Whats your favourite weapon?

[muayThaiPerson]

My mouth

 

[MartialArtist]

http://www.sightm1911.com/M1911vsM9.htm

What you're trying to argue ZDW is a proven, reliable .45 that was proven for over a century vs. a caliber (9mm) that's been proven for SMG's and law enforcement, not much else. The Luger used 9mm parabellum, and it was a very good 9mm, but from all the reports... Guess what gun wins, Colt or Luger. Both were well-designed, both were accurate. But...

 

[A.R.K.]

What you're trying to argue ZDW is a proven, reliable .45 that was proven for over a century vs. a caliber (9mm

No sir, what I was arguing was first and foremost a handgun is not going to knock you backwards. Secondly that the 9mm, as does the .45 has a fine tract record....for a handgun. Thirdly that items such as energy transfer and stopping power are unrealistic buzz words used in gun rags. And Lastly that M & S and the OSS are questionable and based on faulty assumptions.

I have both the 9mm and the .45 and I feel comfortable with either. I do not feel that the .45 is vastly superior over the 9mm. Same with the other service calibers. I don't consider the OSS study as valid for many reasons, some of which I have already posted.

And once again I state that the priority considerations are Function, Penetration and accuarcy under stress. Take care.

 

[MartialArtist]

No, what you're saying was that the 9mm is superior to the 45 in general. One of the things you said was that it was faster, then you said the caliber difference was minimal, and so on.

Faulty assumptions? The IWBA is looked down upon by a lot of places because it lacks real-world results. You want real-world results? You have over a century of information from the primary sources of WWI to the war in Afghanistan. Remember, they had to double tap with a 9mm, and double tapping isn't great. And also, against terrorists, most terrorists now wear vests of some kind. A 9mm is like a Super Soaker against that. Might as well bring an airsoft gun.

There is good reason why most SWAT team members, and NO elite military soldiers carry the 9mm. Even though the Beretta is of pretty good design, it doesn't cut it.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
JN,

With respect, I have to disagree with OSS statistics. They are not based on reality. The employ data that at least in part has been publically discredited by the very source represented and is based on arbitrary criteria.

First, M & S's OSS statistics have been debunked based on their data base for nearly a decade in professional journals. In several cases, the source of their alleged shootings be it a department or individual have come forth and stated that either the incident never happened or it happened in an entirely different manner that was reported by M & S. This is not in dispute and has been reported numerous times in professional journals. M & S's response has been to sequestor their data base or ignore the charges altogether. This is intellectual dishonety to use statistics that were either created or altered to portray a preconcieved idea.

Second, their OSS criteria is unrealistic at best. In order to be included in their data base the shot must have been an unobstructed torso shot. I would offer a loose percentage of 70% of police/citizen shootings are through outstretched limbs or common barriers such as doors, walls, windshields etc. To represent only unobstructed shots is to taint the results towards rounds that would normally under-penatrate in living tissue. In addition to this, they view an individual who falls down within 10 feet of point of shooting as a stop without regards to weapon used by the BG or incapacitation. For example, the situation I used earlier in which the Bg was shot in the leg, breaking the femur and fell down. Going soley on their arbitrary guidline of 'stops' this could be counted as a stop. But only because his weapon was an edged weapon and his victim was out of range when he fell down. Had this been a firearm he would still have been capable of returning fire. So it is only a stop if the situation permits and can change from situation to situation. It is arbitrary.

So we have a data base that only represents a small fraction of shootings in individual calibers, a data base that has questionable content of which some has been proven faulty and a shooting guidline that does not address common shooting obstacles or distinguish between incapacitation and continued threat capabilities.

I do not say this to embarras you Jonathan, I too once felt their data was strret proven results. However, as the years went by and new information surfaced I saw the faulty assumptions on which their definitive study was based.

First of all, no need to deny your intend. You have tried repeatedly to embarrass me, but, due to your failure to adhere to the facts, your attempts were futile. It does not bother me when people attack me, as long as they have the guts to own up to it. This is the internet. I don't take things here personally.

Secondly, it is you who constantly bring up the OSS. I only brought it up to expand for the readers the unending feud between M&S and Frackler's IWBA, in which, the majority of the personal attacks coming from the IWBA camp.

