T
Taiji fan
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just a quick question...
what weapons are you taiji people working with......and do you have a preference?
what weapons are you taiji people working with......and do you have a preference?
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lvwhitebir
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- #2
I've worked with the Straight Sword and I'm currently working on the Fan. My favorite, of course, is the sword.
WhiteBirch
WhiteBirch
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Taiji fan
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- #3
What style of fan and sword do you work with........why is sword your favourite! 
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TkdWarrior
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- #4
i like Taiji broadsword... why dunno? i just feel like it belongs to me
-TkdWarrior-
-TkdWarrior-
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chufeng
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- #5
I have a question for those who use weapons...
Why?
What do you get out of it?
Do you really think you'll ever use a bladed weapon in actual combat?
Personally, I train with Staff, Broadsword, Spear, and Straight Sword...I have my reasons, but I am curious as to why others train with weapons.
:asian:
chufeng
Why?
What do you get out of it?
Do you really think you'll ever use a bladed weapon in actual combat?
Personally, I train with Staff, Broadsword, Spear, and Straight Sword...I have my reasons, but I am curious as to why others train with weapons.
:asian:
chufeng
In Tai Chi I've always heard it as for strength (sword, staff, etc., not fan)--basically, the Tai Chi version of weightlifting.
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lvwhitebir
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- #7
Originally posted by Taiji fan
What style of fan and sword do you work with........why is sword your favourite!
I do Yang style. The fan is more of a combined set, I think, not so traditional. But it's still interesting. The sword is probably my favorite for two reasons, one was because it was my first TC weapon, and the second is because it's more "manly" than the fan. I probably look silly doing the fan form.
WhiteBirch
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lvwhitebir
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- #8
I don't train with weapons for combat in TC. The same with my Kung Fu. It's just a different aspect of training that gives me additional insight. It's funny to see people that have worked out for years doing empty-hand forms just learning their first weapon. It's not as easy as you might think.
The progression at my school teaches the empty-hand form, standing Chi Kung, straight sword, then the two-person set. It gives you something to keep you growing.
WhiteBirch
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Taiji fan
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- #9
good question....I train in weapons for the skill level involved in working with a weapon, its a challenge to give the appearance of complete control no longer just of your body but to deal with the extra appendage (as in sword) and to control the structure and body requirments with the weapon....other than that its just cool. Would I be using a bladed weapon in combat...not this life time, maybe I am just hanging onto a past one :samurai:
Sword was my first weapon too and although it is probably still my favourite, I like working with fan. I like the staccato effect, cracking it open like a gun shot and then its closed before you realise what it you......the fan is a nice concealed weapon, you are delicately cooling yourself down and the next minute bang, its a formidable weapon....... I bet you don't look silly doing fan at all, I know plenty blokes who study fan and they all look 'fan' tastic pardon the pun!
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chufeng
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- #10
OK,
One said it shows control...
Another said it gives "insight" into the art...
Do any of you apply the lessons of the sword to empty hands?
Does the "extra appendage" translate into potential lines of force without the weapon?
:asian:
chufeng
One said it shows control...
Another said it gives "insight" into the art...
Do any of you apply the lessons of the sword to empty hands?
Does the "extra appendage" translate into potential lines of force without the weapon?
:asian:
chufeng
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Taiji fan
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- #11
the other way round, the sword is an extension of the barehand practice it has to keep exactly the same principles...
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theneuhauser
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- #12
ive only practiced with straight sword, spear and short stick from the taiji system. my teacher focused on chen and explained that the weapons allow you to direct energy through specific points, such as the tip of the jian.
all of the other weapons ive studied were from a hard approach and we generally saw them as balance and coordination aids. im sure this also applies to the soft technique as well.
all of the other weapons ive studied were from a hard approach and we generally saw them as balance and coordination aids. im sure this also applies to the soft technique as well.
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Taiji fan
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- #13
directing energy? I am concerntrating on the presiscion of the weapon...getting it and my body in the right place at the right time......there is so much talk of 'directing the energy' in taijiquan that people create all sorts of weird an wonderful ideas opn this....like one guy I knew used to contract one side of his anus in a bid to control and move his energy....I thought it was more likely he was talking out of his anus....what taijiquan students need to understand is that the energy (and I hate that term almost as much as Qi as they have both been responsible for bringing about the new age tai cheeee stuff) is activated when you body is lined up correctly and your timing is correct and your spirit is engaged. You don't have to visualise it moving or ...send energy anywhere correct practise does that for you.
