What qualifies someone to promote a student to Black Belt?

[A.R.K.]

Specifically I'm curious as to folks input as to what authority an instructor of a style/system needs/uses to promote a student to Black Belt.

Thank you for your input. :asian:

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
Specifically I'm curious as to folks input as to what authority an instructor of a style/system needs/uses to promote a student to Black Belt.

Thank you for your input. :asian:

In one of the systems I train, you can promote people to 1 rank below you. So, at 2nd Dan, I can promote people up to 1st Dan.

I think that's pretty standard. Of course, the parameters are usually set by the head of the system/school. And they may differ from one person to the next (i.e.: the head instructor may tell Black Belt A that he can promote others to BB, but he may tell Black Belt B that he can't promote anyone to BB). The distinction would depend on the level of trust the head instructor has for each or the level of competency he/she feels the person has for assessing another's skill.

Mike

 

[Elfan]

I think the 1 belt below if fairly common.

 

[A.R.K.]

Pesilat,

Good reply, thank you. If I understand you correctly, the head of the system/school grants those teachers underneath him, at his/her discretion, the authority to grant rank.

If I may go one step further, who gives the system/school head the authority to grant such authorization? The reason for my questions is to see if there is a general consensus along this line of thought.

Thank you again in advance [to all contributors].



:asian:

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
Pesilat,

Good reply, thank you. If I understand you correctly, the head of the system/school grants those teachers underneath him, at his/her discretion, the authority to grant rank.

If I may go one step further, who gives the system/school head the authority to grant such authorization? The reason for my questions is to see if there is a general consensus along this line of thought.

Thank you again in advance [to all contributors].

:asian:

Well, it seems only logical that the head of the system is the final word on that authorization, right?

The head of a school would then be using the authorization granted to him by his instructor, which was granted by his, etc. up to the head of the system.

Mike

 

[tarabos]

you know....to be honest i don't really know if there is an actual rule of thumb when it comes to who can promote to black. i figure pretty much you can promote one belt level below you but at least two would be better i think.

i know there are some kenpo organizations that frown upon anyone opening there own school before becoming a thrid black.

 

[A.R.K.]

Well, it seems only logical that the head of the system is the final word on that authorization, right?

Pesilat, you and I are in agreement on this point. I would like to go one step further and ponder how the system head has that authority?

What I mean is that a system/style head [founder] is really only able to become a founder a few ways. One way is to simply 'do' it without any outside resourse or infuence. Not in the training aspect but in the actual leg work so to speak. But then this means that an individual who founded the system also created his own position. In other words he promoted himself to whatever position/rank/title he choose in his system. Which means some who promoted himself now authorizes others to promote.

Or the founder receives permission from his own instructor to break off and begin a new system. But then we have a similar situation in that the instructor of system A gives the other instructor permission and 'rank' in system B which means we have an instructor promoting someone outside of his own system. Which means student A recieves rank ultimately from someone who received rank/status from someone outside the system taught.

Or the founder seeks 'peer' recognition from other system heads for their blessing but then that puts us in the same boat as the above example.

A student receives rank from an instructor who received his/her rank/authority ultimately from an individual who originally had no rank in the system and either 'ranked' himself or had someone outside the system 'rank' him. Do you follow where I'm going here? Some people feel that an instructor [Master or whatever] can't grant rank to someone outside their system...But really, on what basis is this 'against' the rules?

Some people worry about getting to the next rank rather than training for the sheer enjoyment or skills, when really it's only a piece of cloth. Some feel that one system is more legitimate than another, but they must all have had a similar starting point. These are just general thoughts that I felt inclined to put into the written word. Not aimed at anyone or any institution. I am very curious as to others 'take' on some of these things.

Are we all to some extend concerned with who grants what and in what and to who? Would anyone have a better option to consider? I thought I would throw some things out there and get others opinions on them. I do appreciate your input [everyone] and look forward to reading them. Especially if anyone has input that I haven't considered.

Very much appreciate your opinions. :asian:

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
A student receives rank from an instructor who received his/her rank/authority ultimately from an individual who originally had no rank in the system and either 'ranked' himself or had someone outside the system 'rank' him. Do you follow where I'm going here? Some people feel that an instructor [Master or whatever] can't grant rank to someone outside their system...But really, on what basis is this 'against' the rules?