Thirdly, you have repeatedly, deliberately mislead the readers by falsely assuming where I get my information.

I have provided the battlefield reports and police reports from various PDs, counties and state police, NOT from the OSS study you so loved to trash. In fact, I have not cited any statistics from OSS. It is only you, who attempted repeatedly to put words in my mouth.

All the battlefield reports about the 45 and the shooting reports from PDs all over the country, have nothing to do with the OSS. They are all from other sources. All the feedback on the 35 sig, 40 S&W, are from the users. None has anything to do with M&S or the OSS study. It pertains to IWBA, b/c this real world result poked holes in IWBA's theory.

It is you, who take the argument here as M&S vs Frackler IWBA.

Jonathan, you spoke of the 135 grain .40 S & W round. Because of it's sectional density it can be counted on to average perhaps 10 inches of penetration. In a perfect, unobstructed torso shot on an average male that might be enough penetration to reach a vital or CNS. But it is not a perfect world and one should not count on a best case senerio. One should hope for a best case but prepare for a worst case senerio such as oblique angle, cross torso, outstretched limbs and common barriers.

The 124+P Gold dot 9mm routinely has around 15 inches of penetration and has an excellent record of barrier penetration and adequate tissue penetration. We have had through and through shots but the rounds were usually recovered feet away, not down the street as some unreliable gun rags would have you believe.

This is where your problem is. You cannot accept the reality. The 40 S&W has a 96% one shot stop real world result. The 40 S&W is one of the most successful ammo ever introduced. And your comment is" it can't even knock down a camera light"

Here is another problem you conveniently ignored. You have gone out of your way to trash the OSS and M&S, that you forget the fact, both M&S and the IWBA camp AGREE on what the best loads are for all calibers, EXCEPT in the case of the 9mm where the 2 side disagree.

You are too blinded by your IWBA mantra on 12'' penetration and hitting vital organs, that anything else that does not support that is labelled blasphemy.

Do you see me trashing the 124+Gold Dot 9mm? Of course, penetrating (hence trashing) the vital organs, work. Of course, shot placement is paramount. But real life result also proves that shots to non-vital parts work if the wound channel is large enough. That is why ammo that does not rely on ONLY hitting the vital organs is preferred.

I think I am more concerned about your safety than you are mine. I am not talking about jello tests. If the lab results back up real life that is fine. But the OSS does not touch on real life either. If it did it would have to comprise all shootings in a particular caliber/weigh/bullet type and then assess the results. This of course has not, and could not happen due to the tremendously difficult nature of the work load. The OSS is reletively small in comparision to the overall number of shootings. It has been proven that at least some of the data base was created as well as altered. I know that the 9mm by several manufacturers has done as well as can be expected from a handgun. Same with the .45 and the others as well. I no longer trust my life to ammo [regardless of caliber] that under penatrates or is the expensive exotic type that also underpenetrates. That is my choice. I want something that I know will function well in my pistol, something that has a very good change of adequate penetration and something that is accurate under stress.

St. Petersburg PD has recently gone to the G22 in .40. There qualifications in stress fire have dropped dramatically agency wide from when they used the G17 in 9mm.

Thankyou for your concern. This is the internet. It is not warranted. We are all adult here. No need to patronize.

Again, it isn't about the OSS. It is about PD's reports, which you labelled as "falsified".

"..That is my choice. I want something that I know will function well in my pistol, something that has a very good change of adequate penetration and something that is accurate under stress....." And that is why, the elite military and LEO units, all choose the 45!!

With respect, you say the guy . Could you be more specific because the IWBA comprises multiple individuals from the military, LE agencies as well as technical entities.

The 120 lb, 20 yr old got shot with 3 HydraShok and a 12 gauge blast.




Yes, but there are several forums there in which professionals post to each other as well as the public at large. Including Shawn Dodson, Gabe Suarez, Terry Murdock, Fernandez [one time of Triton cartridge] etc and even occassionally Marshal Evans etc. Specific forums such as the Caliber forum or Cop talk is a good place to inquire their input.

Good talking with you both. Stay safe. [/QUOTE]

 

[A.R.K.]

