Vice President Dick Cheney Shoots Hunting Colleague

[lonecoyote]

One reason the guy was doing so well is that he got promtp care, there are always doctors and an ambulance close by Cheney, in case his ticker needs a jump start. That's not a joke either.

 

[michaeledward]

I believe any hunter that accidently shoots another hunter in the field should have the privilege revoked.

New reports are informing us it was bird shot at 30 yards, both hunters were wearing hunter orange.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I believe any hunter that accidently shoots another hunter in the field should have the privilege revoked.

New reports are informing us it was bird shot at 30 yards, both hunters were wearing hunter orange.

By your own admission, you have never been hunting. It is always possible for the non-hunter to do something darn stupid that gets themselves shot.

 

[dubljay]

1) I believe any hunter that accidently shoots another hunter in the field should have the privilege revoked.

2)New reports are informing us it was bird shot at 30 yards, both hunters were wearing hunter orange.

1) If two people run a red light and hit eachother who is at fault? Clearly it was an accident.. if Cheney had wanted the man dead he has the CIA for that . If a member of your party strays off without giving proper notice how do you know where that person is? By the same token you don't start shooting when a member of your party is not accounted for.

2) 30 yards of underbrush.. it makes no difference what color the man was wearing theres no way he could be seen. Same if he stooped down in wasit high grass. Perhaps the orange color was covered temporarly while he was placing the game in a bag? Also when tracking a fast moving target are you really going to see the orange color? I highly doubt it.


There is far too little information to make a judgement on this.

 

[michaeledward]

By your own admission, you have never been hunting. It is always possible for the non-hunter to do something darn stupid that gets themselves shot.

I am not a hunter because I am strongly opposed to guns.

Many years ago, I was in upstate Vermont when fishing in my canoe during bird season. Hearing the report from my boat was enough for me to be very aware of the dangers in the wilderness during hunting season. You will note my avatar is a fish, just prior to my releasing it. I am a very passionate outdoors person.

So, while non-hunters, such as hikers and fisherman need to take care in the outdoors during hunting season, the person with the firearm in their hands has 'ultimate responsibility'. The phrase 'ultimate responsibility' is one that I intensly dislike, because in almost all cases, responsibility is shared by all parties involved.

I do not excuse the accident of the man who was shot, but it was not his actions that got him shot. It was Richard Cheney who pulled the trigger.

Here is the link to Texas Hunter Safety Rules. Rules 3 and 6 are relevant, I believe.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=496607

 

[Martial Tucker]

If it is not ridiculous on its face, I repeat an earlier question; "How many people do you get to shoot before you lose the privilege of hunting?"

Similarly, how many people do you have to murder, or children do you have to molest before they quit paroling you? How many times do you have to be arrested for DUI before they lock you up? There are WAY more stories of this nature in the news DAILY. I don't see you railing against those offenders.
Clinton hit a guy with a golf ball once. I guess he should be BANISHED from all golf courses for the rest of his life.

It was an accident, and I'm willing to bet serious money if it had been Kerry or Lieberman pulling the trigger, you'd have thought nothing about it.
If you can't be objective, your wailing and teeth-gnashing is seriously devalued.

And for the record, Personally, I can't stand Cheney. That might be the only thing you and I agree on. But your message is juvenile

 

[sgtmac_46]

Breaking news that the Vice President unloaded a shotgun full of bird shot into a fellow hunter.

Maybe this should be posted in the Study .....

The other hunter is reportedly conscious and aware.

The Vice President should be denied a hunting license for the rest of his life.

Funny how politics drives peoples reasoning. Cheney is hunting birds, and accidently peppers his hunting companions with bird-shot, and you want to deny him a hunting license for the rest of his life.

On the other side, however, we have this illustrious crew.

Ted Kennedy murderers a woman by driving her off a bridge, drunk, then abandoning her to walk home and call his attorney, we keep sending him back to Washington.

Mayor Marion Barry purchases crack cocaine from under cover agents, gets sent to prison. He gets out of prison and gets reelected.

It's kind of clear some people really don't care about the issue, they just care about your politics. You can murder a woman, and if you're politics are right, you're a 'good man'. You can sell and buy crack cocaine, and if you're politics are good, you're 'ok'.

If you're politics are wrong, though, and you accidentally put a few small pieces of bird shot in to a buddy while hunting, and you're a villain for life, and people want to hang you.

So, does Ted Kennedy have a driver's license?

Now, if Cheney had pulled a Ted Kennedy, and buried the guy in the bushes and called his attorney to figure out what to do next, instead of getting him medical attention, I could understand some criticism.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I am not a hunter because I am strongly opposed to guns.

Many years ago, I was in upstate Vermont when fishing in my canoe during bird season. Hearing the report from my boat was enough for me to be very aware of the dangers in the wilderness during hunting season. You will note my avatar is a fish, just prior to my releasing it. I am a very passionate outdoors person.

