Western Boxing

[bscastro]

To piggyback on tmanifold said. I think that one of the points was that boxing practices their techniques against partners/opponents who resist 100%. I think we can incorporate this in our training.

I'm going to steal a quote from Burton Richardson when I met him. When you lift weights, you don't just start off with 500 pounds on the bar. Same thing with martial arts, fighting...you don't start with your partner resisting totally. But as the drills, techniques get easier to apply because you've learned them, your partner has to put up some resistance. This all ends up with full-contact sparring (within safety of course).

Check out Straightblast Gym . Matt Thornton has more insightful things to say about Sport vs. Street as well as resistance in training.

Good training to all,
Bryan

 

[Zujitsuka]

bcastro, we are in agreement that Matt Thornton handles the "street v. sport" debate very well. Also, it seems that a lot of people get caught up in 'my art is better than your art' thing. However, I humbly submit that it is not a matter of what art you practice, but HOW you practice. If there isn't any hard contact and a resisting, motivated opponent, you cannot truly gauge and improve your martial skills.

All the best.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by KennethKu
LIKE I SAID, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DIFFERENT GROUPS OF MARTIAL ART PRACTITIONERS.

If you insist on comparing trained boxers vs soccer moms, then this whole discussion is indeed a true waste of time.

Nice waffle.

Anyway, even at the soccor mom and teen black belt level boxers at the same level would school them. ie Average karateka vs average boxer.

If you want to go more hardcore then you have the more hardcore boxers who would still school them. ie - the pros.

At each level, on the whole the boxer eats the karateka up. End of story.

Boxers do a lot more than you think anyway. Your thoughts that they would be wide open as you think below the waist is moronic. Sure boxers can be beat but you're living with your head either up your @ss or in the sand thinking the way you do. Either way, I could care less because you're entitled to be wrong all you want in a free society.

This conversation is finished.

 

[arnisador]

There's also a paper-scissors-rock effect to consider. A boxer might beat a karateka, but the karateka might beat a person with a weapon, whereas the person with the weapon might defeat the boxer. For example, while a boxer might well take out a FMA person one-on-one, the FMA person would have a much better chance against a trained knife fighter than the boxer (though going up against a trained knife fighter is a horrendously bad situation to be in).

One doesn't choose the martial arts over boxing just because of who would win one-on-one; there's weapons, multiple attackers, etc., plus the issue that boxing can be hard on a body. I'm sure no one picked fights with Muhammed Ali in the day, but was it worth it to end up with Parkisonianism? Karate might be tough on the joints but it protects one's health in ways that boxing, as usually practiced, cannot. If you don't live in a high-threat environment there's a real issue as to whether it's worth the risk of being injured in training in order to keep from being injured in a fight.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by GouRonin

Nice waffle.

Anyway, even at the soccor mom and teen black belt level boxers at the same level would school them. ie Average karateka vs average boxer.

If you want to go more hardcore then you have the more hardcore boxers who would still school them. ie - the pros.

At each level, on the whole the boxer eats the karateka up. End of story.

Boxers do a lot more than you think anyway. Your thoughts that they would be wide open as you think below the waist is moronic. Sure boxers can be beat but you're living with your head either up your @ss or in the sand thinking the way you do. Either way, I could care less because you're entitled to be wrong all you want in a free society.

This conversation is finished.

Nice waffle is your absurd statement about most boxers will kill most MArtists. That is only because 1. most of the MArtists you know SUCK. 2. Your own MA training sucks when compare to the average boxing.

What is moronic is an idiot who is confusing soccer moms with a true TKD/KT/JKD expert.

May be you should sign up for TKD/KT/JKD lesson so that you don't pee in you pants every time you see a boxer.

Like I said, if you can't kick then just admit it. Just b/c you kick like Oprah, don't assume others kick like you. Just b/c your MA training sucks, don't project that onto everyone else.


Any competent MArtist would have a field day going up against a boxer.

The only one who pees in his pants, namely you sir, has to be b/c you can't kick! LOL Try learning a MA that trains you legs, and stop whining.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by GouRonin

......At each level, on the whole the boxer eats the karateka up. End of story............/B]

Here is the proof that you don't know jack sh!t about karate.

That statement is a testament to total ignorance. Thankyou for revealing yourself.