MA,

No, what you're saying was that the 9mm is superior to the 45 in general. One of the things you said was that it was faster, then you said the caliber difference was minimal, and so on.

I don't see a problem here. More rounds, same penetration [given equal sectional density], less recoil, more range, less expense thereby promoting increased training per $. If you feel that the .45 is vastly superior in terminal performance to the 9mm that is fine. I would ask you to cite the study or studys that reach this conclusion for us to review. The fact that some military units have gone back to the .45 does not prove it's superiority. And remember, I have a .45 and carry it daily. I like the .45 very well, I simply do not subscribe to war stories over facts in it's abilities.

Faulty assumptions? The IWBA is looked down upon by a lot of places because it lacks real-world results.

Where are these places and who are these people?

And also, against terrorists, most terrorists now wear vests of some kind. A 9mm is like a Super Soaker against that.

So is any handgun caliber without AP ammo.

There is good reason why most SWAT team members, and NO elite military soldiers carry the 9mm.

Could you please cite your sources for SWAT teams please. By what nationally reconized survey do you base this statement? Particuarly since there are still more 9mm sidearms in service at this present time than all other service calibers combined. Additionally you may need to rethink the elite military angle. It is not correct. The Israeli's for example use the Glock 19C throughout it's IDF. I should know...I've trained with them. And I know several former SEALS that feel the 9mm is just fine...in fact their motto was '2 to the chest and 1 to the head and your DRT.'

My dear Jonathan

First of all, no need to deny your intend.

Never have.

You have tried repeatedly to embarrass me

I think you have done a fine job of this without my assistance. Even though MA and I disagee on some issues, we both have repeatedly, as have others, to convince you that a handgun bullet will not knock you down. Do you still beleive it will???

It does not bother me when people attack me

Attack you??? I think perhaps you need to reread my original post to you. It was and still is with respect. I have tried to educate you, and so have several others. You being resistant to this does not necesitate and attack on my part.

I have provided the battlefield reports

That have been debunked....

The 40 S&W has a 96% one shot stop real world result.

Not in the real world it hasn't. What is your source for this....of course it is M & S. They have been discredited, not just by the IWBA but in the professional journals. Your failure to keep up on this is not my fault. I pointed out several problems with it that you cannot refute.

The 40 S&W is one of the most successful ammo ever introduced. And your comment is" it can't even knock down a camera light"

Well when you have it on video tape....

I am not going to go with the latest trendy ammo in hopes that it is going to 'knock em down'. I am going to go with a proven product regardless of the caliber used. Have you bothered to read Shawn Dodson and others report on the OSS? You very well may learn something that may save your life one day. For every 'failure' with a 9mm you show me I can easily show you a 'failure' with your .40/.357sig/.45 etc. I can also show you spectacular successes with each. They are all about the same. If you get a warm fuzzy with a 1mm larger projectile at equals velocity and sectional density as the 9mm...by all means go for it. Whatever makes YOU happy :rofl:

Take care gentlemen. :asian:

 

[MartialArtist]

Same penetration? At times, but if you're saying a 9mm can penetrate farther than a .45, you're crazy.

A FMJ .45 ACP round rips a hole through the person and can go through walls and end up in a neighbor's house. There are records of that happening. A 9mm just lacks the power. If caliber had nothing to do with power or penetration, why doesn't everyone just use a 9mm? Why the .50 cal machine guns? You make no sense. A .440 corbon has more recoil than the .50, and what's more is that it's a .50 AE with the dynamics of a .44 magnum. That thing right there can be lethal for over a mile.

Yeah, the 9mm is the most "circulated" because the M9 is issue. But nobody really uses the issue. My sources were listed in those weblinks.

Okay, with this statement "2 to the chest and 1 to the head and your DRT", I have to say that I really do have to question whether you are legit or not. I never was a real expert, but I cited my sources. You have nothing to back up other than the IWBA and you're "experience" but it's almost impossible to check your sources. The 2 to the chest and 1 to the head isn't for military combat with a handgun... It's more of a rifle motto, with the 5.56mm. A lot of the times, soldiers just don't have the time to aim for a headshot. The 2 to the chest and 1 to the head for handguns are done to make sure one is dead, not to kill him in the heat of battle. I'm surprised someone who's so experienced doesn't know that. Even criminal justice lawyers, many who've never shot a gun in their life, knows this. Smart criminals who, especially those who used to be ex-military or ex-law enforcement, do this to make sure the person they murdered is actually dead.

