Weapon Retention

[frank raud]

I was talking about long distance such as 15 feet apart. Most of the throwing weapons are different design than short distance wapon.

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&...w=136&start=0&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0,i:89

As the thread is about weapon retention, can you possibly explain how someone 15 feet away is capable of taking your weapon away from you?

 

[frank raud]

Do you have any recommendations for a folder trainer? I might be interested in picking one up.

Spyderco has waved Delicas and Enduras, Emerson has trainer as well, lots of folks modify their Benchmade Griptillian trainers(Ghetto wave).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As the thread is about weapon retention, can you possibly explain how someone 15 feet away is capable of taking your weapon away from you?

The throwing knife has nothing to do with weapon retention. How many time do I have to repeat this?

I started it as a "joke" to indicate that if you have many, if you lose one, you will still have some left. Please don't get too serious about this "side track".

If you have many wives, after one leaves you, you will still have some left. Please don't ask me whether the state of California allows to have multiple wives or not. I like to joke around. Life is too short to be too serious.

 

[shesulsa]

Indeed, let's drift back to retention.

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Aiki Lee]

Spyderco has waved Delicas and Enduras, Emerson has trainer as well, lots of folks modify their Benchmade Griptillian trainers(Ghetto wave).

I use the spyderco and think it is very much worth the higher price.

We train on weapon retention about the same amount with edged weapon and firearms. I think anyone who plans to carry such a thing needs to know how to hold onto it. Especially if you are in law enforcement.

 

[Blindside]

Do you have any recommendations for a folder trainer? I might be interested in picking one up.

I carry an Emerson, but Emerson doesn't make a trainer in my blade style so I bought one of these:
http://www.bladehq.com/item--Boker-Plus-Jim-Wagner--2980

And zip-tie waved it. It provides a good size comparison to my knife but the "remote opening feature" fails more often, that isn't a bad thing in a training knife IMO, I have to be able to open the knife without that feature as well. Oh, and it is about half the price of an equivelant trainer from SpyderCo or 1/3 the price of an Emerson trainer.

 

[frank raud]

I use the spyderco and think it is very much worth the higher price.

We train on weapon retention about the same amount with edged weapon and firearms. I think anyone who plans to carry such a thing needs to know how to hold onto it. Especially if you are in law enforcement.

I recently took a workshop from TDI utilising their knife(Kabar TDI law enforcement knife). Interesting to use a purpose built knife, designed for off hand use to protect your firearm. Also cool to get factory training on a knife.

 

[arnisador]

We do a lot of stick retention--what if he grabs your stick?--but not so much on knife. I have never used a lanyard or finger-hole--I don't want it used against me--but knives get dropped more often than people think.

 

[arnisador]

Speaking only for myself, I would not wish to throw a weapon to my opponent for him to use on me.

It's the Sayoc Kali approach. They carry 20+ knives/darts--I'm not exaggerating--in specially-designed rigs, and if an encounter seems imminent a standard plan is to charge forward, hurling knives/darts constantly to keep the foe dodging until you get close-in and can attack with a held knife. Then, whenever there's a danger of being disarmed you drop it (or fling it at the opponent, if possible) rather than fighting for retention, and access another one with your other hand immediately. It's meant to be an overwhelming attack that doesn't give the other guy a chance to use your dropped weapon against you. Their motto is: "I have the knife."

 

[PoolMan]

Interesting video on weapon retention by Sensei James Williams. There are other good ones as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6VjH0TfsQo&playnext=1&list=PL7EDAA2AC18270707&feature=results_video

On the subject of knife throwing, which I have practiced for many years, I would only do it in a self-defense situation as a LAST resort. Most people, even those who practice knife throwing, will have a very small probability of hitting a target in self-defense. This is simply because of two reasons. 1 - most knife throwing practioners practice with throwing knives, which are balanced for throwing. The knives they carry though are most likely folders which are not balanced at all. 2 - most practioners use a rotational throwing method, and stand a set distance from there target. This does not duplicate in any way a real life and death situation. If you are going to practice knife throwing and have any hope of defending yourself by throwing a knife learn the spear-style way of throwing. And even then, keep your knife in your hand where it belongs.

 

[oftheherd1]

Some weapon is hard for your opponent to take it away from you. If you put your middle finger into this ring, it will become part of your hand.

http://imageshack.us/a/img195/20/schook.jpg

That's a wicked looking knife!

 

[MJS]

There's a small portion that we have in our FMA classes, mainly defending the stick, however, I've worked it a bit more in depth, during private training, which also included the blade. Blindside made some great points, when talking about the ease of accessing your weapon. Definately important to keep body position in mind, as he said, so as to a) make it easier for you to get to your weapon and b) to make it harder for someone else to reach it.

