What happened to Modern Arnis

[Dieter]

Hi everybody,

lets start with the fact, that I am an outsider.
I am from Germany and do not know so much about the FMA or Modern Arnis structure in the US.
But there is something, that makes me really wonder and a little sad:

There were 2 top Modern Arnis events with VERY popular instructors like (in no particular order): Remy Presas Jr., Demetrio Presas, Datu Kelly Worden, Sr. Master Dan Anderson, Datu Tim Hartman, myself, Datu Dieter Knüttel, Punog Guro Tom Bolden, Dr. Jermome Barber, Bram Frank and many others.
As far as I understand this is ther very elite of (western) Modern Arnis instructors/Masters, exept the fact, that the whole IMAF fractions (all 3, Shea, Delaney and IMAF Philippines) were not present.

Now the Professor hat many thousand students, perhaps even some 10 thousands of students. And then, with this hype created about the Modern Arnis Symposium in Buffalo and the Marppio event in Tacoma, there were together in both events participating LESS THAN 100 SUDENTS!?!
Even though, the people that were there had a great time, this number of participants is very disappointing.

Just let me ask: What happened to the Modern Arnis?

Was it of too short notice? No
Were the camps too expensive? I don´t know, because I cannot judge the american market on that.
Were there not enough qualified instructors teaching? No
Are there only a few Modern Arnis students left? I don´t know

According to Tom Bolden and Dr. Jerome Barber, the gathering of the eagles, a similar Kempo event, recently had 800 participants.
We in Germany had 400 on our FMA Festival last year (ok, not only Modern Arnis, but there are by far not so many FMA practitioners in Europe than in the US).

So why were there so few Modern Arnis people participating at these 2 , looking at the instructors, extremly interesting and top of the list events?

Don´t get me wrong, I don´t want to start a flaming war whose fault it is or he has done this and the other has done that.
I would just like to discuss on a sincere, honest level, what happened there and what could be done in the future, to bring together more people in a future Modern Arnis event.

In other words: Why did YOU did not go there? And I am not talking about personal problems like: I had to work and my sister married. Fair enough, but I am sure, the same reasons were there for many Kempo people, still there were 800 gathering.

Didn´t you go because the events were too far away from your place?
Was it too expencive?
Was it bothering you, that there were 2 events at the same time?
Did you have an issue going on with an instructor or organizer?
Didn´t you want to support an event with .... as an instructor/organizer?
etc.

I am not looking for names and explanation for the issues here, only for facts like: I did not go because I did not like one insturctor there or something like that. Please don´t get down to a personal level. This is not what I intend with this thread.

And what could be done. that YOU, who were not there, come next time?

Let us make this a constructive discussion, that may help to produce better turnout for fututre Modern Arnis events.



Best regards from Germany and hoping for a lively, sincere discussion.


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

 

[dearnis.com]

Hello Dieter.
Very fair, and I think constructive, questions. Why did I not attend? Several factors.
1) Time off. I am a full time police officer with very heavy on call requirements. I am also, by far, the least senior in my unit (5 years service vs. 16 for the next "youngest"), so getting my on call covered is not easy.
1a) we are also limited to no more than 8 days off between may and september.
2) Cost. High. And the first bracket of discount pricing expired before I could even submit leave requests for the summer.
3) Cost/conflicts. I can only justify so many events per year. I attended the WMAA camp in May, and am hosting a camp in October. I just returned from the Sayoc Kali camp in July. I am planning on attending Myrlino's event in Seattle in September. This doesn't count 15+ single day events I will attend through the year. You can see the expenses adding up.
4) Organizations- not an issue. I am a representative of the WMAA, but have always been happy to play with anyone.
We might also consider location: Buffalo is not exactly a central location. Also Modern Arnis in the US has always been very regional in nature.
Also, to revisit costs. I teach a college club of about 25 committed students and have been able to turn up with as many as 20 at some events. But that all turns on the promoter being able to work with me on costs; the symposium price structure was simply out of reach of most of my people. For the remainder, they have to balance the money they spend on what they get. The symposium, I'm sure, provided a nice overview of many senior instructors. I am not sure this is what lower level students are best served by though.

Lastly, I think there was a very real concern on the part of many about political and other bickering.

Chad

 

[Dieter]

Thanks for your answers Chad.
Gives me more insight and I am sure you are having a hard time getting your job and training organized. Do you have a private life too, that you have to fit in?