Having to double tap and aim for the head is painstaking and a waste of time and ammunition, and time and ammo could mean life or death. Double tapping, from the reports from JN, said that it was a waste and a nuisance, but much worse, could mean death. Double tapping, especially double tapping and aiming for the head, gives a good soldier enough time to draw his weapon. Now, as you said it yourself, what's better...

A) 3 shots from a 9mm to make sure one even goes down
B) 1 shot from a 45 to the torso to bring the man down due to injury

9mms don't have more ammo than a 10-round 1911 mag. Hell, it can't even hold more ammo than an 8-round mag.

And ZDW, you are confusing two things.

In the perspective of just pure physics, a bullet will not knock you down. However, shooting a person is different from shooting an inanimate object. Physiology and anatomy have to be taken into account, and a bullet, not due to its dynamics but to what damage it causes, brings the person down.

Example:

Get a metal dummy with a realistic human base (on two legs). Shoot the head. Doesn't go down.
Get a human who weighs just as much and has the same base and shoot the person in the head. Goes down. Unless you are Superman, you will go down.

See, that's what I mean by real-world results. Real-world takes EVERYTHING into account. You just take physics. Real-world takes physics, anatomy, etc.

 

[A.R.K.]

Same penetration? At times, but if you're saying a 9mm can penetrate farther than a .45, you're crazy.

No, I'm quite sane thank you . It is simple physics. Penetration is a function of weight in relation to sectional density. For example, a 115 9mm has the same sectional density as a 135 .40 or a 185 .45. All will reach approx. the same penetration depth in tissue. This is not something to debate my friend Same for a 147 9mm/180 .40 or 230 .45 [approx].

A 9mm just lacks the power.

As I've shown before, a 9mm has equal or greater power aka kinetic energy than a .45. Doesn't make it better or worse. Kinetic energy is really a mute point in the handgun levels. And I assure you a hot 9mm Nato fmj will do the same...I can ASSURE or of this.

As for the '2 to the chest and 1 to the head', I think you've really gone overboard here. As I said, it's a motto just like one shot, one kill etc. It is a sound tactic if you come to find your enemy is wearing a vest however.

One round of .45 to the chest might bring down an individual but I can show you a multitude of shootings in which an individual has received several COM shots with a .45 and ran from the scene. A .45 is nice, I have one...but it's not magic. It has an overinflated reputation.

Function.....penetration.....accuracy under stress.

Stay safe. :asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

my mind, my hands and feet

 

[MartialArtist]

http://www.madogre.com/Interviews/ballistics.htm

I was talking with one of my brothers about some different calibers and velocities. Something we often talk about. This led to the IPSC's Power Factor, which is simply Bullet Weight in Grains, Times Velocity, Divided by 1,000. This is an easy formula that one can use when comparing loads... but doesn't take into effect Caliber. W x V / 1000= PF. Nice - but not enough. I personally think Caliber is a CRITICAL FACTOR in a defensive bullet.

I have been thinking about this for a few minutes now, and I think I have another similar formula that will be more accurate when looking at and comparing different loads.

One of the most popular methods of comparison is the M&S OSS%. I think the M&S study has some merit, but the study, due to its critical flaws, has been debunked as junk science. (more on that later) So a simple mathematical formula like what the IPSC uses should be of some help. IPSC's goal was to create a certain level that allows people to compete on a more even playing field.

This is a new scale... So the numbers are going to look different, but bare with me. Once you starting running this formula with different calibers and loads, you will see some interesting results:

Bullet Weight in Grains, Times Caliber, Times Velocity, Divided by 1000 = Defensive Power Factor or DPF for short.
For 9MM and such you of course use its actual measured Caliber .355 or what ever your bullet is actually sized at. 10MM is .40 cal etc.

Example:
A 230 grain .45 load: 230*.45= 103.5 *900/1000 = DPF 93.15

Smaller caliber bullets will have smaller numbers, and mouse guns will look more like mouse guns that they are on this scale. That's why we call them Mouse Guns. Don’t get pissed at me if your choice of a carry package looks wimpy.