 

[KennethKu]

I apologize to the readers who read this thread, for resorting to verbal attack. Unfortunately my repeated avoidance of direct retaliation has failed to discourage continued personal attack.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Guys, if you feel the need to exchange insults, please take it to email or PM. If you can't prove your point without resorting to insults and namecalling, then perhaps your point can't be proven.


With all things being equal, either side could take the other. When things are not equal, then training, skill, luck and conditioning will be the deciding factor. Any argument over who is superior will only result in heavy opinions and heat. A boxer will punch harder than most martial artists. A TKDer will have better kicks than most boxers. A Grappler will have a better ground game than a boxer. Most boxers have better conditioning than most MAists. Does it really matter? The reason why we have 2000+ different arts is because someone wanted to focus on something. ALL! arts have strong and weak points. The key is understanding where your -primary- arts weakness is, and complementing it with something that strengthens your weaknesses while reinforcing your strengths.

We are all supposed to be somewhat professionals...lets act like it.

If we can not return this thread to a serious content discussion, we will be forced to lock it. I'd prefer not to as there has been some real good information presented.


Take the personal issues private.
Thank you.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

....... A boxer will punch harder than most martial artists. A TKDer will have better kicks than most boxers. A Grappler will have a better ground game than a boxer.....

THAT is exactly what I said in a previous post, that you don't go box a boxer NOR wrestle a wrestler. And yet, people keep arguing how good a boxer is at boxing. And about how a boxer can beat a soccer mom . Geee ! DUH!!! Say something we haven't heard of! :shrug:

The debate didn't started with the average boxer vs the average MArtist. The debate started over the absurd statement that "most boxers will kill most MArtists" . That statement is simply false.

Most boxers can beat most soccer mom type MArtists. But most boxers will LOSE to most Martial Art EXPERTS. By that I am referring to TKD /KT/JKD experts who can kick. May be most boxers will just plug Stalin's Pigeons. LOL I don't know .

A TKD kick that can break 3-5 boards easily , is going to dispatch your boxer's knees in no time. Here is a direct quote from tmaniford's own website :

"..The Knee Kick
This can be done either as a front kick, as in the picture, or a side kick. Both are extremely effective, it takes very little strength to break a knee......."

If people don't know this, I am truly shocked.


No body says boxing is useless. JKD incorporates a lot of boxing techniques for its efficiency. Boxing has great conditioning methods and realistic sparring. No one disputes that every serious MArtist should incorporate Boxing conditioning as part of his/her training. That is painfully obvious.

It is equally obvious that there are a lot of McDojo and plenty of fake MArtists who are basically hobbyists. And there are probably alot of so called martial artists who have practiced a few months of some whacky MA called 7ShootingStar or 18WhitehorsePalms or PrayingWhiteCrane, taught by a couple of part time Chinese cooks moonlighting as sifu or sigung or some secret heir to these ultra secret MA, descended directly from a non existing WhiteTiger Heavanly Temple stuck in some secret valley north of HeilungJiang in China. Sheeze. We all know that these are UNTESTED UNPROVEN with dubious credibility. THere is no point in bringing them into the equation.

It is equally painfully obvious that most MA experts will be at a disadvantage, if they step into the ring to box a boxer under boxing rules.

And most TKD/KT/JKD experts will have a field day coming up against a boxer, in a real fight outside the ring. It is like a dream come through.

All these are so obvious.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

You hit on several key points there:

It is equally painfully obvious that most MA experts will be at a disadvantage, if they step into the ring to box a boxer under boxing rules.

And most TKD/KT/JKD experts will have a field day coming up against a boxer, in a real fight outside the ring. It is like a dream come through.

Its been said that every 'group' creates rules that favor itself. I see this as no different. I've trained in several styles..done sparing in several too. The Kenpo school I used to frequent would limit your targets to the upper torso, minus the head. Punch only. The Arnis school I activly train in now on the other hand allows a lot more freedom in movement and targeting. We wear a lot more safety gear to allow for this though. Still pull the impact though. When we do bag/pad work we hit a lot harder.

I see the MA vs boxer issue as this : The boxer can take more impact and will hit harder. The MA will not necesarily hit as hard, however he may hit more important spots that will neutralize the boxers power. Again, we can look at it from all angles and still come up at a draw. If we play the game of 'you hit then I hit" well, I think the boxer will come out ahead, although I believe many Karate styles can go toe-to-toe no problem. I recently watch Frank Trejo do a sparing clinic at a Kenpo camp...He's worked with boxers, and mentioned some of their weaknesses... even so, I don't care how fancy the kick or punch is, if you cant avoid it, cant block it, cant deflect it and can't absorb it, then, youre gonna hurt. I've seen 3rd degree -experienced- competition MA folks KO-d by an 8yr ol cuz they hit -just right-.

