What are some differences between Karate and Taekwondo?

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by NinjaChristian, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    This is only true if you choose to select a snippet out of volumes and then offer it up as a classic "Straw man" flawed argument while ignoring his own statements to the contrary. . He explicitly sates that no one person or country can take credit for discovering Martial Art techniques. He analogizes it to the discovery of fire or invention of the wheel.
     
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  2. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    Interesting analogy. Critiques of Al Gore deride him for saying he invented the internet which is a misquote of something he said taken out of context. Prototype uses the same flawed logical reasoning. Big difference is that Isaccson (Who also wrote the Jobs authorized Bio) relates in his book "Innovators" , that the people truly behind inventing the internet credit Gores political initiative (which is what he said) to making the net become a reality.
     
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  3. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

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    I have this theory about taekkyon, but mind you this is pure conjecture on my part.

    Suppose that we as little children were told stories about King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, and when playing outside we turned sticks into swords and played at being knights, etc. Then some invaders came along and said, "You're not allowed to tell those stories or play like that any more. What you can do is tell stories of kenjutsu and play at kendo swords."

    Then 35 years later, we're allowed to play however we want, and tell whatever stories we want. I suppose our children who grew up playing nothing but kendo would still play at kendo, but as adults we might try to recreate a tradition of what we remember from our youths about King Arthur and medieval knights. "Here kid, let me show you how Lancelot would have done it..."

    Is it possible that when taekwondo pioneers returned from Japan with karate, but wanted to recreate a tradition of Korean martial arts, they turned to their childhood memories and said, "Well, there was this one thing called taekkyon that I saw as a child at festivals, and that my grandparents would tell me stories about...but it was mostly fancy kicking." Is it possible that that's why early pioneers opted to emphasize and expand upon the kicking aspects of karate more than anything else?

    In other words, I'm not saying that there's a shred of taekkyon technique in taekwondo, but maybe there's some taekkyon inspiration in taekwondo?

    Of course we'll never know what was going on inside the heads of the early taekwondo pioneers, so my conjecture is completely unprovable. But I wonder if maybe the people who claim a little bit of taekkyon heritage for taekwondo aren't completely nuts.
     
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  4. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    It is an interesting idea. I don't have the magazine in front of me right now but I read an article with Gen. Choi in which he states that his calligraphy teacher mostly told him stories about Taekkyon, with some basic instruction. It is interesting to note that Gen. Choi never claimed to have "mastered" Taekkyon.

    That being said there are some techniques in ITF Taekwon-Do that resemble, to my eye at any rate, Taekkyon techniques (twisting kick, side checking kick, front checking kick, foot tackling, etc.). If they aren't the result of a direct influence of Taekkyon then it would seem that they were developed from a common cultural inclination towards the use of the feet in combat.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
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  5. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Or, equally likely, those who were attempting to recreate taekkyon borrowed these techniques from TKD. So TKD doesn't resemble taekkyon. Taekkyon resembles TKD.
     
  6. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

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    Agreed, equally possible.
     
  7. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    Oh, sure, and I have heard such speculation before. It does seem very likely that KKWTKD has exercised some influence on Taekkyon simply due to the fact that so many people practice it before moving on to other arts. I think the bigger influence of TKD on Taekkyon, however, has been in re-presenting it as a martial art as opposed to a folk sport/game.

    I have, however, seen video of Song Duk Ki performing Taekkyon techniques which are similar if not the same as the ones I mentioned in my post. Since he's usually accepted as the source of the rebirth of Taekkyon in SK, and wasn't involved in Taekwon-Do, it really is a question of where did Gen. Choi and his associates get those techniques. Did they independently come up with them themselves (which is certainly possible) or was there influence from some Taekkyon practitioners? It's an interesting aspect of the development of Taekwon-Do which I have not seen anyone address really because they don't focus on those techniques, talking mainly about the influence of Japanese karate to the exclusion of any other possibility.

    As an aside, this blog post about the similarities of Taekkyon's and Taekwon-Do's kinaesthetics is interesting. Soo Shim Kwan 水心館수심관: Sine Wave Motion & Korean Kinesthetics

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  8. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    That is all there is in his books as well, He went to learn Calligraphy and the calligraphy teacher introduced him to Taekkyon. Somewher along the line the haters blow this out of proportion to create "straw man" argument to tear apart.

    Current thought is that the elements of Taekkyon are lost to history. So, did his calligraphy teacher fabricate the story? How much does it really matter?
     
  9. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    Off the top of my head the only other Kwan founder who I know who mentioned Taekkkyon was Hwang, Kee (in an interview that was published in TKDTimes circa 1987, or thereabouts). IIRC GM Hwang says he saw people practicing Taekkyon in a park when he was young and it inspired him to become interested in martial arts. I don't recall him claiming he trained in it at all, though. I've never seen or heard any accounts of Taekkyon's influence from any of the other Kwan founders, though that doesn't mean there wasn't any.