No – the DPF its not perfect... but its simple. K.I.S.S! That is the whole point.

Just for fun - lets look at the .454 Casull:
300 grain bullet, .45 caliber, 1650 FPS speed = DPF of 222.75! Too Bad that .454 Casull pistols make poor Carry Guns!

The DPF Formula works on rifles as well, but you need to change the scale. For Rifles, don’t divide by 1000… Divide it by 100.



Now, the Speed Freak guys that think faster is better might be getting a little irked here. But I think this is showing a more accurate picture. I mean, everyone knows .308 hits harder than .223, so these numbers should not surprise you. You have a bigger caliber, heavier bullet... it will hit harder that a smaller, lighter one. That's physics. Putting Egos aside - I think that this is a simple and easy way to compare loads. I am not suggesting you compare Rifle calibers to Handgun Calibers in terms of effectiveness - but it is useful when comparing Rifles to Rifles... Such as .223 and .243... And .300 to .338 etc

Will this end the 9MM vs. .45 debate? No. (but it should, damn it!) The speed guys continue to talk about Hydro Static Shock. I don’t have a formula that factors in Hydro Static Shock... as we don’t have a way to accurately measure that. The 9MM vs .45 debate is one of the eternal issues for the gun culture to talk about. Personally, I favor making as big of a hole in my target as I can.

To full understand the DPF theory, one must understand the background to the ISPC Power Factor. The reason for the two different classes has to do with scoring. A 9mm typically has much less recoil then a .45. This way, the playing field is somewhat equal. However, a 9mm bullet can still make major (.38 Super). On the other hand, it'll have much harsher recoil then a minor 9mm. The reverse can be applied to the .40 S&W. It can be shot in the minor or major class depending on the PF. This is where reloading is a big bonus.

IPSC PF = wt * V / 1000

Where: wt=weight in grains, and V=velocity in fps

Major is from 175 up.
200 gr. .45 bullet at 900 feet/second = 180 power factor.

Minor is from 125 to 174.999.
125 gr. 9mm bullet at 1000 feet/second = 125 power factor.



Adding the caliber to the formula gives us a yard stick for it’s defensive potential. This formula favors bigger calibers, and heavier bullets... But then again - IPSC's formula was weight friendly too and people can moan about hydrostatic shock but that fact is bigger caliber bullets make bigger holes. If you have ever seen with your own eyes the dead bodies of people shot with handguns... you see just the hole and wound channel... You don’t see any temporary wound cavity.



.38 Casull, .38 Super, .357 SIG... I think the formula is fair to those as well because they are all actually firing similar sized bullets. Let’s be real… they are all “Fast Nines” launching the same pills. The only differences that matter here are the weight of the slug being launched and the velocity it’s launched at.

Let’s look at the smaller calibers for a sec. Run your favorite .32ACP load against other .32ACP loads. Now compare the .32ACP vs. .380ACP. Toss in the new .32NAA cartridge. What about .22 vs. .25?

I think once you starting lining everything up you will see that everything falls into place rather nicely and anything with a DPF over 40 is a potent load that you could carry for CCW with confidence.

Bullet types are interesting... Hollow points don’t always expand. How could you factor that in the equation and keep it simple? Probability of expanded caliber after the bullet stops, Starfire vs. Hydra shoks? Lets not go there. But - if you want - it might be fair to give your self a .5 point bonus to your hollow points should they expand as advertised. That’s up to you. Use the formula as you like.

The first person that raises there hand to ask about SHOT SHELLS will be flogged by chanting nude Gregorian monks with whips!

Okay, what about shot shells? What the hell. Let’s go ahead and look at that for a bit.


Since shot shell loads are so different, the only to give these a rating, is to combine the DPF scores of the individual shot within. This will give you the POTENTIAL DPF, since the shot will spread on the target and many of the pellets may miss. You'll need a micrometer to measure some of these... Do the DPF on one... then multiply that against the number of pellets. Same thing with loads that have different sized pellets. Factor all the different sizes. Potential is all you can have on the shotshells, but it still works. Now some shotgun guys are going to complain about something here, but give it a rest. Take comfort in the DPF score of one of your slugs! Judas Priest!