For all, who might also answer on this thread: My questions were merely examples for some reasons I could think of. Please don´t feel limited by the questions and answer free how you feel about your reasons.

Thank you


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

 

[progressivetactics]

My personal reason was:
1. I am very knew to Modern Arnis and still learning who and what everything is.
2. I belong to 1 org. but unsure how 'openly' I would be treated, as it is not one of the participating groups (I know now, so it is not an issue).
3. I didn't learn about it until about 4 weeks prior to the event, and it simply wasn't enough time for me as I have fallen on more financial difficulty this past couple months.

I have no idea what the cost of the event was, so that ways no part into my decision, it simply wasn't an option at this time for me.
I would be very interested in attending the next one, if available.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

If you look at the attendence of MA events throughout the US, you will find the average participation level to be within the 30-60 range. The last couple of major WMAA camps were aprox. 50-60 people, with the minors being in the 30's. (These are my estimates, not official head counts)

MARPPIO being the newest group seems to be drawing fair numbers. I'm not sure if this is due to a combination of the WMAC also being heavily involved in the same events or not.

Scheas IMAF seems to have drawn 40's-50s on their events, but I'm not 100% certain.

No info on JD.

Historically, MA events in the US the last few years have drawn 20-80 attendees. Without the 'draw' of Remy, plus the political BS, plus the economic situation, these numbers are bound to drop. Modern Arnis is also not well known in the US (I had never heard of it prior to meeting Tim), so that may also be a cause.


Regarding the Symposium: With respect to JB's promotion, it suffered from a few things.

1- Location : Buffalo is not a central location, more of an upper shoulder if you will.

2- Costs : The cost was a bit higher than that of comparable events.

3- Promotion : There was no central location to goto for information. It was scatered throughout multiple threads here and on a few other web boards. I do not recall it being listed in the major magazines though I may be wrong there. (I dont read them regularly). A simple 1-2 page website centralizing all of the information and updates would have made things easier.

4- 'Name' level of the instructors : See the Scooby Gang thread. Most of the instructors are 'unknowns' outside of small circles. The opportunity to train with a 'Presas' is more appealing to many than to train with someone who left the scene 10 years ago. Now, I'm not saying anything about the 'quality' of instruction. I'm saying that most of the instructors on the bill simply aren't 'known names'.


Why did -I- not attend? Very simple. I had a previous engagement in Toronto to do a seminar on web site design at a convention.

 

[Dieter]

See the Scooby Gang thread

Where is that?

I don´t want to draw a comparason between the 2 events. I counted 40 in saturday morning, the Marppio event was 48, so ok a few people more but no big deal. Still, for the amount of webtalk around those events and the teachers attending (known in the Modern Arnis scene, which should be large enough to get a better participation) the number of 90 people on these 2 events is not enough, becuase it were not normal seminars.

I think you were right, that there was no cantral information point, like a website or so, and only talk. perhaps one should have put the events in black belt or so. But I don´t know.

I don´t say I could do it better. I am looking merly for the reasons to learn out of this past weekend.

Thanks


Dieter

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The Scooby thread was the one where you and I did all the google searches. Its in the Modern Arnis forum.


The best way to make future events better is to look at where the past ones fell short and fix the shortcomings. I do it with websites all the time.

Gotta run, late for class. heh.:asian:

 

[Dieter]

The best way to make future events better is to look at where the past ones fell short and fix the shortcomings.

This is what I want to achieve with this thread.
Not that I will be doing the next, but it is never bad to learn out of these experiences for future events.


Regards


Dieter Knüttel

 

[Dan Anderson]

Dieter,
Two very important differences I want to point out is that 1) it is well known that you have a well structured organization with DAV in Germany while in the US, the only glue that kept many of us together was RP himself. Once he died it was like throwing confetti into a fan. I think in a few years the dust will settle and mutual support will be better. 2) The vast physical space difference between the size of Germany (which is roughly the same square mileage of my home state, Oregon) and the US plays a big part in this as well. Even RP didn't draw 400 participants in the US. As to the Gathering Of Eagles, that happened roughly 8-10 years after Ed Parker's death. We still have some healing time among the "family" before we have our own gathering of comparable magnitude.

I think it can and will occur and the Symposium was the first major step as it was the first non-specific organizational event put on. WMAA, IMAF, WMAC, MARPPIO have all put on events. Unfortunately, being put on by an organization at this time can give the impression that they are closed events. A good example of this is the first two WMAA events. Tim specifically added non-WMAA instructors to the teaching bill so as to emphasize that it was not exclusive. Still, as it was a WMAA sponsored event, many others decided not to show. I'm sure that this has been the same for the other organizations mentioned above.

Our family has some healing time left. We will get there with patience and persistance. The Symposium was the first step. Such diverse personalities as you, me, Tim, Bram, Tom getting together for such an event is a good sign. It will happen.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Cthulhu]

Datu Inocalla had a Modern Arnis seminar along with some of the MoTTs in Florida that weekend.

Cthulhu

 

[Dieter]

The vast physical space difference between the size of Germany (which is roughly the same square mileage of my home state, Oregon) and the US plays a big part in this as well.

Hi Dan,

very valid and good information. Just a short information, that we had the people coming from 10 different countries, like England, Italy, Sweden France etc. But I understand your points.

Also a valid point is the 8 - 10 years since Ed Parkers death. OK. You see, I am only seeking information.

I have started the same thread at Datu Kellys Forum and he also wrote an interesting comment.


Thanks Dan and till soon


Dieter

 

[dearnis.com]

Gives me more insight and I am sure you are having a hard time getting your job and training organized. Do you have a private life too, that you have to fit in

Not any more. Between training, 12+ hour days, call outs in the middle of the night, etc. my private life is largely a thing of the past.

However, my ex and I have a nice house on the market if anyone is shopping in north wilmington.

 

[Cruentus]

1. I don't know what it is like in Germany/Europe, or how competitive it is over there.

Here in the states, people are very competive. This, to me, is not a problem. It is o.k. to get on the floor and have a little friendly competition, whether it is through instruction, or semi-sparring. Everyone goes out for a beer afterwards, and we all remain friends.

Problem is, not many people share my above opinion. Everyone wants to be the best, but unfortunatily, bot everyone can be. Many people in the US Modern Arnis world want people to think that "they are the best," but they won't get on the floor next to another instructor for fear of being "shown up." They don't like to cross train either, for fear of having their illusions of "top dog" shattered. Some would rather be the biggest fish in their own fishtank, rather then explore the ocean.

This truth will hurt many, as it often does. What this behavior and fear causes is an inability for people to gather together, so we end up very segmented.

2. In regards to this sympo., the instructors weren't paid. This is no problem for me, it only costed me a few hours drive and my time. However, for career martial artists, I see this as a huge problem. Why the hell would MARPPIO or Worden or Shashir spend the $$ to come all the way over here for a seminar that they weren't getting paid for? When doing a big event like this, cost becomes an issue. for instructors and students alike. I know that you, Dan Anderson, some people from Washington State and Vancover Canada, and others made the sacrifice. Many others could not, however, and we need to respect that in the same way that I would expect people to respect me for not having been able to take trip out to California or Washington State to train as of yet.

This distance/cost problem unfortunatily leads to lesser #'s for events also. It is my understanding from friends that I have who are in Europe, you can mass-transit accrossed the entire contenent for only a fraction of the cost of travelling accross the US. This is a major factor.

3. There are a lot of people in our system, unfortunatily, who will smile at your face, then stab you in the back. They did this to each other when Remy was alive (some did this to Remy himself), but Professor was the glue to hold the mess together. Without him we are all broken up.

The biggest problem with this backstabbing and underhanding is that it has gone on "unchallanged" for too long. Now, since RP's passing, all kinds of ballyhoo is coming out of the woodwork. It was always there, it was just kept under raps. The problem with "keeping the infighting under rapps" is that nothing outwardly challanges these poor practices. The problem with exposing these poor practices is it takes a lot of "flame wars" to do so, and outsiders are often turned off.

So you see, it is a double edged sword, or a damned if you do/damned if you don't scenario.

I think actually exposing piss poor business practices, and unethical behavior is the only way to handle it. This is the only way to correct the behavior, so that our fellow modern arnis players will adopt a better way of handling and conducting themselves.

Unfortunatily, it'll probably be a few years more before all this stuff fully unwinds. In the mean time, there are those who are genuinly turned off by some of the B.S., so they have been staying away.

4. There are those who choose to stay independent for a very good reason. They are sick and tired of #3, and #1, so they stay away. They are just tired of the mess, and want to do there own thing. It will take a long time before these people decide to get involved in a Modern Arnis "gathering."

