we are not alone

[Manny]

Thinking and rethinking about TKD I conclude we are not alone in the sporty-self defense-martial arts too, judo and karate are some of the martial arts that have been sporticed too, judo being the first.

Judo evolved into a nice sport and olimpic sport (back in 1964 if I recall) and shotokan karate is one of the most sports oriented martial arts too, not olimpic but has many competitions around the globe in the international championshipos formats and even in Pan Am games.

I think we have some to learn about these two martial arts, I havent heard so much about judokas complaining about his/hers martial art, and the karatekas always defend his/her martial arts roots.

Manny

 

[StudentCarl]

Darn! I thought from your title that you found aliens studying taekwondo... and they also argue about traditional vs. sport.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

An interesting tidbit on Judo training; During WWII, Dermott 'Pat' O'Neill was the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in the world. He was also a member of the Shanghai Municipal Police Department with William Fairbairn. At the time, it was described as the most dangerous city/job in the world. O'Neill was eventually chosen to teach the First Special Services Forces (also known as the Devil's Brigade) which was a combination of U.S. and Canadian special forces (the movie of the same name was not an accurate portrayal). When designing what is now known as WWII Combatives, O'Neill (and Fairbairn who was a 2nd Dan under Jigoro Sensei) put no Judo into the system. When asked why, O'Neill replied that Judo was useless unless the enemy was wearing a Gi.

Now that was a bit of tounge-in-cheek humor on the part of O'Neill, but the point he was making was that Judo has a lot of sport techniques that require the opponent to be wearing heavy clothing for grip. If they aren't, or the quarters or conditions aren't what is needed then the number of Judo techniques that are possible become limited. Also, while many Judo techniques and principles are excellent for balance displacement, they aren't necessarily lethal which was often necessary on the battlefield or in special ops where stealth and quiet were essential.

Does this mean that Judo is useless for defense? No. Quite a bit in Judo can be effectively applied defensively against a resisting, determined attacker. The goal, for the defense minded Judoka, is to know the difference.

The same can be applied to TKD, or Karate, or any martial art that has both a sport and a self-defense component. For a competitor, who's goal is to win tourneys we need movements that fit within the rules of engagement. While kicks and punches are okay, it probably woundn't prolong your sport career to intentionally elbow strike the opponent, or use an intentional groin strike, or brachial plexus strike or head butt or eye gouge etc. For the defense-minded practitioner, limiting training to sport-geared sparring would limit ones total options as well. Again, the goal is simply to know the difference. One doesn't translate very well to the other. Each has there own specific training methodology and that is fine. The only time confusion or contention enters the picture is when one trains one way and believes it covers the other as well.

 

[troubleenuf]

Funny, In the early 80s I trained with a guy who had a Judo Black belt. When he was moving away he wanted to find out which was "better" TKD or Judo. I was game so we went to the gym. Before we started I took off my uniform top. He didnt think that was "fair" and wouldnt play after that.

An interesting tidbit on Judo training; During WWII, Dermott 'Pat' O'Neill was the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in the world. He was also a member of the Shanghai Municipal Police Department with William Fairbairn. At the time, it was described as the most dangerous city/job in the world. O'Neill was eventually chosen to teach the First Special Services Forces (also known as the Devil's Brigade) which was a combination of U.S. and Canadian special forces (the movie of the same name was not an accurate portrayal). When designing what is now known as WWII Combatives, O'Neill (and Fairbairn who was a 2nd Dan under Jigoro Sensei) put no Judo into the system. When asked why, O'Neill replied that Judo was useless unless the enemy was wearing a Gi.

Now that was a bit of tounge-in-cheek humor on the part of O'Neill, but the point he was making was that Judo has a lot of sport techniques that require the opponent to be wearing heavy clothing for grip. If they aren't, or the quarters or conditions aren't what is needed then the number of Judo techniques that are possible become limited. Also, while many Judo techniques and principles are excellent for balance displacement, they aren't necessarily lethal which was often necessary on the battlefield or in special ops where stealth and quiet were essential.

Does this mean that Judo is useless for defense? No. Quite a bit in Judo can be effectively applied defensively against a resisting, determined attacker. The goal, for the defense minded Judoka, is to know the difference.

