What happened to Modern Arnis

[Rich Parsons]

First, let me say I am glad that the turn out for Datu Worden and MARPIO was good.

Modern Arnis is North America has always been fragmented, it stemmed from GM R Presas himself. He never had a formal organization(s) or such. He was the reason people turned out. His talent, his charisma and our respect, for him, were the main reasons for those I know well.


Time heals most wounds. Time is needed in this case.


A more complete gathering of the seniors would be nice, yet will have to be out a few years. It was nice to see those seniors there in Buffalo, that I did get a chance to see.


I also think part of our problems stems for us being all INDIVIDUALS. A good friend of mine was talking to me recently and he said the logic may times has no place in areas where emotions reign. Not an exact quote, yet this is what I took from it.

As Individuals, and beings of emotions some of us do things differently, which leads to differeces. Some can handle this others have a problem with it. I think the time will come when things will much better. They never will be as they were, nor as we dreamed frmo the past of for the future.

My Opinion, not meant negatively at all.

:asian:

 

[DoxN4cer]

I agree with what you said Rich. The Professor was the reason for the fragmented organization of Modern Arnis, and at the same time he was the glue that held it all together. His passing left a huge vacuum, especially given the fact that before his illness he had no real organization or chain of command in place. He had so many "top students" that seemed to be "passed over" in the apparent rush to organize things before his passing.

I think that his family (Remy Jr., Demitrio and MaryAnn) is working diligently to re-unify the art, but this will take time and no small amount of effort. Their efforts seem to be taking a strong hold in the Pacific Northwest, and slowly but surely they're methodically making the rounds to other areas of the country. I wish them great success.

Cost and timing has always been an issue for my decisions to addend/not attend a seminar. I have to pick and choose carefully where and when I go. My schedule isn't always compatible with the things that I want to do. Anybody whose spent some time in service of their country can relate, I'm sure.

At the time I was surprised to see the lack of support from the WMAA since Tim has so many affiliated schools relatively close by, but given the conflicts between him and Dr. Barber I see why. It's unfortunate.

It would be great to eventually see all of the splinter groups at least loosely affiliated under one roof. Deiter, you had a great idea and I think that it's possible once we all put out egos down and accept that we are not the stars that we think we are. We are all the same, and we all put our pants on the same way regardless of rank and/or title.

There are alot of things plaguing the art at the moment. Many of which are conceit, jeolousy, greed and fear. Everybody wants to be number one. Nobody wants to do something for nothing (money talks, BS walks). Nobody wants to lose the status that Remy bestowed upon them. Everybody is afraid of looking like they don't have the whole art. These are all character flaws of individuals. I don't have any one person in mind here, but this is it in a nutshell. These are the things that keep us from getting together and really promting the art as it should be done.

Tim Kashino

 

[Dieter]

Thanks everybody

for the anwers fo far. It gave me a much better insight in different reasons. Please let your contributions coming. This is is also what I hoped for. Not a war on different people but a serious discussion on the situatiuon.
This awarness might help, to make things better a next time, if there will be a next time.


Tha boar man, Mark wrote

In the past at a IMAF camp I had the pleasure of meeting Gabbi from Germany and I think a couple of her students, this time I got to meet Dieter and his student. From what I remember of this small selection of people was that they were very precise and very good, in technique, form, knowledge etc. etc.

I generally don't see that of the students here in the states, myself included. Maybe it's because many of the students here don't value what they are being taught because it is plentiful and they don't value what they are receiving. Going to see the source or the head of a system doesn't mean anything to them.

I'm not tyring to be pro- German or a$$ kisser to Dieter, I'm just wondering if the martial arts and the FMA is as prevelent over there (Europe) as it is here.

I do not feel a$$ kissed first of all.
But you can imagine, when I bring a student over (Michael is with me since 10 years anfd going for Lakan Tatlo in September (Hey Dan, thats 3rd Dan )
I try not to bring somebody who doesn´t know what he is doing. Like the Professor did not bring some beginners to Germany to accompany him when he was there.

The second part of the story might be, that we from the DAV (German Arnis Associaticon) try not to do the "art within your are" so much. We try to teach Modern Arnis as a stand alone art. With Modern Arnis uniform, written curriculum, real organisation, etc. That leads to the fact, that our Modern Arnis members practice Modern Arnis between 1,5 hour and 5 hours a week.

As far as I understand, some of the Modern Arnis Players in the US do their XXX styles and then practice some 20 minutes a week Modern Arnis.
I know that this is not true for everybody, but I belive for the mayority of the Modern Arnis practitioners, that went to Remys seminars.

For the "art within your art" was very successfull for Remy to get many people involved into Miodern Arnis, I belive that it also kept many people away from serious practice, because they might have thought: "Why shpould I practice Modern Arnis so much, it is in my art anyway already".

I am only guessing, but it comes from many talks I had with americans. They also said, that there are much more adults involved into the martial arts here in Europe than in the US.

This is in no way ment to insult any american Modern Arnis player. I am just trying to give an explanation on a question that was asked and a situation that I have also observed. So please don´t feel insulted, because I also saw many great martial artists and Modern Arnis players on the symposium.


Best regards from Germany


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

 

[Cebu West]

Most martial art schools here in the US are funded by the kids programs. If you look into most schools there are very few adults and the ones that are there don't last long. There is always some reason they can't train on a regular basis. Everyone in the US is in express mode with a million things going on at the same time. Only the serious students survive. I would think that in Europe folks are a little more laid back. When people here earn legitimate black belts they have put in the time and have sacrificed many other things in exchange. The dedicated ones do stand out in the crowd though.
As long as we are in this frantic pace to work, pay bills, squeeze in some family time and train things here will remain the same.

SAL

 

[David Hoffman]

Hello Datu Dieter,

There is one fundamental difference between the way martial arts are presented in the US and in Germany. In the US, the overwhelming majority of schools are privately owned for profit enterprises. This means the schools have a high rent to pay and must charge a high monthly fee to make a profit. Most American are only too happy to pay their children’s way, but teens and young adults, must pay their own way. As a result, the “bread and butter” for the US schools are these children. The teens and young adults who are the target group for Arnis often can not afford the $60+ a month for tuition. Furthermore, in the US, anyone can open a school and call themselves “instructor”. This leads to diversity, but it also leads to a great variation in competence and structure.

In Germany, the situation is very different, but please correct me if I am mistaken.
In Germany an instructor must prove his qualification by membership in an approved national organization. This is true also in the UK. The instructor then may receive the necessary approval and insurance necessary to legally conduct a class. While this limits diversity it also promotes good basic standards of skill and safety, and larger organizations tend to have more standardized training. Very importantly, in Germany, an approved instructor also can use one of the many training spaces at government owned gyms and community centers. Thus the rent is very cheep so the tuition is also very affordable. Schools in Germany were more like clubs as a result. My impression was that most students paid a low membership fee that was a fraction of what a US student would pay. Instructors would receive a small fee from the parent organization and taught as a hobby, not the primary source of income. This is an ideal climate for an art/sport to flourish among teens and young adults.

Another factor is a cultural difference. When I was at your seminar in Frankfort, I was impressed by the fact that absolutely everyone wore a uniform specific to their group. This made for a very impressive looking group, like a military parade. This and the large turnout was why Professor chose a photo of this event for his revised, and as yet unreleased, Escrima book. It would seem possible that this trend toward regimentation would extend to techniques as well, thus one would expect to find a more “uniform” curriculum as well.

In the US we have mostly individual, commercial schools. Americans like to dress as they please as well. This, and the reality that the US is made up of many regions, has led to the great diversity of the art in America. Modern Arnis has thrived around several main hubs, New England, Michigan, Chicago and Portland, being the main hubs, and Buffalo, Texas, Philadelphia/MD/NJ, Ohio and Florida being among the secondary. Very few Modern Arnis players, in fact, only a handful, ever traveled beyond their region on any regular basis. This led to great regional diversity in terms of how the art was presented and practiced, ie: more like Kenpo, more like Kung Fu, stand alone, etc. as well as different standards for ranking. For this reason I would often meet a Lakan Tatlo in one region who was equivalent to a Lakan Isa in another. This variation also applied country to country. However, each was ranked appropriately for their own region or country.


Considering all these factors; lower available adult student base, regional variation and large geographical distance, one can understand why we have such diversity and variation in the US. While you had about 100 people at the Frankfort seminar, the vast majority of them were from two strictly regimented groups. At a typical US seminar, of the 40-60 people in attendance, one would expect to see 6 or more individual groups and a large number of independents. It would be unusual to see more than a few people in uniform and even those would be different.

When Professor was here to unite us, we saw competing groups come together to train. This still occurs to a lesser extent in the US. I would be interested to find out if the DAV and IMAF Germany still meet at any seminars. I sensed the same competitive nature between groups in Germany as I saw throughout the US, the US just had a larger number of small groups while Germany had two large, tightly regimented groups.

 

[Rocky]

Hello Deiter, good to here you posting.


So you wanna know what happend to Modern Arnis? I can name that tune in 2 words.


"Remy Presas"


Rocky

 

[David Hoffman]

I hope that more people will take the time to travel to other regions and countries. They will greatly benefit from the diversity! Seeing how something is done in another country or region gives valuable perspective. I am very happy to see Datu Dieter coming across the ‘big puddle’ to share with us. I am planning to host Dieter for a seminar in New England myself. I strongly encourage those who promote seminars to invite Dieter to come teach in their region, you will be richly rewarded with his high caliber of instruction! The same is true of our other senior Modern Arnis instructor, Master of Tapi-Tapi Gaby Roloff, she has taught at several IMAF camps since Professor’s passing, and her contribution was excellent! I hope people look beyond xenophobia and affiliation and take advantage of these two excellent German Modern Arnis instructors, who are so generous with their time and knowledge

 

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Rocky
Hello Deiter, good to here you posting.


So you wanna know what happend to Modern Arnis? I can name that tune in 2 words.


"Remy Presas"


Rocky

True that, Rock.

 

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by David Hoffman
I hope that more people will take the time to travel to other regions and countries. They will greatly benefit from the diversity! Seeing how something is done in another country or region gives valuable perspective.

You're right on the money there David. Everyone benefits from diversity. I spent seven years in Germany and made some trips to the PI, and those experiences were very rewarding. THe instructors I have trained with over the last 15 years were from many different systems and backgrounds. I came away from those experiences all the richer.

I think we should all seize any opportunity to train outside of our box. Varying your experiences enriches your training. You can see how others do it and relate it back to your art, or even add something to your repertoire. There's nothing new under the sun, but there is more than one way of doing things.

I think that the more diverse someone's background in the martial arts is, the less likely they are to get caught up in the "hero worship" that many students fall into. People in the worshipping phase are great, loyal students, but more often than not their minds are not working. Their minds are closed to everything that doesn't come from their "hero's" mouth. Once a person grows out of that pahse his eyes are open and he's ready to REALLY develop. That's what the martial arts are really about in my book; personal expression and development.

Tim Kashino

 

[Dieter]

Hi David,

thanks for your post about Germany.
You are partly right and partly wrong there.

Furthermore, in the US, anyone can open a school and call themselves “instructor”. This leads to diversity, but it also leads to a great variation in competence and structure.

Everybody can do that in Germany too.

In Germany, the situation is very different, but please correct me if I am mistaken. In Germany an instructor must prove his qualification by membership in an approved national organization.

I have to correct you there, it is not correct.

First of all, everybody who likes han open a commercial school if he wants. No qualification required.
Everybody can open a club, as long as the legal aspects are correct and the statues of the club go along with the regulations set by the local court. There are a few things you have to obey, but it is easy and we have virtually millions of clubs abot almost everything. Also no qualification needed. Only when you want to get paied by the local authorities to teach in your club, then you have to show a valid instructors license from an acknowledged association. No FMA association is reckognized by the german authorities, beacuse the standards for that are very high (at least 20000 memberos or so) and once you are in, you have the right to get a part of the money put into sports from the german goverment. That also means, all the associations that are in try to prohibit new ones coming in, because then their share of the money is getting smaller.
Anyway, cou can make a license with the local authorities for general sports. Then you get a little paied for the teaching and it is easier tpo get the public gymnasiums for teaching.

Very importantly, in Germany, an approved instructor also can use one of the many training spaces at government owned gyms and community centers. Thus the rent is very cheep so the tuition is also very affordable. Schools in Germany were more like clubs as a result. My impression was that most students paid a low membership fee that was a fraction of what a US student would pay. Instructors would receive a small fee from the parent organization and taught as a hobby, not the primary source of income. This is an ideal climate for an art/sport to flourish among teens and young adults.

In general this is right, exept what I wrote above. In the DAV most of the students are members of cheap clubs, but we also have schools that teach Modern Arnis. In that case, the same facts (high rent, higher charges, making ift for living) apply than in the US.

Another factor is a cultural difference. When I was at your seminar in Frankfort, I was impressed by the fact that absolutely everyone wore a uniform specific to their group. This made for a very impressive looking group, like a military parade. This and the large turnout was why Professor chose a photo of this event for his revised, and as yet unreleased, Escrima book. It would seem possible that this trend toward regimentation would extend to techniques as well, thus one would expect to find a more “uniform” curriculum as well.

Maybe, with the exeption of the military. As I agree that it is nice for different reasons, that the people wear uniforms, I have to disagree with the military, because I associate with this standing in line and doing all the same (like in Shotokan Karate), which is not the way we teach here. We use the same teaching method of the Professor, which is relaxed and individual. With the rest I think I can agree.

In the US we have mostly individual, commercial schools. Americans like to dress as they please as well. This, and the reality that the US is made up of many regions, has led to the great diversity of the art in America.

Well, yes and no. As much as I can understand that point, as much I see that almost all other martial arts like Karate, Kempo, Taekwon Do etc manage, that a uniform is worn, even in the US. I cannot imagine people practise Taekwon Do for example in Jeans and T-shirt.
But I understand, that this was not so important for the Professor (for him it was more important that they came and trained and not what they wore I think.) And he also sometimes taught in very casual clothing. And, as good students, you of course follow the example set by the master.
And my backgroud is more filipino. Brocka, the Master I started with wore Uniform, Ernesto always wore uniform and insisted that we did and with my recent vidsit to the Philippines, even in private class, only 1:1 me and the Master/Grandmaster with nobody watching, ALL of them wore always FULL uniform, including belt and jacket. And of course as good students you follow the example ... see above
So I see the unifom also as an historical thing, how the art evolved in the different countries.

Considering all these factors; lower available adult student base, regional variation and large geographical distance, one can understand why we have such diversity and variation in the US. While you had about 100 people at the Frankfort seminar, the vast majority of them were from two strictly regimented groups. At a typical US seminar, of the 40-60 people in attendance, one would expect to see 6 or more individual groups and a large number of independents. It would be unusual to see more than a few people in uniform and even those would be different.

Agreed.

When Professor was here to unite us, we saw competing groups come together to train. This still occurs to a lesser extent in the US. I would be interested to find out if the DAV and IMAF Germany still meet at any seminars. I sensed the same competitive nature between groups in Germany as I saw throughout the US, the US just had a larger number of small groups while Germany had two large, tightly regimented groups.

OK, I understand that. But, first of all, the IMAF Germany does not appear anywhere. The website has not been updated since before the Professors sickness (Summer 2000), no advertising for seminars, no reviews, nothing I even don´t know if it is still existing. This is no bald talk, it is a fact.

