What is this weapon called?

[Chris Parker]

Before you write off Jedi too quickly, should I point out that Bob was actually in the Vader suit for a fair bit of the dueling in both Empire and Jedi....? George Lucas didn't want to credit him, preferring the image that it was always David Prowse (always the same guy) in the suit, but Mark Hamill didn't agree, and made a point of crediting Bob during interviews in 1983 for the Jedi press junket. He was consulted for the original film, but wasn't really the choreographer, that role he took properly for the next two.

 

[Tez3]

Ray Park trained in Northern Shaolin Kung Fu, Wushu and kickboxing. Apart from that he's from Glasgow where everyone has a natural affinity for fighting. Dave Prowse was weightlifting and body building but to us here is is always known as the Green Cross Code man.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Before you write off Jedi too quickly, should I point out that Bob was actually in the Vader suit for a fair bit of the dueling in both Empire and Jedi....? George Lucas didn't want to credit him, preferring the image that it was always David Prowse (always the same guy) in the suit, but Mark Hamill didn't agree, and made a point of crediting Bob during interviews in 1983 for the Jedi press junket. He was consulted for the original film, but wasn't really the choreographer, that role he took properly for the next two.

I was aware of that. James Earl Jones was not credited for the same reason.

Regarding Return of the Jedi, I just didn't like the choreography at all, Hamill's in particular. That and I thought that the screenplay was in the basement and George Lucas was trying way too hard to be Jim Henson, and failing miserably.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah... the biggest key to the brilliance of Empire were Irvin Kirshner and Lawrence Kasdan, really. There were a number of other things that happened which, frankly, kept Lucas at bay, and helped make it an even better film in the end anyway. When it came to Jedi, with Richard Marquand directing and George coming back more to the fore, it was a different feel again....

But one thing to remember is that the original story for Star Wars itself was basically the whole trilogy, from beginning to end. It was already blocked out that way. It was just that George Lucas realised he didn't have the time or resources to put the whole thing down, so he cut some things, moved others around (bringing the Death Star forward from the major threat at the end, meaning he had to double it up for Jedi) in order to make just the first third into a movie. The Wookiees, for instance, were meant to be what the Ewoks ended up being (the more primitive race that helps destroy the technical Empire), but as he was changing things, and didn't want to lose the idea of the Wookiee he'd created, he included Chewbacca in the original, and had to come up with a new "primitive" creature for Jedi (as he'd established Chewie, and the Wookiee's as technically minded). Hence, Ewoks.

Really, the big problem was that he had the end of the story, but now had to replace everything he'd already stolen for earlier films, which gave it more of a "rushed, patchwork" feel compared to the first two.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But one thing to remember is that the original story for Star Wars itself was basically the whole trilogy, from beginning to end. It was already blocked out that way. It was just that George Lucas realised he didn't have the time or resources to put the whole thing down, so he cut some things, moved others around (bringing the Death Star forward from the major threat at the end, meaning he had to double it up for Jedi) in order to make just the first third into a movie. The Wookiees, for instance, were meant to be what the Ewoks ended up being (the more primitive race that helps destroy the technical Empire), but as he was changing things, and didn't want to lose the idea of the Wookiee he'd created, he included Chewbacca in the original, and had to come up with a new "primitive" creature for Jedi (as he'd established Chewie, and the Wookiee's as technically minded). Hence, Ewoks.

The same sort of thing happened in Superman. The reversal of time was originally the ending of Superman II, and most of Superman II had been filmed with most of Superman, but because of budget constraints and scheduling, not to mention that the producers hated the director, the ending from Superman II became the ending of Superman and director Richard Donner was let go by the producers, who replaced him with Richard Lester, which gave II a very different feel.

All of the scenes with Superman's Kryptonian mom, Lara, had already been shot with Marlon Brando as Jor-El, but when it came time to release the second film, Brando wanted $11,000,000 dollars for the use of the footage. Unable to meet such a demand in 1980, they reshot the scenes with Lara instead, as the actress who had played her in the first movie was significantly less expensive than Brando.

Still, Lucas could have used the wookies instead of the ewoks. The ewoks were just plain stupid, as was the proliferation of muppets (the entire band at Jabba's hideout were very obviously puppets).

 

[Josh Oakley]

Wow. When you guys go off topic, you go HARDCORE.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Folks, lets get back to the main topic eh?
Thanks.

 

[puunui]

I don't know if this is off topic, but is naginata only for women? There is a female instructor of naginata here and she teaches men, but I believe she said that it is a weapon mainly for females.

 

[Sanke]

I don't know if this is off topic, but is naginata only for women? There is a female instructor of naginata here and she teaches men, but I believe she said that it is a weapon mainly for females.

There is one form of Naginata currently practiced which has mostly women practitioners,that being atarashi Naginata, which is similar to kendo.
This trend, and the idea of it being a women's weapon, I believe comes from the later periods of feudal Japan, as it is typically easier to use against a swordsman for defending homes and such IIRC (though that may be completely wrong).
But it was by no means always a women's weapon, and saw prominent battlefield use for a time, before the spear became popular.
Many Koryu systems still teach Naginata-jutsu today, which are practiced by both men and women. Just ask Diane and Meik Skoss


Sanke on the move.

 

[Sanke]

Oh, and to be more on topic...
I agree that there isn't really any point in going into much more than the basics of a weapon when considering choreography.
Most people watching will get the gist of what you're showing pretty quickly, and there's not much point catering to those who know how to use the weapon. Lets face it, that's a minority at best, and what we like to see just isn't that impressive untill you know what you're looking at.
Movie-fighting stuff is much more interesting for your average action flick


Sanke on the move.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Wow. When you guys go off topic, you go HARDCORE.

Darn right! Because we're men, MANLY men!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't know if this is off topic, but is naginata only for women? There is a female instructor of naginata here and she teaches men, but I believe she said that it is a weapon mainly for females.

There is one form of Naginata currently practiced which has mostly women practitioners,that being atarashi Naginata, which is similar to kendo.
This trend, and the idea of it being a women's weapon, I believe comes from the later periods of feudal Japan, as it is typically easier to use against a swordsman for defending homes and such IIRC (though that may be completely wrong).
But it was by no means always a women's weapon, and saw prominent battlefield use for a time, before the spear became popular.
Many Koryu systems still teach Naginata-jutsu today, which are practiced by both men and women. Just ask Diane and Meik Skoss


Sanke on the move.

Took the words right out of my keyboard!

 

[Chris Parker]

Folks, lets get back to the main topic eh?
Thanks.

Er, Bob? Not that I'm questioning things at all, your word being the last and final tome that all shall hear and adhere to, but, uh, if the original topic is a fantasy weapon, isn't fantasy movie choreography still fairly on topic? We were trying...

Okay, back to the fun stuff.

I don't know if this is off topic, but is naginata only for women? There is a female instructor of naginata here and she teaches men, but I believe she said that it is a weapon mainly for females.

There is one form of Naginata currently practiced which has mostly women practitioners,that being atarashi Naginata, which is similar to kendo.
This trend, and the idea of it being a women's weapon, I believe comes from the later periods of feudal Japan, as it is typically easier to use against a swordsman for defending homes and such IIRC (though that may be completely wrong).
But it was by no means always a women's weapon, and saw prominent battlefield use for a time, before the spear became popular.
Many Koryu systems still teach Naginata-jutsu today, which are practiced by both men and women. Just ask Diane and Meik Skoss


Sanke on the move.

Hmm. A bit more info, perhaps.

Took the words right out of my keyboard!

I'll add a few, then.


Right.

Naginata was the most prominent battlefield polearm for the Kamakura period through most of the Ashikaga period (basically from the late 12th Century through to the mid 15th). Many Ryu-ha which date from this period, or even a bit later deal with battlefield usage, which was not, obviously, a "women's only" weapon. Schools that have Naginata from battlefield ideas include Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, Kukishin Ryu (actually, Naginata was the original primary weapon of the Kukishin Ryu), Higo Ko-Ryu, Chokugen Ryu (which, like Katori Shinto Ryu, uses a very large, or O Naginata), Jikishinkage Ryu, Tendo Ryu, Toda-ha Budo Ryu, Takenouchi Ryu, Yoshin Ryu, and more.

The idea of Naginata being "woman's weapon" isn't necessarily supported by history. Although it was relatively common for women of samurai families (mostly Daimyo families, as during the Edo period there was an edict which forced Daimyo's to maintain two households, one in their domain, and another in Edo, and they would alternate which they lived in, with the rest of their families in the other. This left the women of the household to assist with it's defence) to keep Naginata around, as it provided a substantial reach advantage over a sword, as well as being capable of very powerful actions and cuts, without requiring a lot of muscle. However, it still remained, as much as ever, a weapon that men studied and trained with as well.

Where it really gets confusing is when arts changed their approach as time went on. Tendo Ryu, Jikishinkage Ryu, Toda-ha Buko Ryu, and Yoshin Ryu have all had female headmasters during the last few generations (except Toda-ha Budo Ryu, who have recently moved into their 20th Generation with a male headmaster, Nakamura Yoiichi, who took over from Nitta Suzuo [in accordance with Toda-ha Buko Ryu tradition, Nitta Sensei "masculinised" her surname]). Schools such as Yoshin Ryu have even changed their approach to the point of formulating their methods to be performed wearing a particular form of (female) Kimono. So, while a system such as Yoshin Ryu traces itself back to Akiyama Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu, a particularly striking heavy art, the focus of the Naginata section has become female-centric (the rest of the Ryu aren't extant anymore, with Yoshin Ryu Naginatajutsu splitting from the main Yoshin line quite a while back.

Having a female head, though, didn't make a Naginata system female-centric, with Toda-ha Buko Ryu being a major example. This Ryu uses a large, heavy Naginata, and is very much a battle-use system. Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu also uses a very large Naginata (known as an O Naginata), and in the last generation, one of the best known practitioners and teachers of Katori Shinto Ryu Naginata was Kikue Ito, a female instructor who was instrumental in helping in the origin of Atarashii Naginata. Additionally, a number of folk heroes of female warriors were associated with Naginata (most likely with stories originating in the Edo period), such as Tomoe, and Itagaki. It may also be noted that it was not necessarily uncommon for samurai women to be right alongside the men on the battlefield, so a distinction between "male weapons" and "female weapons" from a battlefield perspective can be a rather artificial one.