The same can be applied to TKD, or Karate, or any martial art that has both a sport and a self-defense component. For a competitor, who's goal is to win tourneys we need movements that fit within the rules of engagement. While kicks and punches are okay, it probably woundn't prolong your sport career to intentionally elbow strike the opponent, or use an intentional groin strike, or brachial plexus strike or head butt or eye gouge etc. For the defense-minded practitioner, limiting training to sport-geared sparring would limit ones total options as well. Again, the goal is simply to know the difference. One doesn't translate very well to the other. Each has there own specific training methodology and that is fine. The only time confusion or contention enters the picture is when one trains one way and believes it covers the other as well.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Funny, In the early 80s I trained with a guy who had a Judo Black belt. When he was moving away he wanted to find out which was "better" TKD or Judo. I was game so we went to the gym. Before we started I took off my uniform top. He didnt think that was "fair" and wouldnt play after that.

And there's a very good take-home point in this. If this individual was only interested in the sport nature of Judo then he has a point, although a weak one. However, if he has any hopes of Judo benefiting him for personal self-defense, what is he going to do if he's in a situation where the bad guy has no shirt, or perhaps only a light T-shirt?

 

[Omar B]

I totally thought this topic was gonna be about something else.

 

[Thesemindz]

And there's a very good take-home point in this. If this individual was only interested in the sport nature of Judo then he has a point, although a weak one. However, if he has any hopes of Judo benefiting him for personal self-defense, what is he going to do if he's in a situation where the bad guy has no shirt, or perhaps only a light T-shirt?

Many throws, chokes, and submission techniques can be adapted to work from arm holds, headlocks, and clinch positions. You don't need a gi to grapple. But if you've only ever trained to grapple with a gi then you may be unprepared for no gi.

I prefer to train with the gi on, because it is durable and strong and can take a beating. It's easier to just wash my gi than to replace my t-shirts and rash guards class after class after class. But it's important to learn to fight without relying on your opponent being dressed a certain way, just like it's important to learn to fight without relying on your opponent reacting a certain way.

Throwing a guy head first into an asphalt parking lot can definitely be a lethal technique. And it can definitely be done whether or not he's wearing a gi. You just have to train it that way.


-Rob

 

[Kong Soo Do]

But it's important to learn to fight without relying on your opponent being dressed a certain way, just like it's important to learn to fight without relying on your opponent reacting a certain way.

Throwing a guy head first into an asphalt parking lot can definitely be a lethal technique. And it can definitely be done whether or not he's wearing a gi. You just have to train it that way.

-Rob

Bingo!

This can translate over to any martial art and can be a valuable lesson from a SD perspective. I've mentioned this before, but I think it bears repeating; it is one thing to kick after getting warmed up and stretched out in a loose fitting uniform, on a level and dry surface i.e. the Dojang floor. It can be quite another to be wearing tight jeans, shoes, a dress, winter clothing without being warmed up and stretched out on a non-level surface, or where it is wet and slippery.

This is why we would have 'street-clothes' nights often. And we would train outside in the parking lot, on grass, tight spaces, dim lights etc. It is nice to be at least somewhat familar with what it would be like outside of the controlled environment of the Dojang.

 

[Thesemindz]

Bingo!

This can translate over to any martial art and can be a valuable lesson from a SD perspective. I've mentioned this before, but I think it bears repeating; it is one thing to kick after getting warmed up and stretched out in a loose fitting uniform, on a level and dry surface i.e. the Dojang floor. It can be quite another to be wearing tight jeans, shoes, a dress, winter clothing without being warmed up and stretched out on a non-level surface, or where it is wet and slippery.

This is why we would have 'street-clothes' nights often. And we would train outside in the parking lot, on grass, tight spaces, dim lights etc. It is nice to be at least somewhat familar with what it would be like outside of the controlled environment of the Dojang.

I never needed my instructors to schedule a "street-clothes" class to force me to practice in my civvies. When did students quit training on their own time?


-Rob

 

[puunui]

I think we have some to learn about these two martial arts, I havent heard so much about judokas complaining about his/hers martial art, and the karatekas always defend his/her martial arts roots.

I recognize and appreciate your sentiments. It shows that you are growing, looking at things from a different perspective. I believe that your statement above pretty much sums up the theme of this thread, at least from my understanding. Funny that somehow the topic was quickly turned into something else.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I never needed my instructors to schedule a "street-clothes" class to force me to practice in my civvies. When did students quit training on their own time?