Well, to me, this is common sense. A school of Optometry can't grant a doctorate in Osteopathy. And if they did, no one in the field would recognize it as legitimate.

And I think that brings up the dual nature of rankings. A person can claim to be any rank they want. And they may have legitimately earned that rank from a legitimate instructor. But their peers are going to judge them on their ability to perform, not on what color belt/sash they wear or what a piece of paper says.

You're absolutely right that, at some point, all systems were new creations. I think, though, that titles are, over time, earned or lost on the merit of actions.

Example (using generic terminology for purposes of illustration):
A person starts teaching in his back yard. His students start calling him "instructor" because he teaches them and they respect him and cherish what they learn from him.
At some point, he deems some of those students ready to go teach. It's not done on "authority" ... it's just that he feels they're at a place in their development where they'll learn more from teaching than they can learn in similar time as students.
Now, these people earn the title "instructor" from their students and, much like the title "grandfather" is earned, the head instructor becomes a "master instructor" because he's an "instructor of instructors."
This process repeats and he earns the title (through having propogated this lineage) of "grandmaster." But the title is given to him by his students and their students.

On the flip side, he starts teaching and calls himself "grandmaster." If he's good and he produces good students, then, eventually, his "progeny" will use the term respectfully. He's "earned" the title. So, by using it to begin with, he's kind of "buying it on credit." If he doesn't produce good students and a lineage (pay his "debtors") then the lineage will die and he'll be nothing more than a "legend in his own mind."

That's basically the way that I perceive it.

Some people worry about getting to the next rank rather than training for the sheer enjoyment or skills, when really it's only a piece of cloth. Some feel that one system is more legitimate than another, but they must all have had a similar starting point. These are just general thoughts that I felt inclined to put into the written word. Not aimed at anyone or any institution. I am very curious as to others 'take' on some of these things.

There are certainly those out there. Personally, the only reason I train is because I enjoy it. The day it stops being fun is the day I quit. But I expect I'll die before that happens. I have instructor level ranks in 4 systems. I didn't set out for any of them. My sole goal in training was to improve myself in some way each day. The rank came as recognition of my success at self-improvement.

Are we all to some extend concerned with who grants what and in what and to who? Would anyone have a better option to consider?

Personally, it's about honesty. I don't care what someone claims about their background. If their skill/ability seems commensurate (in my opinion) with their claims, then fine. If not, then fine. No skin off my nose either way. It will only impact how I interact with them.

Mike

 

[A.R.K.]

Some good insight here sir, I'm enjoying 'picking your brain' so to speak. I'll check back tomorrow when I have some more time. Take care

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
Some good insight here sir, I'm enjoying 'picking your brain' so to speak. I'll check back tomorrow when I have some more time. Take care

LOL. Just don't get too carried away; I don't have much brain to spare

Mike

 

[Zepp]

In the organization in which I train under, only our Grandmaster, the man who brought our style to the US and founded our organization, has the authority to award someone a black belt. It's his way of exerting quality control. He himself was promoted to 9th dan by his teacher, a respected 10th dan, in Korea almost 50 years ago. If he isn't qualified to promote someone to black, I don't think anyone is.

I honestly I have no idea though what his plan is for when he is no longer with us. I think that without him, the rules may have to change for the sake of keeping the organization together. Hopefully he sticks around for another 80 years.

Hope this adds something to this discussion.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
Pesilat, you and I are in agreement on this point. I would like to go one step further and ponder how the system head has that authority?

What I mean is that a system/style head [founder] is really only able to become a founder a few ways. One way is to simply 'do' it without any outside resourse or infuence. Not in the training aspect but in the actual leg work so to speak. But then this means that an individual who founded the system also created his own position. In other words he promoted himself to whatever position/rank/title he choose in his system. Which means some who promoted himself now authorizes others to promote.

Or the founder receives permission from his own instructor to break off and begin a new system. But then we have a similar situation in that the instructor of system A gives the other instructor permission and 'rank' in system B which means we have an instructor promoting someone outside of his own system. Which means student A recieves rank ultimately from someone who received rank/status from someone outside the system taught.

Or the founder seeks 'peer' recognition from other system heads for their blessing but then that puts us in the same boat as the above example.

