Intersting....From my talks with higher up, old schoolers, who knew Mr. Cerio, that, the forms came right out of a book, by Mas Oyama (Kyokushinkai system). At least 1, 3, 4, and 5. Number 2, he created himself.
My old instructor (no longer with him) told us that the pinan kata were 4 short katas learnt before kusanku to make it easier to learn. I don't know if there is any truth to this as my old instructor was not known for telling the truth
Cheers
Sam:asian:
Pinions 3,4, and 5 come from the shotokan Heieans (sp sorry) they are almost the exact same. Here is how i describe them to my students. 3,4,5 were taught to Prof. Cerio - he Kemponized them - he then taught them to GM Villari who then Kung-funized them. So you now have 3 generations of forms that have changed from the original intent. I do get confused about the origins of 1, which is my fault because i have been told it but it does not resemble Heiean Shodan at all and yes 2 pinion was made up by Prof. Cerio. If you look at some of the Hawaiian forms they have a good shotokan influence.
In Peace
Jesse
He wasn't wrong that there is some thinking that the Pinans did come from an earlier Chinese form which might well have been Kusanku, and that Anko Itosu created the Pinans on that basis. But the part about doing it to make it `easier to learn' Kusanku is up for grabs. Iain Abernethy has a detailed analysis of the Pinans in which he arguesvery persuasively, I thinkthat each of the first three Pinans corresponds to a combat tech set for progressively closer fighting ranges, with the last two offering more advanced supplementary material. He's got the deepest technical analysis of the Pinans out there, I think. I have a link I can send you later to an article of his summarizing his results.
That would be very much appreciated
Marlon
Danjo said:Oyama trained with Funakoshi and got his kata from him.
I heard this too, but i also heard that there were very few Kempo organizations on the east coast (zero i think) so Prof. Cerio learned the forms to be part of a Shotokan Org. this way he had a board of people to talk and trade ideas with. This could be wrong and i am ok with this. But i do know that these forms are almost identical to the Shotokan Heieans. All of which i have learned to try and find some of the original meanings behind. Plus, i have a few black belts from Shotokan in my school and it is painful for them to do the forms a different way.
In Peace,
Jesse
He wasn't wrong that there is some thinking that the Pinans did come from an earlier Chinese form which might well have been Kusanku, and that Anko Itosu created the Pinans on that basis. But the part about doing it to make it `easier to learn' Kusanku is up for grabs. Iain Abernethy has a detailed analysis of the Pinans in which he arguesvery persuasively, I thinkthat each of the first three Pinans corresponds to a combat tech set for progressively closer fighting ranges, with the last two offering more advanced supplementary material. He's got the deepest technical analysis of the Pinans out there, I think. I have a link I can send you later to an article of his summarizing his results.
As a former Shotokan guy myself, I can feel their pain. It just kills me sometimes how so many things are so similar yet so different. It really plays tricks with my old brain. I have to actively think about not doing them the way I learned them but the new way I am being taught.
Can I get a link to that article, too, please![]()
Hi guys, sorry this took so longif you could see the state of my study at the moment you'd understand why it took me all night to find this article. Here's the link:
http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_10.asp
This will get you to the article, which gives some very suggestive background history. BUT...
... for a relentelessly detailed examination of the technical combat content of the Pinan/Heian katas, showing that in Itosu's time they were regarded not as a pattern within an overarching martial art but rather regard as a martial art on their own, take a look at the following links:
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan1.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan2.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan3.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan4.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan5.asp
These articles constitute a short monograph on the combat system encoded in the Pinans, but recoverable with the aid of interpretation principles that UK karateka have in recent years spelled out in articles and books that are in effect users' manuals for combat applications of kata movements. Take a look at what IA has to say about the way in which the first three Pinans cover proressively closer fighting ranges, while the last two Pinans introduce more advanced and technically sophisticated ways of linking the techs in the first three Pinans.
By the way, I got all this stuff from IA's website, which is 100% free.