-Rob

That's one of those, "you can lead an elephant to water...but you can't push one in" things :lol:

But those that train on their own time separates them from those that don't. In the long run they'll probably be the ones that stay past 1st Dan.

 

[Cyriacus]

That's one of those, "you can lead an elephant to water...but you can't push one in" things :lol:

But those that train on their own time separates them from those that don't. In the long run they'll probably be the ones that stay past 1st Dan.

Nicely phrased

Personally, i practice for Two hours per day, Five Days Per Week (Aside from Training).

I find that as long as you know the Technique, self-practice can be boundlessly productive.

 

[Manny]

Nicely phrased

Personally, i practice for Two hours per day, Five Days Per Week (Aside from Training).

I find that as long as you know the Technique, self-practice can be boundlessly productive.

You are blessed to have plenty of time to practice outside dojang, runing a bussiness and tacking care of the family is not an easy task, I only practice inside dojang 3 times per week 1.5 hours per session, that's all I can do.

manny

 

[Kong Soo Do]

You are blessed to have plenty of time to practice outside dojang, runing a bussiness and tacking care of the family is not an easy task, I only practice inside dojang 3 times per week 1.5 hours per session, that's all I can do.

manny

Here's the thing Manny, if 3 times a week is your personal best....then it is your best! You can't give more than your best, so you're doing fine. You have the right mind set. See, there is a difference between only being able to train a certain amount of times per week due to family and job rather than someone who has extra time and isn't willing to put down the donuts and get off the couch.

So give yourself a pat on the back my friend, your doing fine

 

[Manny]

Here's the thing Manny, if 3 times a week is your personal best....then it is your best! You can't give more than your best, so you're doing fine. You have the right mind set. See, there is a difference between only being able to train a certain amount of times per week due to family and job rather than someone who has extra time and isn't willing to put down the donuts and get off the couch.

So give yourself a pat on the back my friend, your doing fine

Jajajajajaja!!!!! Yes you are right. Offcourse I will like to have extra time to do crosstrain again but I will need to sacrifice the time I give to my girls so I try to take it easy, go to dojang teach the guys and do some exercise that's all.

Manny

 

[Thesemindz]

Generally, I recommend that beginners spend at least an hour a week training outside the school, intermediates two hours, and advanced students four. Of course, not everyone can, and not everybody does, but those that do will see the difference. I try to spend about 3 hours a week working on my classes, 5 hours a week training outside the school, and another 5 training and teaching inside the school. That doesn't include time I spend reading karate books, on martialtalk, or watching karate videos on YouTube which is another four or five hours a week on average.

It's hard. I sacrifice a lot of other things I'd like to do so I can focus on karate. I try to work out in the evenings while my wife and I watch tv, and I don't have any kids yet I'm sure that'll change things. But karate is the most important thing to me after family. So I make the time.

You can't always devote all your energy to your training. Sometimes family, work, home, community, and life in general need attention too. But if it's really important to you, you'll be back. Karate's not going anywhere.


-Rob

 

[frank raud]

Funny, In the early 80s I trained with a guy who had a Judo Black belt. When he was moving away he wanted to find out which was "better" TKD or Judo. I was game so we went to the gym. Before we started I took off my uniform top. He didnt think that was "fair" and wouldnt play after that.

A judo black belt who can't figure out how to do de ashi barai on a shirtless man? Hmm.

 

[frank raud]

An interesting tidbit on Judo training; During WWII, Dermott 'Pat' O'Neill was the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in the world. He was also a member of the Shanghai Municipal Police Department with William Fairbairn. At the time, it was described as the most dangerous city/job in the world. O'Neill was eventually chosen to teach the First Special Services Forces (also known as the Devil's Brigade) which was a combination of U.S. and Canadian special forces (the movie of the same name was not an accurate portrayal). When designing what is now known as WWII Combatives, O'Neill (and Fairbairn who was a 2nd Dan under Jigoro Sensei) put no Judo into the system. When asked why, O'Neill replied that Judo was useless unless the enemy was wearing a Gi.

Do you have a reference for that O'Neill statement?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I see the fact that tkd has 'traditional' and 'sport' to be a advantage because the practitioner can choose which direction they want to go in and choose a club accordingly. Basically it just gives us more options. I have no interest in tournaments, competing, points, politics etc so myself and my family train at a traditional self defence based tkd club, but its nice to know that if my kids take a real shine to tkd and would like to compete and I can always take them up the road to one of the WTF clubs and the 'sport' option is available to them. I think its only a positive that tkd comes in many 'flavours'.