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chufeng
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- #14
TaiJiFan,
Consider, for a moment, the possibility of the weapon showing you HOW to use your empty hand...
You are correct in stating that the principles of empty hand apply to the sword, with one exception...the sword creates its own force...How do we extend THAT idea to the empty hand???
Yes, it is a matter of control...
Yes, it is a matter of Yi (a very big component in both empty hand and weapons training)...
Does one strike with a knife hand? or, does one cut with a knife hand?
Does one strike with an immortal hand? or, does one pierce and thrust through the target with that open hand weapon?
Does the staff teach us anything about body position and throws? or, are we just pummeling the opponent?
Yi...
Body position...
Root...
These are some of the lessons the weapons teach...
Comments?
:asian:
chufeng
Consider, for a moment, the possibility of the weapon showing you HOW to use your empty hand...
You are correct in stating that the principles of empty hand apply to the sword, with one exception...the sword creates its own force...How do we extend THAT idea to the empty hand???
Yes, it is a matter of control...
Yes, it is a matter of Yi (a very big component in both empty hand and weapons training)...
Does one strike with a knife hand? or, does one cut with a knife hand?
Does one strike with an immortal hand? or, does one pierce and thrust through the target with that open hand weapon?
Does the staff teach us anything about body position and throws? or, are we just pummeling the opponent?
Yi...
Body position...
Root...
These are some of the lessons the weapons teach...
Comments?
:asian:
chufeng
OP
Taiji fan
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- Thread Starter
- #15
an interesting discussion.......let me do my best to answer your questions....although I am no 100% sure of what you are asking...
we must be precise and know exactly which part of the blade we are using and for what purpose. Are we slicing, thrusting,pushing the blade etc.....and to what part of teh opponants body...We line up the body the same way, with most of the movemnts based on rotations, I know what my barehand applications are ....I don't see how sword can 'show me how to use my empty hand'.....my teacher is very precise in her instruction of barehand so although I appreciate the similarities between certain movements I don't use sword to train my barehand form, but instead I use my understanding of barehand to train my sword form.
I hope that makes sense.....
I am going to base my answers based on Jian as that is the weapon I am most experienced in....and the Yang Shi form for the same reason. In the Jian form there are many similarities to the barehand form in movements....for example..seize the moon with three rings, first part is very close to brush and push from teh barehand form. In this both the sword and sword fingers carry the same movement as found in barehand. The principles and body requirments are identical there is no distortion of any of the joints, a bow step is still a bow step and so on. Moving to the second part of seize the moon, the sword crosses over the arm and strikes forward in a semi circle movement as the sword fingers also semi circle back towards the body.....again in barehand this movement is found in as high pat on horse prepares for the kicks etc. again the emphasis in each movement is the same, it hasn't become something different because a sword is involved......incidently in both of these moves we are using the handle or the sword, when we get on to using the sharp end
we must be precise and know exactly which part of the blade we are using and for what purpose. Are we slicing, thrusting,pushing the blade etc.....and to what part of teh opponants body...We line up the body the same way, with most of the movemnts based on rotations, I know what my barehand applications are ....I don't see how sword can 'show me how to use my empty hand'.....my teacher is very precise in her instruction of barehand so although I appreciate the similarities between certain movements I don't use sword to train my barehand form, but instead I use my understanding of barehand to train my sword form.why do we need to? barehand also creates its own force.
I have had only limited time with staff so I couldn't comment.
agreed, which are the same as in barehand.
I hope that makes sense.....
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theneuhauser
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- #16
thought provoking, chufeng.
a tool for self discovery.
a tool for self discovery.
East Winds
2nd Black Belt
Chufeng,
Interesting reasoning - but a bit flawed??
CONSIDER FOR A MOMENT, THE POSSIBILITY OF THE WEAPON SHOWING YOU HOW TO USE YOUR EMPTY HAND...
The above implies that you could start sword training before you had a complete understanding of barehand. In which case you might make a passable immitation of the movements of sword form, but you would certainly have no understanding of what you were doing! Until you can direct the intrinsic energy of taiji to the hands, you will have no ability to direct chin outwards through the sword blade.
"THE SWORD CREATES ITS OWN FORCE" - Sorry it dosn't!! The use of the word force is in itself an unfortunate choice as it implies hack and slash. It is the Yi which directs the body movement to transmit the chin to the blade "Sword is not for the warrior" as the quote goes. The sword has a very subtle and abstruse nature. Its use is as delicate as embroidering with the finest silk. Sabre is darning socks!!
The knife hand symetrically balances chi circulation so that chin can enter the sword. It is also used for cavity press during combat and not for striking per se.
If I have misunderstood your meaning I apologise. Incidentally which sword form do you practise?
Regards
Interesting reasoning - but a bit flawed??
CONSIDER FOR A MOMENT, THE POSSIBILITY OF THE WEAPON SHOWING YOU HOW TO USE YOUR EMPTY HAND...
The above implies that you could start sword training before you had a complete understanding of barehand. In which case you might make a passable immitation of the movements of sword form, but you would certainly have no understanding of what you were doing! Until you can direct the intrinsic energy of taiji to the hands, you will have no ability to direct chin outwards through the sword blade.
"THE SWORD CREATES ITS OWN FORCE" - Sorry it dosn't!! The use of the word force is in itself an unfortunate choice as it implies hack and slash. It is the Yi which directs the body movement to transmit the chin to the blade "Sword is not for the warrior" as the quote goes. The sword has a very subtle and abstruse nature. Its use is as delicate as embroidering with the finest silk. Sabre is darning socks!!
The knife hand symetrically balances chi circulation so that chin can enter the sword. It is also used for cavity press during combat and not for striking per se.
If I have misunderstood your meaning I apologise. Incidentally which sword form do you practise?
Regards
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chufeng
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- #18
No, I did not imply one could start the sword before empty hands.
You inferred that...
Weapons training should only be started after the student has a rudimentary idea of HOW to move in space...
After some empty hands training, the student may begin weapons training...AND, initially, the lessons of the sword will not be apparent to the novice...as someone said earlier, it teaches coordination (sort of an extension of the hand)...in time, however, it becomes the hand...and your empty hand techniques reflect the lesson of the sword...
I do not discount Yi...I do not discount body action...
Certainly, the weapon is more effective when those are employed...BUT, the weapon does create its own force...if you doubt that, stand in front of a novice and let him thrust at you with a straight sword...
I practice YiLi Tai Dao...YiLi Jien...YiLi Chiang...as well as the staff sets from the YiLiQuan system...are these T'ai Ji??? Yes and No...
Our system is derived from the three classical internal systems and from the Shaolin system known as PaiXingQuan...
Thank you for your comments
:asian:
chufeng
You inferred that...
Weapons training should only be started after the student has a rudimentary idea of HOW to move in space...
After some empty hands training, the student may begin weapons training...AND, initially, the lessons of the sword will not be apparent to the novice...as someone said earlier, it teaches coordination (sort of an extension of the hand)...in time, however, it becomes the hand...and your empty hand techniques reflect the lesson of the sword...
I do not discount Yi...I do not discount body action...
Certainly, the weapon is more effective when those are employed...BUT, the weapon does create its own force...if you doubt that, stand in front of a novice and let him thrust at you with a straight sword...
I practice YiLi Tai Dao...YiLi Jien...YiLi Chiang...as well as the staff sets from the YiLiQuan system...are these T'ai Ji??? Yes and No...
Our system is derived from the three classical internal systems and from the Shaolin system known as PaiXingQuan...
Thank you for your comments
:asian:
chufeng
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Taiji fan
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- Thread Starter
- #19
a rudimentary idea? Myabe this is where I am struggling with your concepts of 'and your empty hand techniques reflect the lesson of the sword...' This suggests only a basic understanding of how to move. I have not trained like this. I have spent the most time aiming to understanding the body requirments for my art....in barehand before getting to grips with the sword.
and what does that show? I guess if you drop a sword and it lands on your foot it will hurt, is that what you mean by creating its own force.....I am not trying to be awkward here I am just trying to understand you.
