When is Tang Soo Do no longer Tang Soo Do?

Discussion in 'Tang Soo Do' started by Master K, May 30, 2007.

  1. zDom

    zDom Senior Master

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    I remember not long after my friend, Tim Wall, joined up with the U.S. Chung Do Kwan , GM Ed Sell asked him,

    "Why do you guys wear Tang Soo Do uniforms?"

    :)
     
  2. Master Jay S. Penfil

    Master Jay S. Penfil Blue Belt

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    How is GM Sell doing?

    The last time we were together was at the EFC convention in Ft. Lauderdale in 1989 or 1990.

    Are you still a member of his association?

    Do you train in Ann Arbor with the Hefner's?

    I was in their school last April. I had gone with my girlfriend to Ann Arbor for dinner. After dinner we went for a long walk around town and found the school. We had a good conversation with one of the Hefner's (I don't recall his first name).

    We were watching the class (along with twenty or thirty other spectatators. He walked up to me from out of left field, greeted me and than asked; so where do you teach? I found that pretty impressive. there must have been at least 50 students training on the floor. He looked at me from across the room and was able to determine that I was an instructor...
     
  3. zDom

    zDom Senior Master

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    (response via private message so as not to highjack)
     
  4. VNoble21532

    VNoble21532 White Belt

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    I am doing my best to try to understand what was in Grandmaster Hwang Kee's head when he set all of this in motion. I think that those principles are TSD in a pure form. The forms have great significance, and we must all realize that there are Chinese, Japanese, Okinawan, Korean, and now American influences. We can never agree as long as we choose to argue about this stuff.
    I'm not real smart, and neither do I have any answers to this TSD question. I do feel that we should take a step backwards towards the beginnings when we were more together and the feeling of TSD was fresh. I liked it when we referred to each other as blue belts. We WERE fresh.

    V. Noble

    TANG SOO!!
     
  5. Master Jay S. Penfil

    Master Jay S. Penfil Blue Belt

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    What KJN Hwang Kee passed down to us in TSD was the shell of the system originally taught in Okinawa...

    This is an old conversation that has often times upset many who have ONLY trained in TSD and never cross trained in any systems that came before TSD.

    Hwang Kee trained under Lee Won Cook after Master Lee returned from Japan. While in Japan, Master Lee, along with General Choi Hong Hi and other Korean practitioners trained in Shotokan under Funakoshi, Gichen. They earned their Nidan (2nd degree black belt) ranking prior to returning to Korea.

    Master Lee founded the Chung Do Kwan. He was teaching Shotokan as he had learned it from Funakoshi, but called it Chung Do Kwan.

    Funakoshi was a student to Anko Itosu, one of Okinawa's most prominent instructors, and the creator of Pinan/Pyong Ahn series, as well as Bassai-Sho and Naihanchi Nidan and Sandan.

    Funakoshi had never learned the Bunkai for the kata. He was not interested in the Bunkai. His intention was to teach a system that would promote good health and character. He was firmly against fighting.

    Funakoshi's senior student was Shiguro Egami. Egami authored the book "Karate-Do Beyond Technique". In this book Egami wrote; the master (referring to Funakoshi) never taught us Bunkai, as he had himself, not learned it from Itosu prior to coming to Japan.

    This is an important piece of the puzzle that you are trying to put together. If you follow the lineage of our system, and when I say; "our susyem", I am referring to all of the instructors in the line dating back to those who created the forms/Hyung/Kata that were incorporated by Hwang Kee in his original curriculum, the Bunkai was cut off with Funakoshi. Lee could not teach it to Hwang Kee because he couldn't learn it from Funakoshi. Hwang Kee couldn't teach it to usm as he never learned it from Master Lee.

    If you want to learn the Bunkai you must find those who train in the older systems from Okinawa that have passed it down in their lineage. That is what I have been doing for the past 39 years.

    Contact me if you are interested in discussing this further...
     
  6. Dana

    Dana Yellow Belt

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    Jay wrote: "Hwang Kee trained under Lee Won Cook after Master Lee returned from Japan. While in Japan, Master Lee, along with General Choi Hong Hi and other Korean practitioners trained in Shotokan under Funakoshi, Gichen. They earned their Nidan (2nd degree black belt) ranking prior to returning to Korea."

    You know, I could certainly be wrong, but there is some unsubstantiated information in this quote. First, where is is documented that GM Hwang studied at the TSD CDK? I know that one CDK practitioner (GU) stated this after his "Interview" with Lee, Won Kuk, but I've never seen this anywhere else. I'd love to know if this is corroborated elsewhere.

    Also, the only person who said General Choi trained SDK with Funakoshi was General Choi, who conveniently "lost" his supposed 2nd dan certificate so no one ever saw it. Again, I'd love to know if this was corroborated anywhere.

    Now, I'll concede the major point of lineage!!! :)

    Dana
     
  7. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    Actually, Gen. Choi said that he learned karate while in Japan from a fellow Korean while living in Kyoto. He did say that he had occasion to train at the Shotokan, and I have seen a picture of him there. But he never claimed to be a student of Funakoshi's as far as I know.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  8. Victor Smith

    Victor Smith Blue Belt

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  9. 195

    195 White Belt

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    Tang Soo Do is just another name for martial arts. If you think specifically in terms of "what is tang soo do and what isnt" than you will always be limited. If you let go of this idea you find that Tang Doo Do is everything, not just martial arts. It is a way of being.
     
  10. Rumy73

    Rumy73 Black Belt

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    My understanding is that GM Hwang Kee actually wanted a unified approach. This was one of the impetus behind the founding of Soo Bahk Do.
     
  11. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    Is this Vallaincourt? You can find a reference to it also in General Choi's autobiography if you don't want to believe me.
     
  12. kbarrett

    kbarrett Orange Belt

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    Tang Soo Do has been and always will be Tang Soo Do, it may change over time and place, and will differ from association to association, and with more schools take little kid it may not be the same as it once was, but no the less it's still Tang Soo Do. I think Master Jay S. Penfil say's it the best, read what he wrote and your answer will be right in front of our faces.

    Ken Barrett
     
  13. Black/Red Block

    Black/Red Block Yellow Belt

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    I loved Tang Soo Do when I used to train in it. I was "pushed out" when my Instructor advised me I should take up an "Black Belt Instructor's Course" for a special price of "£10,000.00" He started to introduce this programme and that programme, Direct Debits etc. Increased the grading fees soooooo much it was embarrassingly expensive

    He became a McDojo, A belt factory, A Pyramid selling system where the product was Martial Arts. He was looking at the money removing the Ethics of Tang Soo from the style. I can't forgive him for this.

    So in answer to your question "When is Tang Soo Do no longer Tang Soo Do?"

    Its when the Instructor(s) see it as a money cow and lower the standards etc. and look at what's in it for them not what can they give to the art!
     
  14. DennisBreene

    DennisBreene 3rd Black Belt

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    Hwang Kee actually described aspects of Tang Soo Do as water flowing downhill (I paraphrase). The water forms rivulets and flows around obstructions, converging and diverging in its path. Master Hwang expected those that followed him to adapt to changing needs and encouraged it.
    Dennis
     
  15. DennisBreene

    DennisBreene 3rd Black Belt

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    I've always wondered why schools insisted on numbering their one-step-sparring and self defense techniques. We were not taught that way and I don't have the disconnect of remembering technique #3 before employing it. The technique flows from the attack and the defense flows as the attacker flows. Simple and straight forward as you master a technique. And I agree that less is usually more. That is the Tang Soo Do I learned. Much repetition of graduating difficulty. You didn't test until Master Roberts told you to test and he did not tell you to test until you were ready.
    Dennis
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2012
  16. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob 3rd Black Belt

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    Why I consider the Korean TKD & TSD under the umbrella of traditional karate.... This Master has done some research, in more detail than I was aware of....
     
  17. Laplace_demon

    Laplace_demon Black Belt

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    I would in the case of ITF. The isolated techniques are largely the same, patterns are not.
     
  18. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob 3rd Black Belt

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    THIS TIES TO MY POSTS AT THE "SHOTOKAN FOR SELF DEFENSE" THREAD.
    /
    WHAT IS THE 'ESSENCE" OF TRADITIONAL KARATE
    |
    I questioned K-MAN about the "essence" of traditional karate. The essence of traditional karate to me, is a conceptual definition first. The essence of traditional karate is not about lineages, structure and lists of physical techniques. Inclusion and divergences among kata, hyung, poomse, forms, etc. various karate styles, Okinawan goju ryu v.s japanese goju kai, etc.
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    Using the global question put forth in this thread, here is how I would lay the foundation for defining Tang Soo Do. By it's essence.
    |
    |
    For brevity, I limited my take on "essence" to the 5 Values and 8 Key Concepts. These to me, define the training exercises, all the physical form should be based & built on these.
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    The problem comes in that these are generalizations, and deal with intangible mental skills which can only be inferred through the physical actions. The benefit to these is that we see that physical form of the martial techniques is based on a subject these principles. The physical form is secondary to intangible qualities of the human being.
    |
    BTW: Notice that "Technique" is only 1 of 5 Core Values. This is why I took up a simpler form of traditional karate.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2015
  19. Oldbear343

    Oldbear343 Orange Belt

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    This is a little over generalised IMHO - there are many ryu's/flavours of karate, and although some, like goju, use many low kicks, many others emphasise high kicks.... ☺
     
  20. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master Black Belt

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    Thank you for saying this.
     

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