what exactly is waterboarding?

Discussion in 'The Study' started by DavidCC, Jul 17, 2008.

  1. DavidCC

    DavidCC Master of Arts

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  2. Nolerama

    Nolerama Master Black Belt

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    That's a fun-filled weekend!

    Seriously, it's sad that we say we should uphold human rights when this violates that.

    However, "aggressive interrogation" has, and always will, occur when countries are in conflict. If anything, I'd say this proves that we all need to start seeing beyond the BS, and start being more active in politics and sensitive to world cultures/affairs... On both sides of the political line.
     
  3. Empty Hands

    Empty Hands Senior Master

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    Interesting that he only lasted maybe 10 seconds. I didn't think it would be that severe that quickly. Also interesting that the "interrogators" wore black hoods and gloves. For their benefit? For ours? Not fun, over all.

    This isn't even the worst possible form of water boarding.
    [​IMG]
     
  4. DavidCC

    DavidCC Master of Arts

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    It looked to me like the guy was never in any real danger ... but he sure as heck thought he was, and quickly too!

    After all the talk in the media, I exepcted something a lot more violent or aggressive. I think you are correct, Nolerama, we do need to see thru the BS, this is not nearly as bad as it was made out to be.
     
  5. Empty Hands

    Empty Hands Senior Master

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    Interesting that you watched this video and came to the opposite conclusion on this matter than the guy who went through it.
     
  6. Twin Fist

    Twin Fist Grandmaster

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    if reporters were all that brave or tough, they would have been soldiers........%-}
     
  7. Sukerkin

    Sukerkin Have the courage to speak softly

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    Come now, gentlemen. Would you voluntarily go through that?

    The drowning reflex is entirely beyond conscious control for most of us and the terror generated must be enormous, no matter that your conscious mind is telling you that the scenario is not 'for real'.

    So let's not allow ourselves to become super-humanly John Wayne and judgemental when seeing somebody going through what we have not.

    I know I for one cannot abide having my face under water - that comes from nearly drowning as a young child and no matter how brave or stoic I may be in other circumstances, putting my head under water fills me with panic. I'm given to understand that that is the feeling that Waterboarding replicates so, if you're going to do that to me, just ask me what you want to know and I'll tell you :D.
     
  8. Empty Hands

    Empty Hands Senior Master

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    Well, Hitchens in full battle dress with a weapon of some sort IS a rather comical image. However, soldiers who have gone through SERE say something pretty similar.

    Former SERE instructor Malcolm Nance:"It has no justification outside of its limited role as a training demonstrator...Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word...Waterboarding is slow motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of black out and expiration –usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch and if it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia. When done right it is controlled death."
     
  9. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    Water boarding was described in the Maleaus Malificorum "The Hammer Against the Witches" as a reliable way of determining whether someone was a witch. According to the text, not a single person was able to resist even with full knowledge that they would be burned alive if they relented. This was taken by the Church to mean that witches had some unholy aversion to water...

    We all know what that was...torture and death. And since "terrorists" recieve the same treatment and are sentanced to death, other then the method of execution, how far has humanity really come?

    I think the people who do this and the people who order it are war criminals. They deserve the Nurenburg Noose. Soldiers who are order to do this, should refused the order. Mercenaries who are hired to do this are war criminals. Those who hire them are war criminals on two accounts.

    That's a lot of people...and they all gave this country a blackeye. I don't know if they will ever face justice for it, but if there is a God, hopefully he has a hot place in hell for those who torture.

    I doubt it.
     
  10. Andy Moynihan

    Andy Moynihan Senior Master

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    As far as it is ever going to, I suspect.
     
  11. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    I think we can do better.

    We need to classifiy the methods of rationalization/mind control that make people think doing this to another human being is okay as evil things.

    That's a good place to start.
     
  12. Mark L

    Mark L Brown Belt

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    Looks like it sucks, a lot. I don't want it ever done to me, that's why I will never try and make a point by slaughtering innocents.

    Do you think the US military is doing this to random individuals for fun? The terrorists that carried out 911 want to destroy us. How about we just let them, 'cause we don't want to do anything unpleasant.

    Jim Trentini was my teacher in high school. Tom McGuiness was my classmate in high school and college. Jim, his wife, and Tom were all on the first plane to hit the WTC. They were innocent, and are now dead, with thousands of others.

    Maybe we should keep in mind the compassion that was shown to them and the other victims of this ****ing ridiculous conflict when we condemn the practices of those charged with ending it. There's plenty of suffering on both sides of this. It wasn't started by water boarding, it was started by Islamic Terrorists.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2008
  13. Big Don

    Big Don Sr. Grandmaster

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    Tens of thousands of American pilots, flight crews and special forces troops have gone through that, since we have an all volunteer military, I'd have to say I wouldn't, but, I'm glad men better than me have.