Finally, after World War II, when trying to rebuild the culture of Japan after the American constitution initially outlawed all martial arts, there was a national push to put martial arts in the schools, including Judo and Kendo (with many Universities featuring Karate and/or Aikido as well). Kikue Ito, along with representatives of Tendo Ryu, Jikishinkage Ryu, Yoshin Ryu etc, created the new, modern form of Atarashii (pretty literally "new") Naginata Do, based on similar sporting rules to modern Kendo, and featuring similar armour, with the addition of shin guards (sune), and the legs now being viable targets (sune ate), as well as a range of simplified kata performed with wooden naginata. Atarashii Naginata Do was put forth as a sporting curriculum for the female student body, where the men would train in Kendo. This lead to the event of Naginata versus Kendo tournaments, which are most dominantly won by the girls with the Naginata.

So, all in all, the history of the Naginata has be rather varied, with many different Ryu having different focus'. The idea of Naginata being a "women's weapon" is really a more modern one, starting in the Edo period, and having a larger push post WWII. Which means, really, that the answer is "yes and no". Simple, yeah?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Just seemed like it was heading into the 'which superhero has the best cape' direction and not into the weapon stuff. Hey, I gotta nudge something occasionally to stay in practice.


As to needing a deeper knowledge, I'll disagree. I can show you how to do most of the sword fights from Army of Darkness in about 10 minutes using FMA stuff. Heck, I did some seminars on it for cosplayers a few years back.

 

[Chris Parker]

What can I say, polearms are tricky...

 

[puunui]

So, all in all, the history of the Naginata has be rather varied, with many different Ryu having different focus'. The idea of Naginata being a "women's weapon" is really a more modern one, starting in the Edo period, and having a larger push post WWII. Which means, really, that the answer is "yes and no". Simple, yeah?

I understand your historical perspective and appreciate you taking the time to write it out. But is the naginata considered a predominantly female weapon, today?

 

[Blindside]

To the original poster, you might find some of the longer weapon material from jogo de pau useful for an idea on choreography.

 

[Sanke]

Hmm. A bit more info, perhaps.

And here I was thinking I'd beaten you to the punch for once...

Thanks for expanding on it!

 

[Josh Oakley]

To the OP, you would have better luck searching through Chinese polearms for a weapon similar to the one you show in the game. I have seen a couple that look a lot like yours.

Unfortunately I just can't remember the NAMES!

The only guy I know who might be able to shed some light on it is Jerry Cook, who I think is in Arizona, though I am sure there are others.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[Chris Parker]

I understand your historical perspective and appreciate you taking the time to write it out. But is the naginata considered a predominantly female weapon, today?

That was kinda the point of all that historical rambling, really. The answer is yes and no. It depends on which Naginata system you're looking at, and, more frustratingly, where you are learning it. For instance Atarashii Naginata in Japan is considered part of female students physical education at high schools, and as such, is considered a female weapon, but here in Australia, as well as most of Europe, the art is dominated by men. So not there. Then you have Toda-ha Buko Ryu, which, until the current headmaster, has gone through a succession of female heads over the last few generations, it is not considered a "female" weapon, as it is very much a large, battlefield weapon. Yoshin Ryu started as a male-dominated system, but the off-shoot that has become Yoshin Ryu Naginatajutsu has become a female-orientated system, and as such, is considered a female weapon. Katori Shinto Ryu, not in the slightest. All these systems are currently taught, so they can all be seen as having a stake in whether or not the naginata is considered a "female" weapon. It comes down to which system you're referring to.

To give some idea of the range of Naginata systems, here are some clips:

Toda-ha Buko Ryu Yari Awase (against spear) performed by Meik Skoss (Uchidachi/Yari) and Dianne Skoss (Shidachi/Naginata). Battlefield (not female) system.

Yoshin Ryu Naginatajutsu (wearing furisode kimono). Female-focused system.

Chokugen Ryu Naginatajutsu (O Naginatajutsu, very big naginata). Battlefield system.

Jikishinkage Ryu Naginatajutsu. Formerly battlefield, now female-focused.

Tendo Ryu Naginatajutsu. Again, currently a female-orientated system.

Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu Naginatajutsu. Battlefield system.

Atarashii Naginata kata. Modern, female orientated (although not necessarily outside of Japan).

Modern (Atarashii) Naginata competition. Female focused (again, not necessarily outside of Japan).

So really, yes and no. It depends.

To the OP, you would have better luck searching through Chinese polearms for a weapon similar to the one you show in the game. I have seen a couple that look a lot like yours.

Unfortunately I just can't remember the NAMES!

The only guy I know who might be able to shed some light on it is Jerry Cook, who I think is in Arizona, though I am sure there are others.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

You're probably thinking of things like the Kwan Dao.