    [quot]Current thought is that the elements of Taekkyon are lost to history.[/quote]

    Perhaps, although it's pretty well accepted that Song Duk Ki taught at least some people authentic Taekkyon, which became the basis for today's Taekkyon.

    I couldn't say for sure since Han Il Dong is no longer available to interview. Or Gen. Choi, for that matter. It is things like this that make me wish people had thought to do more historical research while the primary players were still alive. I don't think it matters if Taekkyon techniques were used in the development of Taekwon-Do, but I do think it played a part as an indigenous Korean martial art in inspiring Gen. Choi to develop his own martial art.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  10. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    And the claim was:

    "
    Page 295

    His father sent him to study calligraphy under a well known teacher Mr. Han Il-Dong. ...

    Mr. Han, a great calligrapher, was also a veteran of the ancient T’ae-Kyon. ...

    Mr. Han taught him T’ae-Kyon besides calligraphy. Thus it came about in 1936 the author took up T’ae-Kyon, which was consisting solely of foot maneuvers.

    Then his father sent him to Japan.... After one and a half year in prepatory school...he went on to High School and then university in Tokyo,, he returned home in 1943............ "

    So, in 1936 he studied calligraphy and T'ae-Kyon in Korea then went to Japan, and there he spent 1.5 years in Prep school, High School, University, certainly does not allude to much time that could have been spent with the calligraphy guy in Korea.

    Further, he refers to himself as the founder of at one time Tae Kwon Do, or Taekwon-Do, but not Taekwondo.

    So, whatever you consider silly, is just fine. But if you want to make your case the out of context snippets has not helped you.
     
  11. Prototype

    Prototype Orange Belt

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    No, this is what he claimed originally.

    Chapter 4. A brief history of TaeKwon-Do

    "Taekkyon, the ancient name of TaeKwon-Do, was as old as the history of the Hwarang-Do."

    "During the Japanese occupation, after the Yi Dynasti, the hand technique was introduced from both China and Japan, enabling the hand and foot techniques to be combined into one one body under various names such as: Tang-Su, Kong-Su, Karate.."

    "Soon after the liberation in 1945, there was a movement to find the real name of this art. In 1955 a special board of many TaeKwon-Do masters, historians and promiment leaders was formed to solve this problem"

    "In 1955 at the session for naming, the term worded in "Tae" and "Kwon" which I submitted was chosen unanimously among the many other ballots."

    TaeKwon-Do, the art of self defence. 1965.

    He was thus either a delusional nutcase or a con man. Not only does he claim that Taekwon-Do is Taekkyon, but that it's also Karate.

     
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
  12. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    Not delusional. Your quote of the passage while accurate in isolation is another example of your tactic to use a snippet as a straw man. He is simply using Taekkyon, and TaeKwon-Do as generic names for Korean Hand and Foot fighting. Saying that Taekkyon was an ancient name and TKD a modern one. Certainly, had he thought some 50 years later some myopic critic would use a passage in isolation as a critique it could have been more artfuly worded.
     
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  13. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

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    Prototype..I have to agree. You seem to be grasping at straws here to prove a point. Worse, it's not even clear what point you're trying to prove.

    For the sake of this thread, could you recap exactly what your thesis is? Is it your thesis that Choi was schizophrenic? Or is it your thesis that taekwondo is just karate? At this point, I can't even figure out what it is that you're trying to prove.
     
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  14. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    I third this, Prototype, your point is purely subjective and the language you are using to make it detracts from the objectivity and therefore the credibility of your view.

    It is likely that Choi had many and complex reasons for writing the text in the way he did, most of which are understandable when viewed in the context of the time and place of writing.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
     
  15. Prototype

    Prototype Orange Belt

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    Choi openly stated that the foot techniques in Karate are from Taekkyon, and later made conflicting statements once South Korea wanted no part of him. Then he was suddenly the creator of TKD, the father even. Taekkyon in later encyclopedias has very little to do with TaekKwon-Do, aside from a historical perspective, according to the SAME author. Contradicts himself depending on era and motives.
     
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  16. Prototype

    Prototype Orange Belt

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    That doesn't exuse the fact that held a warped view of history, or simply tried to propagandize his own nationalistic interests. The latter is most likely.
     
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  17. Prototype

    Prototype Orange Belt

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    I was subjected to X, and can therefore deceive the public.

    I will have to remember that one.
     
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  18. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

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    So what you're saying is... General Choi was using spin to promote taekwondo.
     
  19. Prototype

    Prototype Orange Belt

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    Well, duh. The only legitimate Taekwondo is the one you train, Kukkikwon. At least KKW as of today. It is a completely separate art to any Karate style in terms of the main techniques. I have trained too. The Chang Hon/ITF chambering is identical to Shotokan. To put it in laymens terms: They kick the same as Shotokan. Congrats, Mr legit.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
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  20. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Gosh you mean they all kick with their legs! Wow, that's a revelation! All this time I thought TKD were kicking with their arms which made them different from karate, now I've learnt they kick with their legs just like us.............. I shall have to go lie down this is all too much at once for me.........
     
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