 

[kegage]

This does not involve TKD, Judo, or other empty handed arts, but, I believe it has a place in this thread. If it does not feel free to slam me.

I can relate to this thread very well. Some background, I am in an organization called the Society for Creative Anachronisms (SCA). It is an educational historical re-creation organization primarily based in the European middle ages (pre 1600), but does not restrict its members to just those physical areas. The areas of study are vast, including almost every aspect of historical everyday life including the armored and weapon combat martial aspects. The SCA studies, researches, and re-creates history on an individual level. The individual chooses what they want to study and re-create. The SCA also allows its members to be as serious in their research, and re-creation, as they desire, or are able to do. As a result we have people that who are extremely serious in their research and re-creation all the way down to those who merely want to kind of look the part and play. The result of this attitude is that we have an organization of over 30,000 members and over 100,000 participants (You don’t have to be a member to participate. Just follow the basic rules). To my knowledge, it is the largest group of its kind in the world. We have archeologist, and other academics coming to our group all the time asking if we know what an item is, or how something was constructed or done. We are also continuously criticized by some academics, and other historical organizations, mainly for not requiring our people to be absolutely period in their re-creations.
To the meat of it all, I mentioned above the armored and weapon combat martial aspects. We have three divisions of combat martial arts. They are Heavy Weapons (Armored Combat), Light Weapons (Rapier combat), and Cut and Thrust (Metal weapons combat similar to what some Western Martial Arts groups do). Our martial arts assume three basic premises. 1) For the purposes equality in competition, all fighters are considered to be wearing the same armor ( For heavy weapons: Chainmail over a leather hauberk and an open faced basinet helm), regardless of the armor actually being worn. 2) All weapons are considered real, and must be capable of causing incapacitation, or death, through the armor standard for that activity. 3) Victory, or defeat, is determined by an honor system. The person receiving the incapacitating, or “death “, blow is honor bound to acknowledge it and concede the bout (die). (Yes, we have studied and experimented with the forces necessary to accomplish this with a variety of different real weapons, and train our fighters to approximate that standard.) The weapons for heavy weapons combat are simulated and made of rattan. We use rattan for a variety of reasons, safety being the key reason. All combat is free form and heavy weapons combat is full force blows. We are trying to re-create the actualities of combat, both tournament and war, in as safe a manner as possible. While most people do European, more and more people are expanding into the Middle Eastern and Asian areas. I have been doing Japanese for 30+ years.
Those that criticize us mainly do so in three areas: 1) We don’t use real steel therefore what we do is invalidated due to the differences between how a steel weapon would function, and how rattan functions. 2) We don’t use the late period fencing manuals in the training of our fighters. 3) What we do isn’t a martial art. It is just sport fighting dressed up in a medieval cover with no actual documented basis.
The first is untrue in two of the divisions, and the period manuals are specifically mentioned in the rules for those activities. As to heavy weapons combat, the first is true to a degree. Rattan does not function the same as steel. However, I have used both, and personally, I find the differences negligible, especially in the heat of full force, free form, combat.
The second is also true, and untrue. The period manuals referred to are used quite frequently if they apply to the form that is being learned, but they are not required. In most earlier medieval forms they do not apply, so their use is not warranted. I don’t care what the so-called experts in other orgainizations say, Buckler and rapier does not apply to heater shield and broadsword.
On the third, find us the documentation. For over forty years we have been, and continue to search for it. To our knowledge there are no existent manuals, or how-to documents, for most of the forms we do. There are some limited oral traditions, that are extremely vague, for some forms, and you can only extrapolate so much from the art work and descriptions in the historical records of the period. So, interpretation and experimentation become the necessary formats for learning.
Not a martial art? Tell that to the people that spend hour after hour on the practice field, and privately, studying their movement, form, and technique. How the weapons work with the movements of their bodies both in offense and defense, and how best to accomplish efficient movement and deliver a substantial blow to their opponent. Attend and put on seminars locally, and across the country to exchange knowledge and improve their fighting techniques. (We just flew in a gentleman from Wisconsin for just such a seminar.) I know people who spend more time studying and practicing this than some of the most dedicated “other” martial artists I know.

So, been there, had that discussion, and feel your angst.

Kevin