    I think we ought to treat the terrorists we capture the way the Geneva Conventions allows us to deal with non-uniformed combatants, that is, summarily execute them as spies and/or saboteurs.
     
  14. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    Ya ever stop to think that their might be more to the story then this line of thought? Assuming that the government story is true, Chalmers Johnson lays out a great argument in his book "Blowback" that should make every true beleiver take a step back.

    The US isn't operating in a vacuum...its not like our government didn't "see" this happening.

    On the other hand, maybe we don't really know what happened on 911 and a lot of people died and we are being fed a line of BS. Our country's track record regarding the truth of such matters...especially when war is concerned, is dubious at best.
     
  15. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Grandmaster

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    It might not have looked that bad.... But this was a guy that knew the people doing it, knew they would stop as soon as he wanted them too, and knew exactly where he was and what was going to happen.

    He lasted only a few seconds.

    Now had they kept at it for 5-mins or so, not letting him ask them to stop, this would have been a very different demonstration.



    Just don't claim the moral high ground then.

    This was a group of terrorists, I'd like to think that the most powerful nation on the planet doesn't have to sink to the level of criminals on a official level.

    It also creates a cycle that never ends. Remember back in 2001 when the US led a coalition against Al Queida? It had pretty good international support. Then that ended, but Iraq got invaded, which was a war the Iraqis did not start.

    But regardless of that, there is now a war, with the most powerful army on the planet on one side, and poor people fighting for their homes and beliefs (regardless of what you think of those beliefs) on the other side, they are desperate, without the resources to fight on a fair playing field and from their point of view, they are the good guys, getting crushed by a evil empire that defies their God.

    One thing history shows, when people are fighting a religious war, things get ugly. The enemy is seen as evil and not human, the people are doing Gods work, and all rules go out the window.

    Giving them more reasons to think the west is evil, like using these techniques on prisoners, is only going to recruit more fighters to their cause.
     
  16. Ninjamom

    Ninjamom 2nd Black Belt

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    Have to differ on that one: there is a free Iraq, where the overwhelming majority of people now have a relatively-stable (but still young and wobbly-kneed) government that is being attacked by a small band of religious fighters from outside the country, supported by a shrinking minority of extremist native Iraqis.

    There is a great source of news on what is really happening on the ground in Iraq in the blog of an independent reporter named Michael Yon. His recent book doesn't pull any punches about the mistakes we (the US) made during the opening of the war in Iraq, so he definitely isn't a rose-colored glasses kind of guy. As an independent reporter, he has no axe to grind or drum to beat, and I have never heard him play "the party line" for any side. Still, this is his latest assessment on his blog:

    He has been reporting on the ground from Iraq, literally for years. He is so convinced it's basically 'over' that he is packing up and moving to Afghanistan.

    Now it's time for us to be ready to respond to the new Iraqi government. Meaning: we should help with maintaining stability and rebuilding/retraining only to the extent that the new government wants our help, and we should be ready to leave as soon as they say, "Go."
     
  17. Andy Moynihan

    Andy Moynihan Senior Master

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    I don't.

    If we could we'd have managed after something like 10000 years of recorded civilization( remember all "Civilized" means is you live in cities).
     
  18. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Grandmaster

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    Iraq is under military occupation, it is not "free"

    Under occupation life can go on as normal for a lot of people, but that doesn't mean the country as a whole is free.

    For comparison, here is Paris during WW2:
    http://funnytogo.com/stories/parisww2color/gallery.htm

    For the most part, and without any knowledge of the situation, it doesn't look like a bad place to live. Until you start recognizing some of the symbols in there, and remember what was going on in the world at that time.

    Also remember that before the invasion the overwhelming majority of people had stable lives and the country was fairly stable. Ruled with a iron fist, but apart from the occasional outburst and response, it was stable.
     
  19. DavidCC

    DavidCC Master of Arts

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    "Ruled with a iron fist, but apart from the occasional outburst and response, it was stable."

    are you implying that Saddam's Iraq was a good place to live? is "stability" (what does that mean exacty?) the most important characteristic of a society?
     
  20. DavidCC

    DavidCC Master of Arts

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    I meant that, from the descriptions I heard on TV and read, I expected something much more violent, like being held underwater or something. Sure this is probably terrifying but I don't think it is as terrible as it was made out to be by some people. Compared to being starved, beaten, and beheaded on camera, this is really minor.

    And if doing this to some people prevents other people from being murdered, then so be it.123
     

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