A student receives rank from an instructor who received his/her rank/authority ultimately from an individual who originally had no rank in the system and either 'ranked' himself or had someone outside the system 'rank' him. Do you follow where I'm going here? Some people feel that an instructor [Master or whatever] can't grant rank to someone outside their system...But really, on what basis is this 'against' the rules?

Some people worry about getting to the next rank rather than training for the sheer enjoyment or skills, when really it's only a piece of cloth. Some feel that one system is more legitimate than another, but they must all have had a similar starting point. These are just general thoughts that I felt inclined to put into the written word. Not aimed at anyone or any institution. I am very curious as to others 'take' on some of these things.

Are we all to some extend concerned with who grants what and in what and to who? Would anyone have a better option to consider? I thought I would throw some things out there and get others opinions on them. I do appreciate your input [everyone] and look forward to reading them. Especially if anyone has input that I haven't considered.

Very much appreciate your opinions. :asian:

Interesting. I have 3 traditional instructors, all promonent, here in the USA and 2 are considered pioneers in the arts in America. It turns out that one of my instructors actually knows all the parties involved in regards to me being promoted to 5th Dan. In fact in the past he had even been his instructor at some point and he himself promoted him too.

What this is leading to is "official recognition" of my Kempo Jujitsu along with my 5th Dan in my art and full permission to teach my art along with 100% support. I am speaking of support from an established "senior" instructor. I've stated all along who my instructors are and that my goal was to have all of my instructors recognize my Kempo Jujitsu, which is coming to fruition.

 

[Crazy Chihuahua]

It's different for everyone, obviously, but in our system, a black belt can only be awarded by a panel of 5 senior black belts, chosen by the Chairman of the Board of Examiners, who is, coincidentally, my father if you care to know, though i doubt if anyone here knows him, he likes to stay in the background.
Anyway, we have a Board of Examiners and the student must be recommended by his/her school owner/instructor and pretested by another black belt.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Crazy Chihuahua
It's different for everyone, obviously, but in our system, a black belt can only be awarded by a panel of 5 senior black belts, chosen by the Chairman of the Board of Examiners, who is, coincidentally, my father if you care to know, though i doubt if anyone here knows him, he likes to stay in the background.
Anyway, we have a Board of Examiners and the student must be recommended by his/her school owner/instructor and pretested by another black belt.

Stick around my friend!

Its only a matter of time beore you will be questioned on how you can be a 2nd Dan at your age! Good Luck!

 

[Infight]

one word. randomness!

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Infight
one word. randomness!

What??

 

[Crazy Chihuahua]

It's only a matter of time before someone questions how you could become 2nd Dan at your age!

You may be right, but when they do, I'll have an answer for them, and it will go thus: "I worked hard for twelve years to become a black belt. Regardless of my age, no one can take away the blood sweat and tears that went into that rank. I was promoted to 2nd degree when our system underwent curriculum restructuring which allowed me to qualify a year early because of my knowledge. I have been blessed with a small amount of talent, and that small affinity allowed me to prepare quickly and perform to the best of my ablilty and acheive a coveted position in my art. But I earned it, this was not a hand-out."

Thank you for your concern on my behalf.

 

[A.R.K.]

Crazy Chihuahua,

Congradulations

 

[Crazy Chihuahua]

Thank you, I appreciate the support.

 

[A.R.K.]

Crazy Chihuahua,

I think that sums up the whole purpose of why I started this post in the first place. Ultimately all of us received rank from someone with higher rank and authority, who received rank from someone with higher rank and authority and on up the line from someone at the top of the ladder who didn't have rank or authority to begin with.

As I stated above, either the founder gave himself rank and authority or someone in another style/system gave him permission and/or recognition to have rank and authority. It had to start somewhere and flow down hill.

That is why I question anyone who takes issue with a founder/Grandmaster/Master etc that grants a rank in his/her style/system to someone outside his/her style or system based on that individuals knowledge, ability, skill, contributions to the MA's, reputation etc. Be it honorary or otherwise. The whole purpose is to recognize hard work and achievments. It's all just paper anyway that indicates to others something earned.

As they say, It's the person that wears the belt...not the belt that wears the person. If someone you respect feels you have earned the right to be a Nidan...who is anyone here to dispute that? Go git em :karate: