they cut properly, making the effort to use the blade. If it's a stick, they move in terms of a stick. I doesn't do any good to hand them a stick, and say "cut like a blade, follow the tip etc. That's why I feel what is being learned should be established, and trained that way, with the right equipment.

 

[stickmaster2000]

Yes, I have found this to be very true. I have also found that the 'mindset' also changes once a blade is placed in the hand/s as opposed to a stick and viceversa.