Its all in the training and conditioning. 1 lucky shot though....
I dont care what the art is, if you only do it 45 minutes a week, youre gonna finish way behind the guy doing it 8 hrs a day.

Serious boxers and serious MAists train regularly and seriously... the hobbiests do it 2x a week if Bonanzas not on.


and I'm ending here cuz I lost my train of thought...heh.:asian:

 

[sweeper]

if you don't go full power it isn't even close to UFC, judo kid I realy suggest you head up to kirkland for a day and see if you can spar at AMC, "Well i do UFC fights with my friends and we really go at it , some of my friends take TKD some do boxing some do kung fu, ETC" UFC is a specific organisation with specific rules, what you do sounds more like dog brothers sparring with no sticks : )

(edit) Almost forgot, Gou I looked in gray's anatomy and it is physicly imposable for your jaw bone to nock into your brain.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Baoquan



please, educate me.

Baoquan.

Professional competition... I doubt they are prized MT fighters, name a couple of them. Also, sport style is different from military versions, so depending on rules, a sport style CAN have an advantage over the other. In real life, the advantage is never there against experienced fighters.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Zujitsuka

bcastro, we are in agreement that Matt Thornton handles the "street v. sport" debate very well. Also, it seems that a lot of people get caught up in 'my art is better than your art' thing. However, I humbly submit that it is not a matter of what art you practice, but HOW you practice. If there isn't any hard contact and a resisting, motivated opponent, you cannot truly gauge and improve your martial skills.

All the best.

Everybody listen to him, he is wise, it was what I was saying all along.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by GouRonin



Nice waffle.

Anyway, even at the soccor mom and teen black belt level boxers at the same level would school them. ie Average karateka vs average boxer.

If you want to go more hardcore then you have the more hardcore boxers who would still school them. ie - the pros.

At each level, on the whole the boxer eats the karateka up. End of story.

Boxers do a lot more than you think anyway. Your thoughts that they would be wide open as you think below the waist is moronic. Sure boxers can be beat but you're living with your head either up your @ss or in the sand thinking the way you do. Either way, I could care less because you're entitled to be wrong all you want in a free society.

This conversation is finished.

Judging from where you're from, I doubt you have seen any art other than boxing or wrestling in its true form, because you are probably used to McDojo practitioners or people who think they're all at it.

If it was true, how did Cheung beat a prized boxer?

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Guys, if you feel the need to exchange insults, please take it to email or PM. If you can't prove your point without resorting to insults and namecalling, then perhaps your point can't be proven.


With all things being equal, either side could take the other. When things are not equal, then training, skill, luck and conditioning will be the deciding factor. Any argument over who is superior will only result in heavy opinions and heat. A boxer will punch harder than most martial artists. A TKDer will have better kicks than most boxers. A Grappler will have a better ground game than a boxer. Most boxers have better conditioning than most MAists. Does it really matter? The reason why we have 2000+ different arts is because someone wanted to focus on something. ALL! arts have strong and weak points. The key is understanding where your -primary- arts weakness is, and complementing it with something that strengthens your weaknesses while reinforcing your strengths.

We are all supposed to be somewhat professionals...lets act like it.

If we can not return this thread to a serious content discussion, we will be forced to lock it. I'd prefer not to as there has been some real good information presented.


Take the personal issues private.
Thank you.

Actually, the conditioning for boxers isn't better than anyone dedicated enough. Of course, boxers watch their diet on taking 5g of protein for every pound of muscle, etc., but both Eastern and Western martial artists do a lot of conditioning. I remember when I was younger I had to run up a pretty decent-sized mountain in Korea. Not snow-capped, but it was pretty high. Oh yeah, we carried a small log from a string and worked up bigger and bigger. We also ran 30 miles in the morning. I also remember running in the morning for wrestling camp in the US, and doing lots of cardio for boxing. So it's not really a matter of art. You can't just say boxers train harder than wrestlers and visa versa.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by KennethKu




THAT is exactly what I said in a previous post, that you don't go box a boxer NOR wrestle a wrestler. And yet, people keep arguing how good a boxer is at boxing. And about how a boxer can beat a soccer mom . Geee ! DUH!!! Say something we haven't heard of! :shrug:

The debate didn't started with the average boxer vs the average MArtist. The debate started over the absurd statement that "most boxers will kill most MArtists" . That statement is simply false.