You can’t create a formula that will take EVERYTHING into account including expansion, fragmenting, and shot placement. It gets too complicated. Can't be done. Simply can not be done. Because you would have to factor in bullet shape, jacket thickness, the target’s mass, air density and humidity… a million things.



Now, more on M&S ratings. Marshall and Sanow's theory is erroneous. They gathered police shooting and autopsy reports. Then culled out all cases where an individual that was shot received only a single gunshot wound. That wound had to belong to the upper torso (what we commonly call Center of Mass.. COM). All other shootings were thrown away and were no longer part of the analysis. Marshall and Sanow then took all of one hit reports and determined how many of them resulted in a "stop," which they define as a “cessation of hostility within a certain time period”. The figure represented a percentage of all the single COM hit cases, is the official "one shot stop percentage" for that caliber. Their study is dramatically flawed due to the discarding all incidents where it took more then one shot to stop an individual. The reason for the flaw happens when you must use deadly force, you keep shooting until the person stops attacking you. Therefore, the odds are extremely high that if you only fire at someone once, it is because he stopped attacking you after one shot and fell over dead. In those cases where only one shot is fired and the attacker did not stop, that is likely due to the BG taking your gun, or killed you.



Many of the forensic studies show that a single shot to the CNS (central nervous system) will result in an immediate stop. However, the difficulty of a CNS shot is very high. The majority of CNS shots are by good luck. Marshall and Sanow ignored several variables like the type of firearm used (barrel length, rifling type and rate of twist, etc), specific shot placement, angle of shot, etc. Yet, all COM results were discarded by M&S.

It’s humorous looking at their 93 to 96% "one shot stoppers." On the other hand, most people are aware that handguns simply aren’t that powerful. One only needs to ask an EMT. If a 96% on shot stops meant that a round had a 96% chance of stopping an individual, then shooting someone twice with that round should yield a 99.8% chance of stopping the attacker. That’s as close to 100% as you can get, and no one is suggesting that a double tap with any handgun ammo can guarantee a stop. What about the other 90+ percent of shooting incidents where there were multiple shots to the COM? Why didn't the attacker die after one shot if it's a 90+% one shot stopper?

Basically what I’m blabbing is, there are no fool proof formulas. Marshall and Sanow do have some good points. However, a majority of their study is flawed. If they had relied more heavily upon physics and ALL shooting reports, their study would’ve been more realistic.

My advice is carry the biggest, most comfortable caliber that YOU WILL HAVE WITH YOU AT ALL TIMES. It’s pointless to say that the 44 mag is the best CCW if it’s impractical for you to conceal. If you can’t hide it well, then you can’t carry it. If you can’t carry it, then what is the point? It’s better to have any gun in a defensive situation then no gun at all.

So - where does this leave us?
With a simple formula easy enough to run in your head while shopping for ammo or looking at two pistols and your thinking which one is for you. It is a mental Ballistics Gel Test.

If your looking for a formula for determining the Magic Bullet - It isn’t gunna happen, there is no Magic Bullet... Only in the movies. Even the Seeker Bullets from the Movie "Runaway" didn't work 100%. Maybe .50BMG could be it, but you can't that fit that into a 1911...

For some more information:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

 

[A.R.K.]

And there you have it

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

Does indeed have much more to say about M & S OSS study being junk science and in much greater detail than I have posted here.

Well done.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
And there you have it

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

Does indeed have much more to say about M & S OSS study being junk science and in much greater detail than I have posted here.

Well done.

Stop ping-ponging, that was not what anybody is talking about. You are the only one claiming one supported OSS studies for some reason.

The articles there go AGAINST you. .45 over 9mm

 

[MartialArtist]

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm

So, what were you saying? The .45 penetrates more in general than the 9mm, and stopping power isn't even taken in account.

 

[arnisador]

Perhaps this discussion should be taken to e-mail.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Shinzu]

amen.... lets get back to MA (no offense)

 

[A.R.K.]

arnisador,

Perhaps this is a good idea.