As far as carrying multiple weapons and throwing one...IMO, I'd rather not toss away a weapon, on the assumption that I may get lucky and actually hit the guy. Furthermore, unless the knife is designed for it, throwing your average pocket knife probably isn't going to get the desired results anyways.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The most common technique to prevent your opponent from pulling out his knife or gun is to not allow his right hand to reach to his pocket. In order to do so, you can use the top of your right palm edge to strike inside of his right elbow joint. This will force his right arm to bend outward and make his right hand further away from his right pocket. You then use your left hand to push on the back of his right palm and move his right hand behind his back. This way his right hand will be even further away from his pocket.

If the knife or gun is already in your opponent's hand, the best chance is to "crack" his elbow joint if you can.

Here is an old clip to show some possible skill how to deal with arm robbery. It was from 8mm film so there is no sound.

 

[mook jong man]

In my country it is illegal to carry a knife , so I spend a lot of time training with the stick and improvised weapons.
A very useful exercise is to start off in close quarters , with one guy slowly going through his various stick strikes to the head and body , using either a double or single grip .

The other guys job is to do his best to try and stop the strikes and grab the stick with one or both hands.
I generally find that a technique called "kayaking" either forward or reverse seems to effect a quick release from most of the stick grabs , it's called "kayaking" because it mimics the action of someone paddling through the water in a kayak.
It works by putting a lot of pressure on the wrists of the person grabbing the stick ,so they either let go or get their wrists broken.

The exercise can be ramped up in intensity by instead of the person just grabbing the stick , they will now try and grab the stick and throw various punches at you with their free hand , so now you have to try and "kayak" out of the grab and block or redirect their punch with your stick.

 

[lklawson]

Speaking only for myself, I would not wish to throw a weapon to my opponent for him to use on me.

If my opponent has time to pick the weapon up off the ground (or out of his torso) and use it against me, then I did something wrong. Throwing a knife (or other thrown weapon) isn't like in the movies. It's not intended to immediately incapacitate or kill. It's a distraction, a "cover" so that I can either close range, keep him busy while delivering another attack, or escape.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I don't think I agree with your last statement, but could you explain your reasoning on this, please? Thanks!

Having a distance/force-projection weapon allows you to have stand off ability, to force range out and into a more safe distance, and to attack from a greater distance away. It also allows the option of creating distractions, covering actions, and forces the opponent to deal with one attack while another may be in the offing.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

As the subject of this thread is weapon retention, which by necessity means some very close contact grappling in the BGs attempt to gain access to your weapon, I doubt throwing knives would be of much value. A secondary weapon? Yes. Hard to throw a knife from a tangled up position.

From clinch range, no probably not. Why would you. From anything out farther away than body clashing range, then yeah.

Using thrown weapons in dueling, personal combat, and group/military combat is a very old and well documented practice. Yes, they can miss or be dodged. I came across one very old story documenting a duel between American Indians. The two were both equipped with a Tomahawk and a Knife. Both threw their 'hawks at each other. Both missed. The second one used the throw as a distraction to cover his advance into knife range.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

It's the Sayoc Kali approach. They carry 20+ knives/darts--I'm not exaggerating--in specially-designed rigs, and if an encounter seems imminent a standard plan is to charge forward, hurling knives/darts constantly to keep the foe dodging until you get close-in and can attack with a held knife. Then, whenever there's a danger of being disarmed you drop it (or fling it at the opponent, if possible) rather than fighting for retention, and access another one with your other hand immediately. It's meant to be an overwhelming attack that doesn't give the other guy a chance to use your dropped weapon against you. Their motto is: "I have the knife."

I've seen it in a lot of various martial systems. I've seen it in a Silat form that a friend did. I've seen throwing weapons in American Indian confrontations. Throwing weapons existed in Medieval Europe and in Greek and Roman military combat. I've seen Indian (asian) throwing ax/knives (look like some steel antler or something).

Yes, the rule was always, "have more than one."

I don't want to be rude to other posters (all of whom I respect) but I wonder at the comments of modern martial artists. We know for a fact that previous generations threw weapons. It's indisputable. We're not that much smarter than they were so if we can figure out that we shouldn't throw our only weapon, they must have. Because they threw weapons, they must have, for some reason, not been worried about the thrown weapon being used against them (or maybe they expected it... anyone ever read "Who's Afraid of Beowulf"?

I digress.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here is a nice knife throwling clip:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzI2NjA5NzI=.html

 

[lklawson]

Here is a nice knife throwling clip:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzI2NjA5NzI=.html

He's using the half-turn method. It's fine for what he's doing but I don't think it's optimal for "combat" throwing. I agree with "PoolMan" in that the "spear" style is more appropriate for this. Assuming, that is, that he and I are talking the same thing. I recall seeing it as any number of terms. I like the "Direct Hit" method for a name.

(http://www.secrets-of-shuriken.com.au/principles.htm)

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Fig. 33. Late release, and turning the palm, for close targets.

[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Fig. 34. Mid release for mid-range targets
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Fig. 35. Early release, and facing the palm, for distant targets
(from: http://www.secrets-of-shuriken.com.au/techniques2.htm[/FONT])

Of course there are the half turn, multiple turns, etc. But I think this is the best for what we're talking about.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk