Whats required to get that Black Belt?

[CuongNhuka]

mmm... strange. I've never heard of such a thing. 12 miles is after all nearly a marathon.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

That's just not feasable for many old timers who are still quite capable of defending themselves. My father tells me it's about ending it right away cause you don't have the wind like some of the young guys do. Bad knees are hard to run on and I don't think I know anyone with good knees. Maybe running 12 miles for your "Bruce Lee Test" might be more apropriate.

 

[Kacey]

I have to agree with those who think a 12 mile run is excessive. My I Dan test took all day, and included all of my patterns (9 patterns, 6 exercises), step sparring (3 step, 2 step, 1 step, prearranged, and free sparring), hol-sin-sul (self-defense demonstration), and line drills (hand and foot techniques). Each test after that has built in this - at each level, practitioners are responsible for the requirements for the next rank in addition to all of the requirements for all preceding ranks; for my next testing, I will be performing all of the above, plus an additional 16 patterns, 4-on-1 free sparring, an additional quantity of hand and foot techniques (at 3-5 new hand and new foot techniques per rank, times 15 ranks [10 color belt, 5 bb]), and a technical demonstration of my devising, along with a thesis.

I could not pass the above BB test, nor could I ever have done so - but I would venture to say I could defend myself at need. I would have to ask how many people have to fight their way out of a situation - or even escape it without fighting - and then run 12 miles immediately afterwards. Where would you be going? And from where? The middle of the wilderness? I truly don't mean to be impolite - but is this truly realistic?

In addition, what about people who learn all of the other requirements, and are physically incapable of running that far? I don't mean people whose fitness is poor - I mean, for example, a woman I know who is in very good shape, except for an ankle that was badly injured in a car accident, who is under doctor's orders not to run or jump, lest her ankle need to be pinned in a fashion that makes it impossible for her to bend the joint. Does that mean she can never be a black belt in your organization? Bear in mine that I ask that some months she earned her BB with us after a great deal of hard work - much more than most people because of the injury and the limitations it placed on her training, and the amount of pain she endured to reach her current level.

I know another BB who is a security officer, and has used his skills several times over the course of his training in the course of his job, proving, to m, at least, that his skills are good - but at 50+, he would never make the PT requirements.

IMHO, BB testing should push people to their limits, yes - but not to the point that the average person cannot attain the standard set - too many people do not have the time (family, work, school), or have a physical concern that prevents the type of training described. For a fit, healthy, uninjured teen or twenty-something, a fitness test may be appropriate - but not for those who have proven their skill and are incapable (not unwilling) to meet the PT requirements, I have a real problem with making that mandatory.

Does that mean that an instructor or other senior cannot keep their rank if something (illness, injury, age, etc.) prevents them from improving - or proving - their fitness? That despite their knowledge and experience, they can never move forward? I have a real problem with that concept.

 

[terryl965]

12 mile run are we trying to get in the Olympics as a long distance runner. This is just so wrong, if this was the case almost every BB i know would still be a brown or red belt.

 

[jdinca]

I've got a simple question...

WHY do quite a few schools or systems seem to put almost (and sometimes not almost) more emphasis on passing a PT test than demonstrating skill, whether through forms/kata, sparring, or other examinations?

I'm not suggesting that there should be no fitness requirement -- but I know of a couple of tests where the majority of the time involved in testing is spent doing PT tests, not evaluating skill. To me, if you're fit enough to pass sparring tests, and strenous tests of the basics -- you've shown you've got the appropriate fitness. The reality is that pushups, pull ups, runs, swims, and the like don't really go long ways towards measuring the fighting fitness of the candidate. I've seen guys who'd literally breeze through PT tests... but be out of gas by the end of the first round of a three 2-minute rounds fight. And I've seen people who couldn't do a 1/4 mile run easily who could fight without strain for hours. As I said -- I'm in favor of some basic PT standards. But when the "martial arts testing" spends more time and energy testing things from high school gym class... I think the balance has gone a bit off kilter.

I agree. PT is great and a martial artist should be in excellent condition, especially when testing for black. I'm wondering why that can't be tested with martial arts?

Any running requirement would automatically cancel me out. I can run several miles, but my knees will be out of commission for days afterwords. I'd rather have my fitness level tested on the mat, along with my skills.

To each his own, I guess.

 

[jks9199]

mmm... strange. I've never heard of such a thing. 12 miles is after all nearly a marathon.

12 miles is almost a half-marathon -- which means it's nowhere near a whole marathon.

Doesn't make the idea less silly, of course.

 

[stone_dragone]

IMHO, BB testing should push people to their limits, yes - but not to the point that the average person cannot attain the standard set -

A follow-up question to this is "Can the average person pass a black belt test?"

I would give a whole hearted "no." If the average person can walk in off of the street and pass my black belt test, then why are my students working harder than the average person? Are the people who have quit before black belt considered sub-average?

food for thought.

 

[jim777]

My gut feeling is that this is a response to the percieved thought of McDojos handing out BBs to anyone who'll pay for 2 or 3 years of lessons. They are trying to make their BB seem like it is a big achievement, and it absolutely should be. It should be an attainable achievement as well, though
I had previously thought our starting with 100-150 pushups and 200-300 situps (and doing all our integrated Hapkido rolls and takedowns in the concrete parking lot) was tough. 12 miles, and then another 12 miles on day 2?!?! To be honest, the day I found out that those were the requirements would likely be my last day at the school....unless I could get a Reebok running shoe sponsorship or something. :lol: Can you even run 12 miles on back to back days?

jim

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Can you even run 12 miles on back to back days?

I've done it, about 15 years ago while I was in some pretty hardcore training in the US Army. Don't even want to think about doing it once again now!

 

[Southwell]

If I could run 12 miles, I wouldn't of had to learn Karate, LOL

 

[Shaderon]

My gut feeling is that this is a response to the percieved thought of McDojos handing out BBs to anyone who'll pay for 2 or 3 years of lessons. They are trying to make their BB seem like it is a big achievement, and it absolutely should be. It should be an attainable achievement as well, though

jim

It's possible though my gut feeling is that the person who sets the tests is a runner and feels that everyone should be able to attain his/her own standard of fitness, which is totally stupid because some people just arn't built for running but can swim or cycle until doomsday. I can run 6 miles, but my sparring beyond 2 minutes gets a bit flakey, I know someone who can spar very well for a long time but can only run 2 miles. It doesn't compute, they don't relate. Sparring is stop-start, you can back off and get a quick breather, go intense and slow down, it's non regular interval training if anything, a 12 mile run is solid non stop distance training, they don't have much in common.

I think a 12 mile run is very excessive, there's not many people who would need to run a long distance and finish with a fight, unless they were a foot-soldier in a very old fashioned army.

Is this more spartan training?

 

[Shotochem]

12 miles? I could do it. If I were to take my car.

I think 1-2 miles is reasonable. 12 no.

From a completely selfish standpoint, I pay to train MA. I do not enjoy running, swimming, or even lifting heavy weights anymore. If I want to do any of this I would join a gym or get a personal trainer.

If I had to run away from a bad guy, chances he would give up the chase after a block or 2. Any more would have to be one be a highly motivated felon.

-Marc-

 

[Tames D]

I wonder if marathon runners and swimmers are required to perform Martial Arts as part of their training...

 

[chinto01]

Read this to day lets us know what you think.

This is roughly what was required to get a black belt with this one school!
Who thinks this is normal or over the top?

The grading is spread over 2 days.
Day 1: Start with a 12 mile run followed by a lack crossing/swim.
Next set of exercises 50 of each
then a run through of every belt grading.
2min session of people attacking while you block.

Day 2: Another 12 mile run then a run through of the 96 preset throws
the 50 exercises again.
and some sought of sparring session.
and if time anything else.

What I have down may be slightly wrong.

A 12 mile run followed by a lake crossing /swim. Sweet lord I wonder how many people have gone to the bottom?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[Kacey]

A follow-up question to this is "Can the average person pass a black belt test?"

I would give a whole hearted "no." If the average person can walk in off of the street and pass my black belt test, then why are my students working harder than the average person? Are the people who have quit before black belt considered sub-average?

food for thought.

And a follow-up to that would be "should only athletes be able to become black belts?" I've been in TKD for 20 years, and have never trained for the level of fitness described in the initial post in this thread. Quite frankly, I work full time, work part time (teaching TKD), and go to grad school - when in the hell would I do the training that would require? What about people with kids? Sick family members? Pre-existing injuries or other conditions that preclude that level of fitness? Are all the people who could attain such a level of fitness but can't for non-MA related reasons to be prevented from attaining black belt because they can't pass a fitness test that goes way beyond the requirements for the armed forces? I can't see why it should be that way. If you like it and you and the other members of the class are happy with it - good for you. But IMHO, that doesn't mean the rest of the world should meet that standard, nor that people who cannot meet that standard should be eliminated from consideration before they even start - honestly, if I'd had those requirements to look at when I started, I'd have quit, because I wanted to learn self-defense, not running - and I have.

 

[chrismay101]

Take a look at this link it should take you to the section im on about have a read. It taken off there website from an interview he did with combat magazine. if its not working sorry im a computer gom!!

www.ju-jitsu.co.uk/images/combatmag6_large.jpg

 

[terryl965]

Knowing your material and alot of practice.

 

[stone_dragone]

And a follow-up to that would be "should only athletes be able to become black belts?" I've been in TKD for 20 years, and have never trained for the level of fitness described in the initial post in this thread. Quite frankly, I work full time, work part time (teaching TKD), and go to grad school - when in the hell would I do the training that would require? What about people with kids? Sick family members? Pre-existing injuries or other conditions that preclude that level of fitness? Are all the people who could attain such a level of fitness but can't for non-MA related reasons to be prevented from attaining black belt because they can't pass a fitness test that goes way beyond the requirements for the armed forces? I can't see why it should be that way. If you like it and you and the other members of the class are happy with it - good for you. But IMHO, that doesn't mean the rest of the world should meet that standard, nor that people who cannot meet that standard should be eliminated from consideration before they even start - honestly, if I'd had those requirements to look at when I started, I'd have quit, because I wanted to learn self-defense, not running - and I have.

I'm on board with you on this, don't get me wrong. I think that the school in question at the heart of the thread is extremely excessive. I do think that rank in martial arts should reflect skill in the martial arts, not skill in swimming (unless the school teaches swimming techniques as part if their curriculum...entirely possible, I guess).

One thing that we aren't considering is the conditioning program that comes with the class. Of course the average person can't run 12 miles two days in a row, but I'd venture a guess that if the school has those requirements and there are people who have passed them, then the school probably trains and mentors the student's physical fitness level to be closer to the "standard" for the test.

In my instructor's school, we strongly caution beginners to NOT try to keep up with the class until they get more used to it. There are other options to road-work for cardio for those who can't run yet.

It should never be expected for someone to come in off of the street and run 10 miles and then complete the rest of the test. Quite to the contrary, it should be presented as "...if you stick with it, by the time you get to black belt you will be able to run 12 miles and..."

My personal spin on things is that promotion should be based 50% on set skill and knowledge standards, 25% on personal improvement and 25% on attitude. Personnally, I think that fitness is important, but it is not a measurement on my black belt standards. No matter how big a student's heart, motivation and fitness level, if they can't perform a particular form and be able to discuss it's bunkai then they're a no-go; same if they can't apply sound self-defense principles to impromptu attacks.

 

[stone_dragone]

Also...if the teacher isn't doing the run with the testing students, then it completely looses credibility for me.

 

[IcemanSK]

Knowing your material and alot of practice.

I agree with Terry, here. The triathalon makes no sense to me.