And as we would be open for them to participate in our seminars, they don´t come and mix. We cannot paritcipate, because the either don´t have seminars or they are not open to the public.

But I do understand (also before your contribution) the problematic of competition and people not liking or even respecting each other.

But with my question I wanted to come closer to the situationof Modern Arnis inthe US and this is happening. With every mail I undersand better. Keep them coming.


Best regards from Germany


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

 

[Rocky]

I have read with great interest the many well written post on here about What happend to Modern Arnis. And as when Remy was alive I see the same old Texas two stepping around the issue.

Bram pretty much hit it on the head that in the U.S. the arts are taught in schools that have an over head to meet and must make certain accomedations. But that is only a small part of the problem.

What most of the Remy worshippers don't want to here is that Modern Arnis is like a business and when a business goes wrong and its not do to the economy you must look at the top down!!!!

Remy Presas one of the finest Martial Artist to walk the earth ( and I really mean that) but he was a horrible businessman, a user, and quite often a doulbe talker, All of which I have said straight to his face some 6 or 7 years ago. I loved the man like a second father, and I trained directly under him my intire Modern Arnis carreer, which start when I was about 11 years old in or around 1976. Remy had a nack for telling people what they wanted to here. If you had him in for a seminar at your school he may very well tell everyone that you were his top guy or his protege' or what ever, next weekend at a school 100 miles or 1500 miles away he would tell someone else the same thing. If a person had a lot of students and could bring him in more often for seminars and more money he did what he had to, to keep it rolling. I told him at the last big fight we had in the car in front of GM Buot's house that if anything should happen to him his art would be left a mess. For Christ sakes if you just take a look at some of the Masters out their and really dig into how much actual one on one training they had with Remy its discussting, and if they had any honor some of them wouldn't even accept their rank!!! It takes thousands of hours and years of training in most arts to get a 2nd or 3rd degree black belt, yet there are masters in Modern Arnis, that have maybe 20 or 30 seminars a hand full of summer camps and maybe what would amount to a few weeks of actuall one on one training with professor, and yet in a 6 or 7 year periodd they out rank me ( a 5th degree blackbelt) and I lived with Remy for 3 to 6 months out of the year back in the 80s, for several years, he had his own bed room at my parents house, hell he and my father would train for a couple hours every morning. In 1982/3 he and I quit doing just about all Modern Arnis and just trained in Moncol & Maranga's un-grouped Balintawak. He use to tell my father and Gm Buot that training with me brought back good memories of his childhood. Yet I am out of the loop for a few years because I confronted him about the ******** of just telling people what they wanted to here, and bam!! within a few years there are all these Modern Arnis masters floating around. And if I have said this once I have said it a hundred times, these are masters who have vertually no fundimental understanding of Crossada De mano, Mocal or Maranga's Balintawak, or Palis Palis Silat all of which are not just techniques but complete arts that make up the fundimentals of Modern Arnis. Now that Professor is gone people are only doing what he told them to do. The state of Modern Arnis rest solely on his shoulders.

Personally I see a couple of guys that are doing their very best to make a good strong Modern Arnis group, and I wish them all the luck in the World, hey if Take ones Dough can have umpteen orginazations why can't Modern Arnis.

I would suggest that anyone interested in Modern Arnis find an organization that they are comfortable with and stay with it, don't worry what everyone else is doing , don't let the ghost's of Remy's million and one indissisions haunt you. Give praise to the Man for the Martial artist that he was, but see him for the flawed man that he and all of us are.

Rocky

 

[David Hoffman]

[

Originally posted by Rocky
I have read with great interest the many well written post on here about What happend to Modern Arnis. And as when Remy was alive I see the same old Texas two stepping around the issue.

What most of the Remy worshippers don't want to here is that Modern Arnis is like a business and when a business goes wrong and its not do to the economy you must look at the top down!!!!

Your perception that the "business has gone wrong" in not accurate. Modern Arnis continues to flourish. The regular IMAF seminars have strong attendance as do the seminars conducted by the various independent groups. Modern Arnis remains the most popular FMA. What is wrong is the squabbling among of a few malcontents, not the "business."

Remy Presas one of the finest Martial Artist to walk the earth ( and I really mean that) but he was a horrible businessman, a user, and quite often a doulbe talker,

That is slander Rocky. Perhaps it is why you were estranged for most of the last 20 years? Just because you made a criticism doesn't make it accurate. Now that Professor is no here to answer, it is very bad form. In fact, Professor was an excellent businessman, he built this whole seminar business from nothing and was the highest paid instructor and most popular seminar instructor that I know of. A user? Double talker? That is an insult Rocky and your opinion based upon your subjective view! If your father passed away you would not be pleased if one of his detractors took to slandering him on a public forum. Please stop!

I told him at the last big fight we had in the car in front of GM Buot's house

That you had a falling out with Professor long ago and went your own way is your business. It is bad form for you to continue the "big fight" now that he has passed away.

Masters out their and really dig into how much actual one on one training they had with Remy its discussting, and if they had any honor some of them wouldn't even accept their rank!!!