The weapons 'force' is commanded by the requirments for the body the 10 essences, principles call them what you will.
why yes and why no?
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chufeng
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- #20
I stated:
"...in time, however, it becomes the hand...and your empty hand techniques reflect the lesson of the sword..."
Notice the "in time" part...it won't happen over night...just as learning how to use T'aiJi for combat does not occur over night.
The point of the sword is the business end for the majority of the techniques...yes, you can use the 'round" blade and the pommel as weapons, too, but for the most part, the focus is on the tip.
Delivering the tip of the blade to the target requires control...it does not require a great deal of force, though...once it arrives at the target, it must have a solid base behind it to penetrate deeply (this is referring to a thrust)...if cutting vital spots with the tip of the blade, power is developed in a strong action in the wrist...this then is transferred to the tip...having a strong grip on the blade allows you to control it through the target...but again, the blade does the work...the blade amplifies the initial force.
Can you hold a blade still and cut with the action of the waist? Yes, but it is certainly a more difficult cut to master. In any of the above techniques, if the blade angle is off, you may be totally ineffective (and may damage your blade)...so you are controlling the action in more than one plane.
When defending against an incoming attack, force is not met with force...it is redirected...(easy enough to imagine but even easier if I were to show you what I mean)...
How does the blade amplify power? Centrifugal force for a cut and bringing the force to a single point (at least initially) for a thrust...
The blade is able to do this because it is, in essence, rigid...it maintains its integrity throughout the action of a cut or a thrust...
Can you see how any of this might apply to empty hands?
Certainly it is easy to see that a punch would be ineffective if the person executing the technique allowed his wrist and elbow to buckle on impact...now, I am not suggesting that your punch be rigid, per se, but rather that it is properly alligned so that the integrity of the technique remains unbroken from the heel through the target...
Likewise, when using a knife hand technique, you can employ the concept of maintaining a cutting edge from the shoulder through the tip of the pinky...use the waist as you use the wrist in cutting...and follow through the target, don't stop on a given point...cut through it. Doing this with strong Yi and focus really improves the power of your knife hand...
Just some thoughts...
:asian:
chufeng
"...in time, however, it becomes the hand...and your empty hand techniques reflect the lesson of the sword..."
Notice the "in time" part...it won't happen over night...just as learning how to use T'aiJi for combat does not occur over night.
The point of the sword is the business end for the majority of the techniques...yes, you can use the 'round" blade and the pommel as weapons, too, but for the most part, the focus is on the tip.
Delivering the tip of the blade to the target requires control...it does not require a great deal of force, though...once it arrives at the target, it must have a solid base behind it to penetrate deeply (this is referring to a thrust)...if cutting vital spots with the tip of the blade, power is developed in a strong action in the wrist...this then is transferred to the tip...having a strong grip on the blade allows you to control it through the target...but again, the blade does the work...the blade amplifies the initial force.
Can you hold a blade still and cut with the action of the waist? Yes, but it is certainly a more difficult cut to master. In any of the above techniques, if the blade angle is off, you may be totally ineffective (and may damage your blade)...so you are controlling the action in more than one plane.
When defending against an incoming attack, force is not met with force...it is redirected...(easy enough to imagine but even easier if I were to show you what I mean)...
How does the blade amplify power? Centrifugal force for a cut and bringing the force to a single point (at least initially) for a thrust...
The blade is able to do this because it is, in essence, rigid...it maintains its integrity throughout the action of a cut or a thrust...
Can you see how any of this might apply to empty hands?
Certainly it is easy to see that a punch would be ineffective if the person executing the technique allowed his wrist and elbow to buckle on impact...now, I am not suggesting that your punch be rigid, per se, but rather that it is properly alligned so that the integrity of the technique remains unbroken from the heel through the target...
Likewise, when using a knife hand technique, you can employ the concept of maintaining a cutting edge from the shoulder through the tip of the pinky...use the waist as you use the wrist in cutting...and follow through the target, don't stop on a given point...cut through it. Doing this with strong Yi and focus really improves the power of your knife hand...
Just some thoughts...
:asian:
chufeng
