What is Self Defense? (Kenpo-Jiu Jitsu)

[Ray]

I was much happier just working out, practicing and learning kenpo than I ever have been trying to figure out the factual history.

As far as the book "What is Self Defense" when I looked the images on Tracys web site and compared them to the pictures in "Kenpo Karate, Law of the Fist and the Empty Hand" by Parker; or to any other book that tries to portray action with pictures; they all fail.

Looking at Mitose's "#4 countering LEFT punch" shows a picture and verbiage for a RIGHT punch. It has way too many (foot) steps in it for my taste. And the verbiage that says "your hand should be clenched into a fist and held lightly against your waist, ready for the next move" doesn't make any sense. You might hold your fists at your sides when doing sets or forms, but who fights/spars like that? Did anyone ever fight like that (and succeed)?

You can't (maybe you can, but I can't) learn MA from a book. I can review notes that I've made over the years and it helps to remember what I've already learned. I suppose you could look at a book and raise ideas that could be tried out; but only after you already have sufficient knowledge/expertise to mentally turn the photos into movies.

You could take the example, #4 and say, with a few more strikes and a few less (foot) steps it could resemble "five swords," but it doesn't as presented.

Back in the mid 80s when I started at kenpo, people used to tell me that kenpo was full of politics. Back then I was too busy to listen to them. But kenpo certainly seems political today from what I see.

I've thought about choosing an organization to join; or trying to find someone to continuing learning from; but from discussions like this thread it all seems futile.

 

[Danjo]

GAB,

I am looking eagerly forward to the secrets that you and Juchnik share together between you. The more specific the info on what he actually claims to have learned from Mitose, the better. When you post it, please, please, please do so in a clear and coherent manner. Too often it seems as though you type too fast and that causes what you write to sound as if they were written by Tonto, Frankenstein, or Johnny Weismuller's Tarzan. So, YES, please give us details about what you have. If Mitose is not getting a fair shake, and he really had a lot more to contribute, then let us know specifically what it was. Clearly it should be able to be communicated via writing given that actual training was not allowed in prison and therefore whatever Juchnik got must have been verbally transmitted. Thanks again.

 

[Karazenpo]

I was much happier just working out, practicing and learning kenpo than I ever have been trying to figure out the factual history.

As far as the book "What is Self Defense" when I looked the images on Tracys web site and compared them to the pictures in "Kenpo Karate, Law of the Fist and the Empty Hand" by Parker; or to any other book that tries to portray action with pictures; they all fail.

Looking at Mitose's "#4 countering LEFT punch" shows a picture and verbiage for a RIGHT punch. It has way too many (foot) steps in it for my taste. And the verbiage that says "your hand should be clenched into a fist and held lightly against your waist, ready for the next move" doesn't make any sense. You might hold your fists at your sides when doing sets or forms, but who fights/spars like that? Did anyone ever fight like that (and succeed)?

You can't (maybe you can, but I can't) learn MA from a book. I can review notes that I've made over the years and it helps to remember what I've already learned. I suppose you could look at a book and raise ideas that could be tried out; but only after you already have sufficient knowledge/expertise to mentally turn the photos into movies.

You could take the example, #4 and say, with a few more strikes and a few less (foot) steps it could resemble "five swords," but it doesn't as presented.

Back in the mid 80s when I started at kenpo, people used to tell me that kenpo was full of politics. Back then I was too busy to listen to them. But kenpo certainly seems political today from what I see.

I've thought about choosing an organization to join; or trying to find someone to continuing learning from; but from discussions like this thread it all seems futile.

Yes Ray, I understand your point but Kenpo was in a state of evolution even during Mr. Parker's first book (1960). What many of us see are the rudiments, the basic framework or 'core' of the techniques. My Tracy Kenpo brothers on the San Jose forum have seen the same thing in their techniques in reference to Mitose's. I received a pm from a nice American Kenpo lady from the east coast who was comparing the woman & girls self defense of Mitose's book with a women's self defense book by Mr. Parker and began to see similiarities of techniques. Coincidence you may say, maybe, some may even say there's a connection to all general self defense techniques in all martial arts but since Mitose was Chow's instructor and Chow was Emperado's/Parker's and Parker's was Tracy's then why is it not so hard to believe it's simply the evolution of what Mitose taught. Seems a logical conclusion whether someone likes the man or not. I don't believe Parker, Emperado, Chow just made up their stuff from scratch, I don't buy it no matter how talented they are simply because there common denominator was James Mitose as much as some wish to distance themselves from that it is nevertheless a fact! With respect, Prof. Joe

 

[kelly keltner]

Wasn't it said somewhere that the old masters taught wrong on purpose?

kell

 

[Danjo]

Wasn't it said somewhere that the old masters taught wrong on purpose?

kell

That would make them deceitful liars who perpetuated fraud to their students.

 

[Ray]

...but since Mitose was Chow's instructor and Chow was Emperado's/Parker's and Parker's was Tracy's then why is it not so hard to believe it's simply the evolution of what Mitose taught. Seems a logical conclusion...

I didn't say I didn't believe it. I didn't indicate which line I believe.

..I don't believe Parker, Emperado, Chow just made up their stuff from scratch...

Somewhere in the past someone did.

...common denominator was James Mitose as much as some wish to distance themselves from...

Certainly, Mitose figures in the history and always will. Just how he really fits in, I may never decide. I've seen allusions that he was a WWII spy for the US, and so on...I've seen just as many sources says that he was a fraud. I've seen statements supposedly from Chow and Parker discounting him. And I've seen others idolize the man.

 

[Ray]

Wasn't it said somewhere that the old masters taught wrong on purpose?

Then we could save a lot of trouble and money by going to someone who teaches wrong but thinks they teach right?

 

[Danjo]

Wasn't it said somewhere that the old masters taught wrong on purpose?

kell

Listen, I could understand someone doing like the Gracies did. they would offer a 40 lesson self defense course. If you wanted to train after that, they taught you the whole system. You didn't get rank for the self defense, but I think you got a certificate of completion. But just teaching false stuff is wrong.

 

[John Bishop]

Coincidence you may say, maybe, some may even say there's a connection to all general self defense techniques in all martial arts but since Mitose was Chow's instructor and Chow was Emperado's/Parker's and Parker's was Tracy's then why is it not so hard to believe it's simply the evolution of what Mitose taught. Seems a logical conclusion whether someone likes the man or not. I don't believe Parker, Emperado, Chow just made up their stuff from scratch, I don't buy it no matter how talented they are simply because there common denominator was James Mitose as much as some wish to distance themselves from that it is nevertheless a fact! With respect, Prof. Joe

Mitose only claimed one lineage, system, and line of instructors.

Prof. Chow trained in Kenpo, judo, jujitsu, boxing, and kung fu. James Mitose was only 1 of his instructors.

Mr. Parker trained under Chow, and also borrowed from many Chinese instructors in California. James Mitose was the instructor of only 1 of his instructors.

I can't speak for Kara-ho Kenpo, or American Kenpo, but:
Kajukenbo, and all it's sub-systems (Karazenpo, Kenkabo, Ken-ka Kung Fu, CHA-3 Kenpo, Shaolin Kempo, etc.) share a lineage of 5 founders with 5 distinct systems, and techniques from seven systems. Kenpo being only one of the 7.
So in Kajukenbo and it's off-shoots, James Mitose is no more a "common denominator" then: William Chow, Henry Okizaki, Sig Kufferath, Sam Luke, Bing Fai Lau, T. Inouye, J. Rhee, Alfredo Peralta, Lau Bun, or Wong Kok Fut.

In the Karazenpo off-shoots, add the 5 Kajukenbo founders, Joe Emperado, Marino Tiwanak, Woodrow McCandless, John Leoning, Sonny Gascon, Walter Godin, and a few more instructors.

 

[Mekosho]

Am just curious...am sure someone can explain this to me though...but I OFTEN here that B. Juchnik could never have been taught actual techniques while visiting Mitose in prison as that was not allowed...all he could do was LISTEN as Mitose described the techniques...If that is the case, I have to agree, yes, it makes one wonder just how much could have really been taught...BUT...from what I understand, Hanshi met Mitose thru a friend who worked at the prison as a guard...Guru Santana!!! Now lets see...is it totally inconcievable that one could look the "other way" as various ummm, physical activities took place? I mean after all, some very high power crime bosses thru out history still ran their various families from prison...drugs are a big problem in the prison system as well, I am fairly sure thay are against the rules as well...so, to use that one rule as a basis to declare physical actions where NEVER taught is just plain ridiculous...are we really that niave?

 

[John Bishop]

...from what I understand, Hanshi met Mitose thru a friend who worked at the prison as a guard...Guru Santana!!! Now lets see...is it totally inconcievable that one could look the "other way" as various ummm, physical activities took place? ?

Sure you could, if you wanted to lose your job and career. And of course if you were the only guard present everytime these visits took place.

I mean after all, some very high power crime bosses thru out history still ran their various families from prison...drugs are a big problem in the prison system as well, I am fairly sure thay are against the rules as well...so, to use that one rule as a basis to declare physical actions where NEVER taught is just plain ridiculous...are we really that niave?

Yes, these crime bosses did and still do pay off corrupt guards and prison officials.
And I don't think it is niave to think that Mr. Santana is a honest guard, who wouldn't turn his back to violations of prison policies.

 

[Mekosho]

LOL! You are absolutly right Mr. Bishop...Guru Santana...or was it just george the struggling guard back then? Is far to honorable a person to have ever bent the rules...see what I am saying..times change, people change...
Again, I just feel it is totally naive to stand on the "it was against the rules" line 100%...
I am sure you yourself are a very honorable person as well Mr. Bishop...but is it likely that you NEVER break a rule? Highly doubtful! Ever get a speeding ticket?
I mean, that prob. seems very minor to you, a speeding ticket...heck, we have all had em from time to time...prob. seems about as minor as guard who is in the martial arts looking the other way when fellow martial artist want to share a move or two!

 

[Karazenpo]

John stated: Prof. Chow trained in Kenpo, judo, jujitsu, boxing, and kung fu. James Mitose was only 1 of his instructors.