What masters are you slandering here? As you were not present for most of the last 15 years how do you know how others where trained? Your posts always suggest that you alone were properly trained and more qualified than all the pretenders. You went your own way, were alienated from Professor for most of your adult life and never achieved high rank. Get over it! You have other accomplishments in other arts, you don’t need to come back to Modern Arnis to prove yourself by putting everyone else, including Professor, down!

It takes thousands of hours and years of training in most arts to get a 2nd or 3rd degree black belt, yet there are masters in Modern Arnis, that have maybe 20 or 30 seminars a hand full of summer camps and maybe what would amount to a few weeks of actuall one on one training with professor, and yet in a 6 or 7 year periodd they out rank me ( a 5th degree blackbelt)

If you had continued with your training you too would have advanced in rank. Instead, your anger and frustration blocked you.

out of the loop for a few years because I confronted him about the ******** of just telling people what they wanted to here, and bam!! within a few years there are all these Modern Arnis masters floating around.

You were out of the loop for more than a few years Rocky. If Professor was as free with ranking as you suggest than why did you not receive it? Because, as you say, you were out of the loop and confrontational!

And if I have said this once I have said it a hundred times, these are masters who have vertually no fundimental understanding of Crossada De mano, Mocal or Maranga's Balintawak, or Palis Palis Silat all of which are not just techniques but complete arts that make up the fundimentals of Modern Arnis. Now that Professor is gone people are only doing what he told them to do. The state of Modern Arnis rest solely on his shoulders.

Yes you have said this a hundred times. Apparently you believe that you alone are qualified to teach. Good for you. Would you be happy if everyone renounced their rank and instructor titles and came to study in your original, true, real, honest school? If you are so qualified than why not take up the slack and teach 2 seminars a week all over the world like Professor did? "The louder he spoke of his honour the faster we counted our spoons."

don't let the ghost's of Remy's million and one indissisions haunt you. ...but see him for the flawed man that he and all of us are

Rocky

Are those “indecisions” Professor not recognising your greatness and endorsing you? You have said so in the past. Flawed? No one is perfect Rocky, not even you! But it is improper to rehash the same tired old complaints from a decade ago when the person you opposed is no longer here to defend himself! You are human and must be flawed also, yet I only see you post about Professor's flaws, not your own! Because you unfairly do so, I am pointing out a flaw or two, the difference is you are alive to respond to my criticism, Professor is not.

Being that you and I are friends from "back in the day" and were together at the first training camp in West Virginia and you know I have nothing against you. I hope you can accept my words as a valid criticism and not a personal attack. It just hurts me to see Professor's name dragged through the mud when he is not here to defend himself. All the more so as we are in the month before the second year anniversary of his passing. May I respectfully request that you put aside your old vendettas and complaints and not use this forum to bash Professor?

 

[Dieter]

David Hoffman wrote:

I hope that more people will take the time to travel to other regions and countries. They will greatly benefit from the diversity! Seeing how something is done in another country or region gives valuable perspective. I am very happy to see Datu Dieter coming across the ‘big puddle’ to share with us. I am planning to host Dieter for a seminar in New England myself. I strongly encourage those who promote seminars to invite Dieter to come teach in their region, you will be richly rewarded with his high caliber of instruction! The same is true of our other senior Modern Arnis instructor, Master of Tapi-Tapi Gaby Roloff, she has taught at several IMAF camps since Professor’s passing, and her contribution was excellent! I hope people look beyond xenophobia and affiliation and take advantage of these two excellent German Modern Arnis instructors, who are so generous with their time and knowledge

Hi David,

I look forward to a seminar or camp, possibly hosted or organized by you.
As soon as we have a possible date, and anybody would like to have also a seminar with me, please let me know, we could try to arrange it all together, so that the cost of the intercontinental flight could be shared.
I know there is some interest in Texas and maybe even in the NY area. Anyway, David, as soon as you have a date we can plan about, please let me know. I am more that willing to share my version of Modern Arnis with the american students. I have had the pleasure of teaching in the US already in Whichita, Tacoma, Hartford, Philidelphia, Houston and Buffalo, and so far I think, everybdy enjoyed it, to get a little other, the "german" aspect of Modern Arnis.

Looking forward how this may develop.


Best regards from Germany


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

 

[Rocky]

First off Dave I New that my post would , bring out the worshippers.

That is slander Rocky. Perhaps it is why you were estranged for most of the last 20 years? Just because you made a criticism doesn't make it accurate. Now that Professor is no here to answer, it is very bad form

Your definition of slander must mean something diferent than mine. Dave you ever here the famous phrase " Don't entertain them" it was one of Remy's favorite. I am not going to air out every little detail, but my critisism not being accurate???? You mean Remy was a sucessfull business man, WOW!!! You must think Mohomad Ali was a great businessman too!!! Just because Remy made money and was the highest paid seminar man does not make him a sucessfull businessman. Again re-read my post, he was the master of telling people what they wanted to hear!!! Especially if they had lots of students!!! Making money is one thing keeping it and taking care of your comitments with it are another.

