WC Always Being Picked On...WHY?!?!

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by ilhe4e12345, Aug 11, 2011.

  1. ilhe4e12345

    ilhe4e12345 Green Belt

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    Last night i went out for a few drinks with some of my friends. Most of them are into some form of martial art/boxing/MMA so it always comes up when we go out. The topic of Wing Chun came up when my friend Jimmy talked about how much he loved the IP Man movies.

    I mentioned that i have learned the basic strikes and blocks from my teacher and started the first form and how much im liking it with my 7 Star Mantis Training. Well that apparently was the hot button.....i was then piked on by 2 of the guys i work with because they have MMA training and talk about how useless WC is and that it cant hold a candle to MMA. Movies like IP Man give you an unrealistic impression of the art and blah blah blah....

    I understand that seeing an art or style of kung fu in any movie is not like real life. I did admit that seeing IP Man sparked my interest in the style of WC but i dont think for one second in my head that if im walking down the street and im attacked that its going to be like that. The style is one of the most popular in the world and it is very affective and deadly if used and taught the right way just as any style is. The MMA guys began freaking out about how it has no anti grappling and that you stand straight up and dont move side to side and its all straight line and kept jsut saying the stupidest things i have ever heard.....

    I hate MMA becuase the thinking that most people have is "MMA is the best because i watch it on pay preview and thats how real life is". These guys began talking about how if you take a fully trained MMA fighter and go up against a master of WC that 9 times out of 10 they will beat the WC guy. They dont know anything about the style so i pointed out that there are so many different things you DONT see in martial arts because you see it on tv. A simple movement can end up in someone losing an eye or killing someone without even knowing how it happened.

    I may not understand WC as i ahve only trained a little in it but this happens all the time when MMA guys run their mouths. MMA is very affective and useful no questions there but to say that its so much better then WC just because its popular is just ignorant.

    Anybody else ever experience this arugment or can explain why MMA has this chip on their shoulder? I have watched martial arts full contact tournaments and its more brutal then any MMA garbage i have seen.
     
  2. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    The real MMA guys I have talked to seem to be more interested in how it works than tearing it down and saying it is worthless, they tend to want to look at anything that helps them win. I have meant MMA guys that trained Wing Chun, Kenpo and even Qigong.

    However a lot of the armchair MMA people tend to be more vocal… but that is really no different than any other armchair martial artist.

    Bottom-line is, who cares what anyone thinks, if you are happy with it what they think and or say matters little
     
  3. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Many MA are picked on in the same way. Ask an MMA guy about Karate - Then ask him which form of Karate hes referring to (No matter what his answer is).
    The same happens with Ju Jutsu, which is stereotyped as being BJJ, when it isnt. At all.
    Hapkido, as being pure Grappling. When Grappling is just the Focus.
    Aikido, for every reason you can dream up, with complete ignorance to any factors sorrounding it.
    Taekwon-Do, stereotyped as a Pretend Kicking Art.
    Hell, even MMA can be stereotyped as BJJ with Striking, if your feeling ignorant and ignoring any exceptions :)
    Wing Chun is stereotyped as a powerless Artsy Art.
    Many (Dare i say, Most) people dont know Kickboxing has Knee Strikes.
    Eskrima has Wrestling Aspects in it.
    Pugilism had Grappling, Throws, Grabs, and Knees in it.
    Boxing, especially when Infighting, is far more efficient than it looks.

    In other words, people can be quite Ignorant.

    One thing though - Dont return the favor. Dont call MMA Garbage, or your as bad as they are. I can understand why youd say that, but look past what THEYRE learning. MMA is literally, Mixed Martial Arts. Learning more than one Martial Art, or having Two Different MA Fight. MMA Gyms are run by individuals who teach blends of styles in a way they see fit. Its inevitable that some would be naiive, and blindly bash anything that isnt their style. Its like Kyokushin VS Shotokan, or ITF VS KKW, or Kickboxing VS Karate.

    It all works just fine. But some people can be awefully defensive.
    Just dont fall in to the same trap yourself.
    For example, its Pay Per View, or PPV.

    In their statement about MMA guys beating WC guys, that may be true. But its rare to see the match ever even made in the first place, and WC isnt exactly made with Ring Fighting in mind.


    Ill never get one thing though - MMA in Cages especially, can be unusually slow. I dont know why. Especially in the UFC.

    Hope this Helps set your Mind at Ease :)
     
  4. ETinCYQX

    ETinCYQX Master Black Belt

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    Invite them to spar if you feel that strongly about it. You'll reach a conclusion soon enough. Some people are just tools and it happens everywhere including Kung Fu, it's nothing to let bother you :)

    And now I'll present a counter-argument for MMA. The fact of the matter is contact, contact, contact. MMA is fantastic because they train full contact with a resisting opponent. Deadly techniques that "can't be drilled" will lose every time to someone who trains with a live opponent who is actively resisting. What makes me a better striker? Trying to strike someone who is actively trying to strike me first. What makes me a better grappler? Grappling. MMA has this figured out.
     