Here are a few things that might help answer the question.

Very good question, indeed, Datu Dieter!

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

I told Mr. Hartman I would attend if he wanted me there but he said that that wasn't necessary. I have been back to Buffalo for the WMAA Camp already and will be back again to train with Mr. Hartman and possibly yet again for a family visit so making an additional trip would have been really piling it on.

Beyond that, I expected there to be more "instructor melt" given such issues as the lack of compensation for instructors and that concerned me. Indeed, several of the people I would have liked to have seen canceled at some point (e.g. Rocky, just to name one). I do regret missing Mr. Knuttel and Mr. Frank, for example, and of course I always enjoy seeing Mr. Hartman and Mr. Anderson.

But on-target to your question, of the various scheduled instructors, it seemed to me that too many were ex-Modern Arnis people rather than Modern Arnis people. While it was certainly a gathering of people with an interest in Modern Arnis there were too many that aren't really doing Modern Arnis now, and certainly it was missing too many of the big players (IMAFs, Presas children, Mr. Worden, etc.). It would surely have been interesting to see the Filipino martial arts demonstrated there and in fact with the last-minute substitutions it seems to have taken on more of a Modern Arnis flavour but I saw too high of a "other FMA to Modern Arnis" ratio.

So, the main non-"life is busy" issues that kept me away were the expectation of significant instructor melt, and the perception that it was less of a Modern Arnis event than a Modern Arnis inspired event. I said nothing of this in the times leading to the Symposium as it was certainly a risk to take it on--Dr. Barber is to be commended for putting forth the effort--and I didn't want to be a wet blanket.

 

[Cruentus]

The event was definatily more of a FMA gathering rather then a Modern Arnis gathering.

I am not saying this to be negative, but this is just what happened given all of the Modern Arnis people who were unable to attend.

:asian:

 

[Mao]

Did you say "ballyhoo" a couple posts ago? Ballyhoo? Haven't heard that in a long time.
Dan Mc.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Mao
Did you say "ballyhoo" a couple posts ago? Ballyhoo? Haven't heard that in a long time.
Dan Mc.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

And don't forget "Tom-Foolery"!

Chip, Chip, Cheerio! Tea and crumputs anyone!

Where's Datu Hoffman?

 

[Mark Lynn]

Heres is my 2 cents FWIW

I believe there are several different reasons for the lack of participation in seminars such as this.

1) SM Dan Anderson brought up the point of size of the country between Germany and the USA. Because of the size of the country (USA) martial arts here are a dime a dozen. On any given weekend there are seminars offered all over the place by instructors of all different skill levels and rank levels in any number of different martial arts.

I remember driving to Oklahoma city (from Waco TX) to go to a Thaiboxing seminar in 1985 or so cause it was the closest place to see it (6 hour drive) now in the Dallas/Ft Worth area there are several schools that teach it and they will (have in the past) bring in instructors to teach it in seminars as well.

Where there were hardly any FMA type schools back then (in this area), now there are several around, and they bring in their instructors. All of this dilutes the attendance at seminars, since they are so common now.

2) Quality of the instructors and students.

3) Quality of the systems taught.

4) Political: lets face it some people won't go to a seminar of a different system or a different instructor, because their system is best so why go. Or well I won't go see this person or that because I support so and so.

5) Expense: One of the best vaules in a seminar I had was to go to Vancuover Can. to attend a GM Toboada seminar. It cost $60 Can. $ and they had a private workout on Friday night, all day seminar Sat. and I was invited to attend a test the following day. By US dollars at the time I think it was $45.00 that's less then some pay for a four hour seminar.

Last year we had GM E. Presas at a school here, some people got to attend it for under $100.00 ($80-90) for two full days of training. (I think $110 was the full price) However we broke even and didn't lose anything and every one had a great time.

But when you start trying to charge the same prices that GM Remy did then I think you start pricing yourself out of the market when you are not GM Remy. And naturally attendance starts falling.

And I would like to interject something here on the Symposium. I didn't think the cost was to much (at least the opening price) for a three day seminar. In fact I thought it was quite reasonable compared to other events. However with the instructors canceling etc. etc. I can see how people stayed away towards the end. However I saw who I wanted to see with the exception of Rocky, I saw who I came to see and so for me it was a good value. (This gets back to quality of instructors at the events.)