MA, you are welcome to PM or email if you would like to continue the discussion. I think we have taken the same road to the same place but perhaps we haven't met along the way yet. See ya on the other threads sir :asian:

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Why even bother? ZDW or MRJ or whoever he calls himself this day, will just continue to twist the facts in desperate attempt to support his erroneous positions. It is just going in circle, repeating the same BS over and over again. May be he believes that if you repeat some lies often enough, they become truth.

ZDW is one of those who go to the airport and insist he sees UFOs landing.

Facts upon facts have been piled onto his forehead. Yet, nothing gets through. If it wasn't for the benefits of other readers who might read this thread, this has indeed being a tremenduous waste of time.

It is a good thing that since most of the BS he asserted can be easily rebutted by anyone who knows anything about firearms, little risk of potential harm to the uninformed readers remains in this thread.

The best advice to the readers is to check out the references, links and articles provided. You can decide for yourself.

 

[A.R.K.]

Do you feel better now :rofl:

By the way...I don't believe in UFO's.

And I fully agree with the one factual thing you've wrote so far...

The best advice to the readers is to check out the references, links and articles provided. You can decide for yourself.

Cheerio :ultracool

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

It is NOT about feeling better.

It is to prevent uninitiated readers from been mislead into arming themselves with over-penetrating, and under-expanding ammo, that end up getting themselves killed.

Your info is dangerously misleading.

If you were the firearm expert that you want people to believe, you would have known:

1. If people arm themselves with AMMO that require them to get only shots to vital organs, they put themselves in an extremely dangerous situation. When people encountered danger, or awakened in the middle of the night, their ability to stay cool, calm and then AIM precisely at the criminal's vital organs, is GREATLY compromised.

When they arm themselves with over-penetrating ammo, one shot-stop is compromised.

Therefore, they MUST equip themselves with AMMO that have ONE-SHOT STOP ability w/o needing to "shoot 2 times into the chest and shoot 1 more at the head". They wouldn't be able to do that when they are flushed with adrenaline and panic.

Martial Artist posted that the shotgun is the best choice in those situation.

2. The 45 has 65% more cross section area than the 9mm. It is very dishonest of you to pretend that the difference is only 2mm and therefore pretend that it is not as effective as the 9mm. The 45 has been proven in battlefields for so many decades. The lethality of the 45 is beyond question.

3. The FBI SWAT, FBI HRT, the LAPD SWAT all use the 45. MA listed the military elite that use the 45. When it is mission critical, the 45 enters the scene.

4. You posted that a PD adopted the 40 and the qualification went down. An honest man would know that is b/c the 40 is a more powerful round than the 9mm, and hence it requires more practice to be proficient. This flies in the face of your baseless argument that the 40 is only 1 mm larger than the 9mm and "cannot hit a camera light off" . You have this incredible and shameless ability to post selective information to mislead readers. You posted that the 45 is only 2 mm larger than the 9mm, knowing that such reasoning is garbage. The 223 is only 0.003 larger than the 22, yet what a difference! If you didn't know this, than you are even more worthless than you have presented. You posted that a 20 yr old 120 lb guy still needed to be phyisically restrained after been shot with 3 Hydrashok and a 12 gauge and tried to present that as your proof that the 12 gauge was not lethal. Obviously if that story is even true at all, they must be mitigating circumstances that contribute to his surving those shots. Anyone who know anything about firearm would know that , a center blast from a 12 gauge within effective range, is DEADLY. If hit in the chest, a gapping wound. IF the limb, you lost that limb. It is totaly dishonest of you to post that story to mislead the readers into the false belief that taking a 12 gauge blast is not going to kill you. Your dishonesty went further when you posted that someone survived a blowblack of the bolt from a 50 and argued that the 50 is not deadly. The list goes on. Examples and examples of intellectual dishonesty by selectively posting information with the intend that the readers would reach the erroneous conclusion.

I have a strong sense of kinship with RSK. WE both dislike fraud with a passion.

If you simply hold on to erroneous views, that is understandable. But to deliberately posting selective information, and to deliberately misinterpret facts, to mislead the readers into believing something that is false, is the conduct of a crook.

 

[arnisador]

This thread is now locked. Please take this discussion to e-mail. It is generating more heat than light at this point.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-