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  5. HammockRider

    HammockRider Orange Belt

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    MMA lives and breathes contact and resistence, so any system that doesn't feature that is going to be criticized by them. It's their meat and drink. And I agree with ETinCYQX, they have a good point. Whether or not a guy is a jerk about voicing his opinion I think has more to do with the individual than the art.

    I've heard it said before that MMA has actually done other martial art forms a favor with their insistence on active resistence and pressure testing. Students are starting to really question whether or not their training will help them in a real life situation and if they find their training lacking, they want to change that. I think that's a good thing. There's no reason why a martial art can't be both an "Art" and a functional system of self-defense, if you train that way.
     
  6. ilhe4e12345

    ilhe4e12345 Green Belt

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    i didnt mean to say it was all the MMA guys. i know not everybody is going to run their mouths and brag about it and put down other styles. As a matter of fact when i worked as a bouncer my good friend had taken TKD for many many years and when he found out i was taking 7 Star Praying Mantis, at first he made fun of it saying it was "pokey and stupid art with no control"

    so of course i asked if he knew anything about it, he said no and then i explained. After talking about it for about 2 weeks he said "hey how about we have a little sparring match next time we work together, nothing to crazy but have a little fun?" so i was ok with this and one night we were escorting a few of the ladies to their cars (i worked at a strip club) and he said "here i come!" and swung at me. I was able to grab him and control his punch and avoid his kicks and landed more hits including 2 hits to the eyes (i didnt connect). Since then he and i have become very very good friends sand we spar weekly :)

    my point being is that he trashed talked it but then once he learned about it and understood it he doesnt question it being a great style/system. I dont really think all MMA is garbage but i do hate the arm chair MMA pros that think they know what they are talking about when they dont want to learn about the other arts they insult or dont even train themselves the way they talk about.

    I dont care what anybody has to say about the art. I love Mantis and i love WC (the little that i practice) and i wont go based on someone elses words on it especially if they dont know anything about it. I just wanted to see if anybody else had anything to say about it here, it seems there is A LOT of WC vs MMA arguments online.

    glad to hear some good responses :)
     
  7. Eric_H

    Eric_H Black Belt

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    WC is a good style, just has outdated training methods and often is not taught in a holistic fashion. Too often people focus on the "curriculum" of Wing Chun vs the actual skill and needs of the student.

    MMA, oddly, focuses better on what the very basics of kung fu are (balancing the chi and the li) by implementing cardiovascular conditioning and resistance training.

    Old wisdom shows that unless your skill eclipses mine by a very wide margin, if I'm in better shape and have a sense of how to fight you're in some serious trouble.
     
  8. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    There are lots of people out there who are very vocal and feel the need to disparage other styles as a way of building up what they do. I suspect there may be more than just a little bit of compensation in the mix...

    The vocal people need to prove to the world, and get the acceptance of the world, to validate what they are doing.

    If you allow others to believe that what you do is useless, it works to your advantage if the fit hits the shan.

    why try and convince them otherwise?

    Let others believe what they want to believe. Feel free to agree with them, to their face.
     
  9. clfsean

    clfsean Senior Master

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    Simple... according to the stories & subsequent movies... a GIRL created it. Of course it's gonna get ragged... bwhahaahahahaha

    Seriously... WC has lots to offer, but there's always those that have to put down things/people to feel better about them. I normally credit that to a tiny unit, 'roid rages or the like...
     
  10. mograph

    mograph Master Black Belt

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    Smile, appear interested, and ask them more about their art. There must be something you can learn. Let them talk ... That's what they want to do. By listening with respect, you would be gracious. Sifu would be proud of you.

    We have nothing to prove, and everything to learn. From anybody. :)
     
  11. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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  12. WC_lun

    WC_lun Senior Master

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    I train in WC and have trained with guys fromm MMA, JJ, judo, etc. The Wing Chun stands up very well. However, the training methods and concpets taught by my instructor are responsible for this as much as anything, because we constantly test our skills and knowledge with physical contact. We also respect anyone that we train with that do things differently as a way to learn a different approach to the same goal. Occasionally you will hear something describes as "crap" and some words like that. It isn't the particular system that is being described though, but how a particular person was trained. I actually hear this most about other Wing Chun schools that are substandard because that is our primary focus.

    If you want to end that kind of nonsense from your MMA buds, trade hands with them. You'll get thier respect even if you don't come out on top. Also, if you have a great deal of problems with them, you will know there is a problem somewhere in your training and you can address it. If your Wing chun is good, they'll eat crow.
     
  13. mook jong man

    mook jong man Senior Master

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    Could be that we don't conform to what a normal martial should look like , there is no posturing , no bulging biceps covered in tattoos , no large and obvious attacking motions , no grunting with effort and emitting of loud kiai"s.

    We also stand a bit funny , we have these small little punches that only travel a few inches and don't seem to have any obvious method of power generation , all our movements are subtle and minimalistic in nature , we can redirect huge amounts of force with no discernible effect on our balance or stance .

    On top of all that we practice this funny , girly looking arm clinging exercise called Chi sau.
    All this can be very strange to people .
    People like to categorise things and put them into neat little boxes so it reinforces their world view of things , when something challenges their world view of things it unsettles them and they usually react with criticism because they don't understand it.

    Wing Chun is a very , deep , deep skill , forget about the detractors and concentrate on your own development.
    Long after these meathead's muscular external based force and athleticism has faded away with age , as long as you continue to practice Wing Chun your skill and effortless generation of power will continue to increase until you shuffle of this mortal coil.
     
  14. hunt1

    hunt1 Green Belt

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    To answer your question all you have to do is look at the videos in the interesting flow topic. Show these videos in any MMA or boxing gym and see how many folks to laugh till they cry.

    Yip Man told his students" I may be lying to you go out and find out for yourself." and they did. They fought against the best martial arts available to them in Hong Kong in the 1950's.

    Today how many teachers tell student they should go out and test their skills against other styles or fighters. Many don't even want their studentes testing themselves against other versions of wing chun. If you are not testing against MMA fighters, the best available today then you will never learn how to use wing chun.
     
  15. Haris Lamboo Faisal

    Haris Lamboo Faisal Blue Belt

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    MMA guys train to deliver maximum power with each strike .... wing chun guys train to be reactionary and precise ... imo if you train to deliver deadly strikes but the opponent is competent enough to step 5 inches to the side in or back then a missed strike with recoil is just another chance for the WC guy to punish the mma guy if that makes sense .... anywho ... my two cents.
     
  16. zepedawingchun

    zepedawingchun Black Belt

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    Wing Chun is always being picked on because when you're the fastest gun in the west, there's always another gun-slinger around the corner wanting to take your title.
     
  17. HK Phooey

    HK Phooey White Belt

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    It seems that when a person strongly believes in something and has invested months or years in it, they want to believe it's the best, sometimes to the point of dismissing everyone else's opinions. It happens all the time with other stuff as well -

    "the car that you bought is garbage, you should have bought an XYZ instead"
    "your company's products are inferior to my company's"
    "my religion is right, yours is wrong" etc. etc.

    I'd imagine that in a Western country, Wing Chun is easier to pick on as it has a lot of enthusiastic supporters and doesn't "look" the way people expect a a fighting style to look (mostly from movies and MMA).

    Over here in Hong Kong, Wing Chun has a tremendous amount of respect and pretty much everyone on the street knows of it, thanks to a certain Mr Lee and Mr Ip (and recently Mr Yen as well).
     
  18. Jake104

    Jake104 Black Belt

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    Well first off, the title of this thread sounds a bit whiny and weak to me. I might of reworded it to say " WC gets no respect... Why???". The next thing is, respect is earned. Not by arguing and debating as to why there is a lack there of. But by testing. Testing by fighting , sparring and realistic training methods.

    A previous poster quoted YM. Well times have changed. We now live in a passified society were we are contantly being told not to stand up for ourselves for fear of being hurt or hurting someones feelings. My sons school banned tag and dodge ball for being to ruff for goodness sake. Again if you want respect then you will need to earn it.

    As friends go; I would never tell them sh$t. Why would I ? You know how many " friends" I ended up fighting. Why would I want to show my poker hand. They just knew I did some "weird shi&t" and I was good at it and they best not mess with me. Or you could say, there was a RESPECT for what I knew and what I could do to them if they tested me.Jake
     
  19. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    It also depends on the person surely. When ever anyone wants to up their style by disrespecting another style they always pick MMA to compare theirs to. If I said all WC were loud, disrespectful, boastful etc you'd all, rightly, be down on me like a ton of bricks but it's always deemed okay to generalise about MMA people as all being ignorant etc etc etc. You don't know all MMA people, you've met a few who profess to be MMA experts and don't like them, don't, however tar us all with the same brush. Here in the UK at least because of Sami we have a healthy respect for WC and other arts for that matter.
     
  20. Jake104

    Jake104 Black Belt

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    Tez3, I agree 100% . Problem is the Internet and forums are a Mecca for sh$t talking cowards who I guarantee would not have the balls to say it face to face. So either you call them out or egnore it. I prefer the first. There is of coarse an upside. I have met with and continue to train and learn from some nice people on here.

    Jake123
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011

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