Most boxers can beat most soccer mom type MArtists. But most boxers will LOSE to most Martial Art EXPERTS. By that I am referring to TKD /KT/JKD experts who can kick. May be most boxers will just plug Stalin's Pigeons. LOL I don't know .

A TKD kick that can break 3-5 boards easily , is going to dispatch your boxer's knees in no time. Here is a direct quote from tmaniford's own website :

"..The Knee Kick
This can be done either as a front kick, as in the picture, or a side kick. Both are extremely effective, it takes very little strength to break a knee......."

If people don't know this, I am truly shocked.


No body says boxing is useless. JKD incorporates a lot of boxing techniques for its efficiency. Boxing has great conditioning methods and realistic sparring. No one disputes that every serious MArtist should incorporate Boxing conditioning as part of his/her training. That is painfully obvious.

It is equally obvious that there are a lot of McDojo and plenty of fake MArtists who are basically hobbyists. And there are probably alot of so called martial artists who have practiced a few months of some whacky MA called 7ShootingStar or 18WhitehorsePalms or PrayingWhiteCrane, taught by a couple of part time Chinese cooks moonlighting as sifu or sigung or some secret heir to these ultra secret MA, descended directly from a non existing WhiteTiger Heavanly Temple stuck in some secret valley north of HeilungJiang in China. Sheeze. We all know that these are UNTESTED UNPROVEN with dubious credibility. THere is no point in bringing them into the equation.

It is equally painfully obvious that most MA experts will be at a disadvantage, if they step into the ring to box a boxer under boxing rules.

And most TKD/KT/JKD experts will have a field day coming up against a boxer, in a real fight outside the ring. It is like a dream come through.

All these are so obvious.

Boxing, used correctly, can defeat any person of any art(s). This is true with ALL arts. Ever seen Sugar Ray move? Almost as graceful as Bruce Lee and was poetry in motion. Using that kind of footwork can allow you to overcome many opponents.

 

[KennethKu]

Well, you need to define "used correctly". B/c "in theory" and "ideally", "used correctly" everything works. That may be little more than philosophical value. That is NOT TAKING into consideration of real practical use.

Ok, now what is the first line of attack in JKD? Low side kick to the shin or the knee. Every time the boxer attacks, he makes his lower body within range of a kick before he is in range to throw a punch. (Proper side kick involves you leaning away from the target, rendering your upper body out of the opponent's range. ) That is a built in disadvantage for the boxer.

Footwork alone is not enough to compensate that as the competent MA has his/her own footwork to counter and manage the strike range too.

 

[Baoquan]

Originally posted by MArtialArtist

Professional competition... I doubt they are prized MT fighters, name a couple of them. Also, sport style is different from military versions, so depending on rules, a sport style CAN have an advantage over the other. In real life, the advantage is never there against experienced fighters.

Ok...Ex-World Champion boxer Lester Ellis retired from boxing, then four years later tried his hand at kickboxing...but was the kind of fighter that threw his requisite number of kicks and then did mostly handwork.

He fought 3 times, knocking the first two out, then fighting current World Champ Steve Douett (giving up 14 years to him!!), losing to a split points decision, that many in the crowd deserved to go to Ellis (i was not one of them....i think Douett deserved the win).

Steve Douett is a prized thai style MT fighter, who couldn't lay any real power on Ellis for the entire fight...

So...is a world champion considered a good enough opponent for a trad boxer to tackle??

This is AGAIN, not to say western boxing is superior to MT, but that a competent western boxer can compete with and defeat
competant MT fighters.

Cheers

Baoquan.

 

[J-kid]

Yeah might go up there. Thinking of joining kenpo, On the side of Judo/JiJutsu, Got to work hard on my Judo Jijutsu, was working with A bjj guy today at my gym was fun. Your friend Judo-kid

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by sweeper
(edit) Almost forgot, Gou I looked in gray's anatomy and it is physicly imposable for your jaw bone to nock into your brain.

That isn't what causes a knock out. The jaw hinge is hammered back to where it is hinged and that point is at the base of the skull. The concussive shockwave is the result that causes a KO.

Picture this. Put your elbow against your friend. Make a fist then hit the end of the fist. The energy travels to the person you have your elbow against.