As far as not being involved with Remy for 20 years!!! Who was that I was free sparring with at his Michigan camp 6 or 7 years ago???? In fact one of his New Master we'll call him Charlie Bandaid, followed me around for half the day because he had never seen Remy completetly free spar before ( this means no single sinwalli or pattern of any kind) of course by the end of the day Remy told him not to "Entertain Me" so the guy who lives a few miles from me never camoe to train and is still stagnant in his stick work. Tim Hatman was there, I don't know how much of thestory he knows but he saw us sparr and he saw this guy following me around. After lunch Remy talked to the guy and they kept looking at me, and it was my top student Hal Edwards, who look over pointed them out and said Rocky how much you wanna bet Remy is tellin ghim not to " Entertain You"

Buffalo New York 1980's Dave go ask the players from back them what Remy had done to them!!!! Luckly know it seems Tim Hartman, and his group and Jerome Barber and his group ( throught better organization and business practices) seem to be fixing things their. Flint Michigan 1980's, Jeff Fields, Robert Demott, Jeff Owens, Jim Power, Jim Birchfield all promised to be the head honcho in that area to make for a better working enviroment for Modern Arnis, I'll give you 3 guess's David who made that promise to each of them. The samething happend in Chicago, here in Detroit, Europe Canada and god knows where else.

That you had a falling out with Professor long ago and went your own way is your business. It is bad form for you to continue the "big fight" now that he has passed away.

What big fight again if you read my post you are doing exactically what I said the worshippers would do!!! Why don't you point out that I said that I still love the man, as I do my father, I give praise to him for much of my ability. But that doesn't mean that you just turn a blind eye to other things he was my teacher and my superior in Martial Arts, but thats it, he was just a man. And ask me anything you want about my father Dave and I will tell you the truth, most of it good just like Remy but some will be bad, but thats the way it is, see, I live in a little place called reality.

What masters are you slandering here? As you were not present for most of the last 15 years how do you know how others where trained? Your posts always suggest that you alone were properly trained and more qualified than all the pretenders. You went your

You really like to throw the slander word around, not digging for a little gold are you David :rofl:

Again you read what you want pick and choose and complain, you are smart enough and talanted enough at least as far as I can remember to know who and what I am talking about.

Me alone the only one NOPE sorry don't feel that way all though I along with others were promissed to be his sucessors, " oh damn you don't want to here that do you" No their are a lot of good people, have I ever said anything about your, ability??? No Master Anderson warned me a while back " Rocky if you say anything other than favorable things about Remy some of his worshippers will have fits" He new Remy for as long as many and he to has seen some of the wacky things he did. You know Dave and I will admit I have know way to prove. But about 8 years ago Remy and I were talking on the phone and I told him Remy you are getting crazy with some of this rank that you are giveing out. His resome was Oh Rocky just don't entertain that it means nothing. So I asked him well Remy if it means nothing that what is my rank now??? His exact words were "Rocky you are what ever you want to be" Now again I can't prove it but it happened, is this part of that great business personality?

you had continued with your training you too would have advanced in rank. Instead, your anger and frustration blocked you.

What anger ****!!! Do have to go to an anger management class?? God I hope not. Lets see I went on to train in the roots of Modern Arnis to see the path that Remy took and experience as much of it as I could, in a modern day setting. And guess what David, I didn't SEEEEE annyyyyyone else there??????

Are those “indecisions” Professor not recognising your greatness and endorsing you? You have said so in the past. Flawed? No one is perfect Rocky, not even you! But it is improper to rehash the same tired old complaints from a decade ago when the person you opposed is no longer here to defend himself! You are human and must be flawed also, yet I only see you post about Professor's flaws, not your own! Because you unfairly do so, I am pointing out a flaw or two, the difference is you are alive to respond to my criticism, Professor is not

Now it is you that is attacking me because I spoke about the things Remy did that hurt his art and left it with so many people bickering and arguing. Showl me once where I said I great, I have had a few girls tell me that But I am just a simple Eskrimador, no fancy tiltles or any such thing, all I can do is prove thought my sticks, my worth which I have always been willing to do, because I am confident and thankfull of the skills that Remy helped me develope.

Being that you and I are friends from "back in the day" and were together at the first training camp in West Virginia and you know I have nothing against you. I hope you can accept my words as a valid criticism and not a personal attack. It just hurts me to see Professor's name dragged through the mud when he is not here to defend himself. All the more so as we are in the month before the second year anniversary of his passing. May I respectfully request that you put aside your old vendettas and complaints and not use this forum to bash Professor?

Yes and I have no problem with you hope you contine to spead Professors art. And I do not bash Remys name like you are trying to say I am simply giving an explination of why Modern Arnis is so messed up, again it starts from the top!!!

I have said this many times I am not sure Remy really intentially hurt poeple or screwed things up between people, he just never wanted to be negative towards people so he TOLD THEM WHAT THEY WANTED TO HERE, in fact that might have been his biggest flaw, he didn't wanted to make everyone happy and he tried. unfortuately in doing so he doulbel talked alot and burned many a people.

However none of this takes away from him being one of the Greeatest Eskrimadors ever. In fact the one thing that I really cherish about Remy is when it came to Eskrima he never had any out landish stories about being undefeated, and never being hit, or any one of a number of strange rituals that many old Eskrimadors try to pass off. Nor did he claim to have kill so many men. Personally I find that very refreshing in Martial arts.

Rocky

 

[Rocky]

Next time you are in this area let me know. We could probably throw something together for you.


Rocky

 

[Emptyglass]

Rocky:

As PG Tom Bolden likes to say: "Skill is Rank." In reading through your post and my own experiences with the Professor in the late 80's and 90's I think you have hit the nails right on the heads.