6) Location and other costs: Here again the Symposium being held where it was when they held it as an example. Buffalo was at the height of tourist season planes were pretty full getting there and getting back, therefore if you were like me and waited to try and get a ticket I was quoted over $600 for a short flight on a commuter jet from Chicago. Several of the hotels that I tried to stay at where booked solid. This things factor in who will attend as well. Since these costs can push the seminar cost over the edge of will a person attend or not.

I have attended camps/ weekend seminars in Modern Arnis and other FMAs every year since 95 sometimes 2-4 a year. These are just some of the things that I've seen and experienced.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

I'll make this one short

One other thing I mentioned in my previous post was quality of students, let me explain.

Datu Tim mentioned that out of Buffalo there was a very small percentage of students who take the martial arts who are in a FMA related system. And I find this pretty true every where else I've been as well.

But many students (here in the states) don't think it's important to go get some different viewpoints outside of there own little school. They are for the most part close minded.

In the past at a IMAF camp I had the pleasure of meeting Gabbi from Germany and I think a couple of her students, this time I got to meet Dieter and his student. From what I remember of this small selection of people was that they were very precise and very good, in technique, form, knowledge etc. etc.

I generally don't see that of the students here in the states, myself included. Maybe it's because many of the students here don't value what they are being taught because it is plentiful and they don't value what they are receiving. Going to see the source or the head of a system doesn't mean anything to them.

I'm not tyring to be pro- German or a$$ kisser to Dieter, I'm just wondering if the martial arts and the FMA is as prevelent over there (Europe) as it is here. And if it isn't and the person has to really go out of their way to find it or train in it. Than that might weed out the less than serious folks. And if the folks take it real serious than they would have no problem seeing the value of their training and the training opportunites that come their way.

So much for a short post
Mark

 

[Cebu West]

Hello Dieter
When you first put up this thread I wrote this down but didn't have time to get it on line until now, so some of my ideas are reflected in the statements of others on this thread.

What you ask is difficult without crossing the lines you said you were not interested in.

My name is Sal and my school, Cebu West is with the WMAA. I am also on their Advisory Board. I have hosted seminars, an instructor camp and will be CO-hosting another three day camp in October, so I am not looking at your questions as an outsider to running events. I am associated with the WMAA but speak only for myself on these issues.

To begin with, not even the Professor drew large numbers when he taught at camps in the US. Good numbers but not large. There are also camps and seminars going on all the time over here by one group or another so there is no one Big event that people feel they have to attend.

There are many of us who do Modern Arnis as a primary art, but many use it as an add on art. You know, the art within your art.

The economy and the cost of attending a camp outside your area is considerable and people have to choose where they will go.

Families play a big part in this also. Not many people can indulge themselves while leaving the wife and kids at home. My wife and kids already think I'm obsessed with Modern Arnis as it is. I would do much more than I do now, but I assume a divorce would go along with it. They already put up with a lot so I pick and choose my time away from them for my personal gratification.

Fierce loyalty to your own organization.
Tim, Chad and Myself are reaching out to other at our October camp by bringing in instructors that span Modern Arnis in some form. Past and present. We have also done this at other camps we have had. We are trying but that is not the case with everyone. There are too many closed groups as far as instructors that are offered at events.

Datu Kelly's event was more of a regional event and I don't believe they were going for a nationally attended crowd as was the Symposium.

The Symposium
a. Wrong timing - Too soon after the Professor's passing, 4 or 5 years would have been better.

b. Wrong sales pitch - this was billed as a put up or shut up event from the start. Efforts were made to retract this statement but the damage was done and it was doomed from the start.

c. Wrong host - DR Barber did not have the right personality to deal with the different groups. His way or no way. No room for compromise. I personally believe this is a reason that many did not attend. An event like this should have done good numbers.

d. Location should have been more central to both coasts. I think that is one of the reasons that Datu Kelly did not attend.

Recent events at the symposium have given us a black eye, but they have also helped us by exposing those who seek to undermine the healing process that we are in the midst of.
True intentions will surface and when those who would harm our reputation are gone we will be stronger and more united.

Do I have all the answers? Not by a long shot, but I am trying to reach out to others and do my part to carry Modern Arnis into the future with pride. I know that in the WMAA we are open to all ideas that will keep Modern Arnis alive and well.

This my be too personal of a response but I can't talk about the art that I love in an antiseptic way. Only from what I know and feel.

Sal Todaro (Cebu West)