What does your art do poorly?

[Andrew Green]

Time for some honesty, what is it that your art just doesn't do very well? And yes, there is something, probably a few things.

There is far too much "Mine is the best for everything" attitude in the martial arts, probably partially responsible for some of the style vs style nonsense. IMO part of knowing what you do well, is part of knowing what you do poorly. So lets be honest, what system do you do, and what does it suck at?

Anyone that says "Nothing" gets 10 lashes for lieing

 

[bushidomartialarts]

kenpo generally doesn't have much ground fighting, though many kenpo schools have added curriculum to alleviate that.

kenpo has very little breathing, energy or meditation work.

kenpo doesn't do much in terms of ethical development, at least not as canonically taught.

kenpo places too much emphasis on gross bodily harm.

 

[fnorfurfoot]

kenpo generally doesn't have much ground fighting, though many kenpo schools have added curriculum to alleviate that.

kenpo has very little breathing, energy or meditation work.

kenpo doesn't do much in terms of ethical development, at least not as canonically taught.

kenpo places too much emphasis on gross bodily harm.

I will have to agree with you for the most part. Our ground fighting is practically non-existent and the ethical development is sorely lacking. I try my best to teach my students proper breathing.

What is wrong with gross bodily harm?
verkill: :wink:

 

[bushidomartialarts]

What is wrong with gross bodily harm?

nothing, as long as i'm the harmer and not the harmee.

seriously though. other arts i've studied spend at least some time examining ways to avoid having to hurt somebody. the four kenpokas i've trained under never even mentioned the idea.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

kenpo generally doesn't have much ground fighting, though many kenpo schools have added curriculum to alleviate that.

Agreed.

kenpo has very little breathing, energy or meditation work.

Depends on your branch of Kenpo and on your instructor. Tracy's schools and schools in their lineage teach Book Set (Panther) and Tiger & Crane Katas where there is a lot of emphasis on breathing. My school, which was not affiliated with Tracy's did these Katas and we also began and ended every class with meditation.

kenpo doesn't do much in terms of ethical development, at least not as canonically taught.

EPAK schools teach "creeds" for each belt. If you think Kenpo doesn't do much in terms of ethical development, you need to visit some boxing gyms or BJJ clubs.

kenpo places too much emphasis on gross bodily harm.

This is relative. Compared to joint-manipulation arts like Aiki-Jujitsu or weapons arts like Arnis, I disagree. Compared to Tai Chi, sure.

 

[tshadowchaser]

My instructor never liked to teach any ground fighting even if he himslef had studied Judo. In the later years of his life he had even backed away from letting his students use many throws.
I am not sure my system teaches tolerance for students who do not listen

 

[exile]

OK, so first off, my art doesn't do anything, well or poorly. I'm the one who does, well or poorly; the art gives me principles, strategies and tactics.

So then, does the art come up short in any principles, strategies or tactics?
I don't think so: TKD is, in my dojang and my interpretation of the art, Korean Shotokan Karate. I have a ton of hand/arm techs available; an expanded repertoire of kicks, primarily administered as low finishing strikes; a nice set of throws, locks and sweeps to set up those strikes, and an overall strategy that aims at incapacitating my opponent, possibly very severely, with every move. It doesn't have a ground game, in the sense of moves to implement a strategy for fighting on the ground, but that's because it offers resources to help me get off the ground sooner than my oppo should I find myself there, and leave him lying on it. If I'm good enough to implement these techs, I don't need techs to deal with staying on the ground. If I'm not, then I'm not training right, not training realistically enough, my strikes and tech flow isn't up to snuff, and I better start working harder.

My version of TKD emphasizes inflicting serious body damage to an attacker and lets me limit or maximize that damage to whatever degree of severity seems wise to me. If I train its resources hard and well, I don't think there's anything I'd need in a realistic setting that's not there. If I don't, then I'll pay for it; but I won't blame the art for my laziness or technical shortcomings.

 

[Andrew Green]

OK, so first off, my art doesn't do anything, well or poorly.

10 lashes

 

[exile]

10 lashes

OK, no argument... but I get to choose the weapon, right?

 

[bluemtn]

OK, so first off, my art doesn't do anything, well or poorly. I'm the one who does, well or poorly; the art gives me principles, strategies and tactics.

So then, does the art come up short in any principles, strategies or tactics?
I don't think so: TKD is, in my dojang and my interpretation of the art, Korean Shotokan Karate. I have a ton of hand/arm techs available; an expanded repertoire of kicks, primarily administered as low finishing strikes; a nice set of throws, locks and sweeps to set up those strikes, and an overall strategy that aims at incapacitating my opponent, possibly very severely, with every move. It doesn't have a ground game, in the sense of moves to implement a strategy for fighting on the ground, but that's because it offers resources to help me get off the ground sooner than my oppo should I find myself there, and leave him lying on it. If I'm good enough to implement these techs, I don't need techs to deal with staying on the ground. If I'm not, then I'm not training right, not training realistically enough, my strikes and tech flow isn't up to snuff, and I better start working harder.