Originally posted by Rocky
"Rocky you are what ever you want to be"

I believe you and I only met in person a few times (maybe 2, once at Powerhuouse Gym in Orchard Park, NY for certain) but I do remember that you definitely had the skill to go along with your level of expertise when we met.

I'm rightfully proud of my accomplishment in the Modern Arnis system while Remy was alive and the efforts I feel I honestly made to attain it. However, in today's world of multiple, multiple Lakan Apats-Pito and above who cares? I've continued to grow, learn and explore the Filipino Martial Arts and while I'll always credit my education in Modern Arnis as taught to me by Dr. Jerome Barber as my base, the addition of techniques, skills and movements from other styles have also influenced my own personal development (Billy Bryant's Oliverez Pangasinan Escrima, Punong-Guro Tom Bolden's Panci-Panci Escrima, Kapatid Bobby Ladra's Kalidrada Escrima, GM Bobby Taboada's Balintawak are examples). Skill demonstrates what you know and what you don't and anyone who wants to argue otherwise is hiding something in my opinion.

In any case, you don't need affirmation from a practicioner such as myself (that's right folks, I've been involved with learning and then learning and teaching Modern Arnis and the Filipino Martial Arts since my start in the mid-eighties at John Bryant's school in Amherst, NY, I train with Guro Ladra 3-4 hours a day, 4 days a week and I still don't feel comfortable calling myself more than that) but I do share your opinons on how things are today with many students and instructors of Modern Arnis as well as the manner that the Professor conducted his business.

The opinions above are my own so take them up with me.

Maraming Salamat Po,

Richard Curren

 

[Bob]

Taken from the WMAC forum:

"We all know Professor was not perfect, most of accept it and live with it. We have issues with each other and in time will work through our differences or move past giving a rat's ***....

It is very evident that Rocky needs some attention and that he felt wronged by Professor for not recognizing him. For the most part I have always heard good things about Rocky’s skill level and his dedication to the art. It is just sad that he feel’s the need to air his unwashed laundry in public,,, the stench and brown streaks surely would close a Chinese Laundromat …. Although he talks of his personal arguments with Remy, I really doubt if he would dare speak like this in his presence, say across the gym in an open discussion. If he says differently he is full of crap!

There is also no question most everyone reading this dribble Rocky seems to think he is privy to is equally sickened by his self aggrandized arrogance. Every one else is a fraud but he is the real deal, because he started at age 11, wow! Now he is an adult and hasn’t trained directly with Remy for how many years and still is the authority of the complete system?

We are all fraud’s of the M/A system, yet being a young man, troubled with health and weight problems he is the “Founder of a System.” Does that not make him “A Master?”
Apparently a “Master of Anciong Bacon Balintawak System,” In reality wouldn’t you have to have at least studied in the Philippines with “Grandmaster Bacon” to claim lineage, or even mention his name in conjunction (with the legend in his own mind) “Rocky” as a founder of the late master’s art? Please raise you’re hand if the brown streaks still reak….

I have read Rocky’ posts in E’digest and of course I will be attacked for my concerns of his lack of loyalty to Professor Remy and Modern Arnis. Well hell I will feel honored to be slagged in public by such a “great chubby little know it all arnisadork” as “Rocko the Great.”

On a more personal note, the last time Remy and I spoke of you he laughed at your desire to be recognized, yet according to the last report of your personal accomplishments it read like a “been there done squat.” Instead of trying to defame Professor and others, lose some weight, brush your teeth, wash out you’re nasty little mouth and do your own work!

Gotta a beef,

my address is 3030 unit F 28th st. west.
University Place Wa.
253-564-2867
And yes I am you're senior in Modern Arnis, martial arts, life, and yes, you are a pissant!
_________________
Kelly S. Worden

 

[Rocky]

As I have said in the past, the worshippers would come out of the wood work, someone please forward this to the Great Datu Worden.

First Kelly where were you when Remy was living at my parents house off and on for all those years.

Secondly every single thing I said here, I said to Remy, GM Buot knows this to be true. In fact he tried on numerous accasions to patch things up between us. Because he knew that we were much closer than, just student Master, Remy use to come watch me play football as a kid. GM Buot has said numerous times when talking to Remy that the old man was hurt ( as was and still am I ) because of our relationship, not because I was some sniviling *** kisser looking for something, but because we really cared about each other, maybe this is hard for you to understand!!!! I love Remy for Remy not because of what he could do for me.

As I stated to David, I will ansewer any question, even about my own father, I will tell you the way it was good or bad, if that shatters your little world well then cry me a river.

Next you abviously have some problem with GM Buot too!!!! Tell me where I make claims to be the main man in Balintawak, that position is filled by Grand Master Buot, I am mearly the chief instructor at my school for Balintawak, get your facts straight. As far as Cuentada De mano, when you have as much actual training as me in both Modern Arnis and Balintawak with Remy ( One on One not seminar stuff) and with Gm Tanconio and Gm Buot who helped me name the art and supports me, then I will worry about your opinion, tell then, just keep living in your own world.

And once again Kelly read all my post not just what bruises your fanatic views of Remy.