John, this is what I have a hard time swallowing. Everyone on this forum is always crying about paper. What paper does Chow have that he studied judo, jujistu, boxing and kung fu. Hey, when I was 16 I sat in on some of Walter Matson's classes on Uechi ryu in Framingham, Ma., should I now declare myself as having studied Uechi ryu? Who was his boxing instructor? Was Chow a 'Golden Gloves? an amatuer maybe? Was his instructor? What experience? Who was his jujitsu instructor who certified him?, did Okazaki ? Who was his judo instructor? Sonny Gascon received a first level certification from Tagami. Has it yet been proven his father really knew kung fu even though his brothers never attested to that fact? What style kung fu? from what instructor? Here's my point, Mitose's claims aren't any more elusive than others but because of his criminal background some seem to discount everything. Do I blame you guys, no, I don't, because it's like the little boy who cried wolf one too many times, now no one believes him but that's still no way to conduct an investigation. We have to stay open minded. With respect, "Joe"

 

[Karazenpo]

I didn't say I didn't believe it. I didn't indicate which line I believe.

Somewhere in the past someone did.

Certainly, Mitose figures in the history and always will. Just how he really fits in, I may never decide. I've seen allusions that he was a WWII spy for the US, and so on...I've seen just as many sources says that he was a fraud. I've seen statements supposedly from Chow and Parker discounting him. And I've seen others idolize the man.

Yes Ray, someone some where in the past did but it wasn't Chow, Emperado or Parker, that's my point. You may have seen accounts of Parker discounting him but he also said many good things about him. I spoke of this with Doc. It was on a column that Ed Parker had in the 80's in Black Belt magazine, if I have to look it up I have the date and volume for I still have the mag. Parker had nothing to say but good things about Mitose, check it out. He seems like my Massachusetts senator who ran for president, John Kerry, " which way the winds blowing". The rest I totally agree with you. Respectfully, Joe

 

[John Bishop]

John stated: Prof. Chow trained in Kenpo, judo, jujitsu, boxing, and kung fu. James Mitose was only 1 of his instructors.

John, this is what I have a hard time swallowing. Everyone on this forum is always crying about paper. What paper does Chow have that he studied judo, jujistu, boxing and kung fu. Hey, when I was 16 I sat in on some of Walter Matson's classes on Uechi ryu in Framingham, Ma., should I now declare myself as having studied Uechi ryu? Who was his boxing instructor? Was Chow a 'Golden Gloves? an amatuer maybe? Was his instructor? What experience? Who was his jujitsu instructor who certified him?, did Okazaki ? Who was his judo instructor? Sonny Gascon received a first level certification from Tagami. Has it yet been proven his father really knew kung fu even though his brothers never attested to that fact? What style kung fu? from what instructor? Here's my point, Mitose's claims aren't any more elusive than others but because of his criminal background some seem to discount everything. Do I blame you guys, no, I don't, because it's like the little boy who cried wolf one too many times, now no one believes him but that's still no way to conduct an investigation. We have to stay open minded. With respect, "Joe"

Well I can't say who all his instructors were. Especially his boxing instructor. His judo and jujitsu instructor was his brother John Chow-Hoon.
He claims his father taught him kung fu.
I was somewhat in doubt of that until I came into possession of a old 1960's video (converted from 8mm) last month. It was of tournaments in northern California that Aleju Reyes students particapated in.
In this video is Prof. Chow doing a demonstration at a tournament. Contrary to everything I've heard in the past, there is Prof. Chow, doing a dynamic tension Hung Gar form. So it's obvious Prof. Chow did do some kata. And apparently he did at least know some Hung Gar.
As soon as I can get permission from the owner of this video, I will put it on my website with the other Prof. Chow clip.
I think there are other films of this demonstration, because Rob Peladeau told me his father "Wilfred" has a similar film. Wilfred Peladeau was Bill Chun Sr's first black belt, and he would drive Prof. Chow around whenever he visited Chun in No. California.

 

[Karazenpo]

Thank you, John, a very fair and open minded response. We're going to need that if we're going to get anywhere on this topic.

 

[kelly keltner]

That would make them deceitful liars who perpetuated fraud to their students.

yep cause we all know martial artists are all choir boys.

kell

 

[kelly keltner]

Then we could save a lot of trouble and money by going to someone who teaches wrong but thinks they teach right?

very good, now yer gettin it.

kelly

 

[kelly keltner]

Moderator's Suggestion:

We have been having a excellent discussion on the topic of James Mitose's first book.
Let's please try to stay on this topic.
Please refrain from making snide remarks toward each other.
Discussions of religion (other then those mentioned in the book), or somebody's actual height (unless it's in reference to illustrations in the book), have nothing to do with this topic.

Nobody has to agreed with everyone, so if you have something to contribute to the discussion, or a well thought out question, please post it.
A short insult here and there contribute's absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Mark your calander a second time John something else we agree on.
kelly

 

[Seig]

ADMIN NOTE:

Enough with the smartass one liners.
Keep it on topic.

Seig
OPS Admin