My version of TKD emphasizes inflicting serious body damage to an attacker and lets me limit or maximize that damage to whatever degree of severity seems wise to me. If I train its resources hard and well, I don't think there's anything I'd need in a realistic setting that's not there. If I don't, then I'll pay for it; but I won't blame the art for my laziness or technical shortcomings.

Actually, I'm with exile- but also a little different. It can also have something to do with the instruction at a particular school. I'm not putting down where I practice, but still. There could be more hands on training with self defense, more coverage with take- downs and throws... That's all I can think of right now. We do go over those areas some, but I feel there could be more- at least just to cement it more into the brain.

 

[Andrew Green]

Another 10 lashes, you TKD peoples are taking a beating

Clinch work? Ground Work? Submission? Escaping Submissions? Takedown defence? Weapons fighting? Restraining a person without injury or pain compliance?

None of those areas are weak in TKD?

I don't mean completely absent neccessarily, just weak.

 

[bluemtn]

Another 10 lashes, you TKD peoples are taking a beating

Clinch work? Ground Work? Submission? Escaping Submissions? Takedown defence? Weapons fighting? Restraining a person without injury or pain compliance?

None of those areas are weak in TKD?

I don't mean completely absent neccessarily, just weak.

That's more of what I was aiming at- not left out, just not enough of...

 

[tellner]

Sera isn't at its best at ground work. So our teacher adds in some Minangkabau Harimau which specializes in it.

 

[CuongNhuka]

This is what is generaly agreed upon by people in Cuong Nhu, and those who have met an expert at either a seminar or tournament (we tend to do very well, but thats a story for anouther time).
Pros:
Hand and leg tehcniques: Amazing (Boxing and Wing Chun for hands Shotokan and Vovinam for legs).
Grappling: Well, I'll just say that when you put Judo and Aikido together, you get a beautiful thing.
Weapons: Vietnamese stick fighting, it's a good thing
Foot work: Impressive, at times scary (Vietnam is big into foot work).
Applications: stressed (esspecially at the higher levels, when you get into Tai Chi)
'I don't care if I lose this tournament, because my life doesn't depend on it'-ness: High
Sense of community in and out of the style: also stressed

Cons:
Time: Your looking at 6 years to get a black belt
Availabity: Low outside of Florida. Lower out side U.S. (one in Germany, France, and Venezuala respectivily)
Process: At times annonying
Tests: Hard as heck (it's meant to be that way)

answer questions?

 

[tellner]

answer questions?

Not really. You've talked about what you see as the strengths. Then you've taken the typical self-congratulatory trick of saying "The downside? We work way too hard. Harder than any of you."

What are the weaknesses and holes in what you do? No art can be everything to everyone, so they must be there.

 

[Carol]

Sera isn't at its best at ground work. So our teacher adds in some Minangkabau Harimau which specializes in it.

Harimaaaauuu!!!

What I'm finding is that my style(s) really lack a way to get in to fighting shape. It's got empty-hand fighting, weapons fighting, ground fighting but migod those harimau stances are bruuuuuuutal.

Plus, I think fitness is a very important component of being a fighter.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Cons:
Time: Your looking at 6 years to get a black belt
Availabity: Low outside of Florida. Lower out side U.S. (one in Germany, France, and Venezuala respectivily)
Process: At times annonying
Tests: Hard as heck (it's meant to be that way)

Tellner these are the disadvantages. Because Cuong Nhu teaches as much material as it does it takes a long time to progress in rank. This limits how many qualified instructors there are, and limits availabitly. Because of the length between tests the process is kinda annonying.
is that better? or am i still "self-congratulatory"?

 

[Carol]

Tellner these are the disadvantages. Because Cuong Nhu teaches as much material as it does it takes a long time to progress in rank. This limits how many qualified instructors there are, and limits availabitly. Because of the length between tests the process is kinda annonying.
is that better? or am i still "self-congratulatory"?

I didn't really see it as self-congratulatory, Cuong Nhuka. You are saying these are the disadvantages of the system. That's reading to me as if you would rather have a wider base of fellow students to network with and perhaps you wish that the tests weren't so brutal to get you to the same place as many of your counterparts in other arts. Hope I'm not putting words in your mouth.

 

[bluemtn]

Harimaaaauuu!!!

What I'm finding is that my style(s) really lack a way to get in to fighting shape. It's got empty-hand fighting, weapons fighting, ground fighting but migod those harimau stances are bruuuuuuutal.

Plus, I think fitness is a very important component of being a fighter.

I think fitness is quite important. At least, being as fit as you can be. Everyone has different fitness levels, too. Also, those stances will strengthen legs.

 

[tellner]

For fitness you might want to look at Scott Sonnon's material -

http://rmaxinternational.com

He started with the best that you could get from the Big Red Sports Machine - Sambo, exercise science, and so on. He has done a lot of really, really good material for general fitness and activity-specific fitness, especially MA. a number of people whom I really respect are wild about his stuff, and I have to say that FlowFit, clubbells, Ageless Mobility and some of the other material is very, very good.