Like I said I always praise Remy for what he gave me, as should we all. I am not airing any dirty laundry, Dieter asked a simple question "Why is Modern Arnis in the state it is" Since you are the new all knowing oricle of wisdom Kelly, please you tell us why things are the way they are, know and in the past, if you have a better explination, my hat is off to you!!!! So there it is Kelly please enlighten us, instead of attacking someone that, offered his opinion as to why things are the way they are, come give us some wisdom!!!

P.S you know what is really amazing, a few months ago I was talking to Master Anderson via E-mail and told him that I thought you were one of the few old timers that were really on the up and up, and that along with him and Tim and Jim P. and a few others I thought eventually you guy would be the ones that evetually clean everything up.

Guess I over estimated you??

P.s as far as accomplisments, where were you when Remy was going to Amsterdam to watch, me fight. Where were you when I was the only Guy representing Modern Arnis at some of the Pekiti Tersia fights, where Kelly boy. And please don't insult Gm Buot by making false statements about Balintawak. I see Master Anderson flying all the way out here to learn some of the Modern Arnis roots, where are you???? Of course you probably think you know what he has to offer. And if you wanna play the he said they said game, years ago when I asked Remy about you back when you, I beleave only had a few years training in, he basically told me " Not to Entertain you"

Your pissant friend who was teaching Modern Arnis in Europe at 17 while you were still playing with your short stick. God don't you feel bad that at 17 I had done more in martial arts then you did at age what 30, god if I was you I think I 'd chew on the end of a gun.

Nothing but love Kelly nothing but love

Rocky

1-313-729-7016

 

[Rocky]

Sorry if I don't place a face with your name but thanks for the post.

As PG Tom Bolden likes to say: "Skill is Rank." In reading through your post and my own experiences with the Professor in the late 80's and 90's I think you have hit the nails right on the heads.

PG Bolden is right on, I like his thinking, I don't know if we ever crossed pathes, but I here good things about him.

People see things through rosed color glasses sometimes, they don't know how to seperate truth from a fantacy idea of martial arts. I personally don't think I am slamming anyone, hell I am honest about my feelings, because they are real, I personally wouldn't have given a rats *** if Remy would have quit teaching me when I was 18 or 19, as long as we would have stayed like family, I could care less about losing a martial arts instructor, losing Remy was like losing a very close uncle. Gm Buot could see this in both of us he Remy and Hal Edwards had breakfast once and Remy got very emotional about out situation, and even with Gm Buot talking to Remy and Hal talking to me, we are both bull headed. Now I have to live with it. But I know I will see him again. And I know he and my pops are probably looking down wondering what the next stupid thing is I will do

So keep swing it sounds like you are training with some good people.

Rocky

 

[DoxN4cer]

It seems that your straight talk has opened a huge can of worms, Rock.

The Professor often seemed to try to surround himself with "worshippers" at the expence of skilled, hard training students. If he hadn't done that Modern Arnis would not have grow into what it is today. (I realize the duality of this statement)

I remember Duane Ranieri at the 1988 MSU Camp saying something to the effect that the Professor had two kinds of students; bona fide students and groupies. Unfortunately the groupies often seemed to be promoted on the merits of what they could do for the Professor rather than actual skill, and the bona fide students of the art would often see that and loose their faith in the Professor.

I'm a virtual nobody in terms of any of the Modern Arnis organizations, but I have been aroud enough to see the kind of things Rocky is talking about. Richard Curren and I saw it happen to Dr. Barber. Dr. Barber saw it happen to Don Zanghi, John Bryant and PG Tom Bolden. These are just an examples of a pattern that was apparently repeated at several times and several areas of the country. Many times I saw the Professor introduce a person to a group at a seminar or camp and tell everyone that "XXXX is very good, you must give your support to XXXX". Later on in the year when people showed some support for "XXXX" as reqested by hie man himself, they found that they and "XXXX" had fallen from the the Professor's good graces.

I don't beleive that I'm committing slander here. It's all known fact, and it has happened to a many people. I'm not bringing it to light to be malicious, and the statements I'm making are true.

Because of my involment in the military I was out of the loop on much of the "politcal developments" of the past 10 years or so. I'm pretty happy to be on the fringe of it all since I was never really sucked into it. In 1992, I was stationed in Germany. While on leave attending a camp at Irwin Carmichael's place in Huntersville, NC, I was informed by the Professor that I was going to be his "promotional consultant" for Germany and that I was to mail off some certificates to various cantacts in Europe. At the time I thought that it was a cool thing. I had no idea that he already had people in Germany, and I hadn't been given their addresses to facilitate working with them. I had a verbal appointment with no REAL responsibilty, no plan of action and no support network.

You can't fault the Professor for trying to ean a living and acheive his goal of speading Modern Arnis throughout the world. He did just that. The only big flaw in my mind was the lack of a structured organization with clear cut gaols and operational parameters. It appears that the formation of IMAF Inc and The MoTT group was an attempt at a quick fix for that, but to people on the outside looking in it appeared to be a last chance to jockey for position and rank. I mean that objectively, so don't anybody get all butt-sore over it and start flaming all of the on-line forums.

We can't change what has been done, but we can learn from it. We can't learn from it if we dwell on it and continually agonize over it.

Respectfully submited,

Tim Kashino