So, while non-hunters, such as hikers and fisherman need to take care in the outdoors during hunting season, the person with the firearm in their hands has 'ultimate responsibility'. The phrase 'ultimate responsibility' is one that I intensly dislike, because in almost all cases, responsibility is shared by all parties involved.

I do not excuse the accident of the man who was shot, but it was not his actions that got him shot. It was Richard Cheney who pulled the trigger.

Here is the link to Texas Hunter Safety Rules. Rules 3 and 6 are relevant, I believe.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=496607

Just like driving a car. So keep this in mind. If a pedestrian jumps out in front of you, and you bump them with your car, causing minor injury, do we have your word that you're going to turn in your driver's license for life? Or is this all just the hypocritical tirade many of us suspect?

Because, Cheney has been hunting for probably 50 years, and never had an incident like this. Then, one day he wasn't paying the attention he should have, and made an error in judgement. Do you expect to drive for 50 years without ever making an error in judgement? If you do, should we ban you for life?

 

[michaeledward]

You guys want to talk about hunting? And hunting accidents?

I have said nothing politically about this incident. Although there are many jokes just begging to be made, I have not issued any.

There are approximately 400 such incidents every year in North America. Mr Cheney has joined a very elite group. This is an unfortunate opportunity to discuss the topic, because of the high profile of the nature of the shooter.

 

[sgtmac_46]

You guys want to talk about hunting? And hunting accidents?

I have said nothing politically about this incident. Although there are many jokes just begging to be made, I have not issued any.

There are approximately 400 such incidents every year in North America. Mr Cheney has joined a very elite group. This is an unfortunate opportunity to discuss the topic, because of the high profile of the nature of the shooter.

That's because this isn't a political issue....except to you, obviously. If it had been John Kerry, and he winged a reporter, I wouldn't hear a word from you. Your asinine assertion that he should be 'banned for life' is nothing but political sour grapes. Your tone and intent was never to open a dialogue on gun safety, it was an obvious effort to take a cheap shot at someone who made a moments bad judgement in a 50 plus year dedication to a sport. In fact, when I read about the account on the internet, I knew as soon as I read it, you'd be here making political hay out of it. You didn't disappoint me.

So lets talk about gun safety. Did Cheney screw up? Oh yes, he certainly did. Did he intentionally do it? Obviously not. Is this a pattern of behavior? Again, obviously not. Should we excuse Cheney for his moments error in judgement? I don't think there's a need to. I seriously doubt he'll excuse himself. In fact, i'm sure the man feels utterly and completely guilty (despite your pretensions that he's some kind of cold hearted vampire).

The man made a moments mistake, that anybody here, including YOU could make. In fact, many people in here will make similar mistakes over the course of their lives, whether it be with a gun, a car, a piece of equipment, or any number of things. You could hurt someone, possibly a friend, out of nothing more than a moments slow reaction to a changing condition, or simply not seeing something.

How do you want to be judged when that time comes, michael? By what standard do you want a moments inattention judged by? By what standard do you, yourself, want to be judged?

 

[Grenadier]

To Micheal:

Bottom line:

An accident occurred. Cheney isn't at fault, since it wasn't his fault that the unfortunate fellow popped out of the tall grass unannounced.

This is no different than if a karate-ka were practicing kata, say one that has a no-look strike to it, and then someone different stumbled onto the dojo floor without any warning at all, and ended up getting hit as a result of it.

Is the karate-ka at fault? No. The other person should have had the sense to not wander onto the floor without at least warning him that he was coming onto there.


To SgtMac:

Sorry about the mixup earlier. Check PM.

 

[michaeledward]

That's because this isn't a political issue....except to you, obviously. If it had been John Kerry, and he winged a reporter, I wouldn't hear a word from you. Your asinine assertion that he should be 'banned for life' is nothing but political sour grapes. Your tone and intent was never to open a dialogue on gun safety, it was an obvious effort to take a cheap shot at someone who made a moments bad judgement in a 50 plus year dedication to a sport. In fact, when I read about the account on the internet, I knew as soon as I read it, you'd be here making political hay out of it. You didn't disappoint me.

******** !!

I really wish you would stop ascribing motive to my posts.

So lets talk about gun safety. Did Cheney screw up? Oh yes, he certainly did. Did he intentionally do it? Obviously not. Is this a pattern of behavior? Again, obviously not. Should we excuse Cheney for his moments error in judgement? I don't think there's a need to. I seriously doubt he'll excuse himself. In fact, i'm sure the man feels utterly and completely guilty (despite your pretensions that he's some kind of cold hearted vampire).

The man made a moments mistake, that anybody here, including YOU could make. In fact, many people in here will make similar mistakes over the course of their lives, whether it be with a gun, a car, a piece of equipment, or any number of things. You could hurt someone, possibly a friend, out of nothing more than a moments slow reaction to a changing condition, or simply not seeing something.

How do you want to be judged when that time comes, michael? By what standard do you want a moments inattention judged by?

Well, you do an awful lot of judging of me, don't you.

Any hunter that shoots anything other than the game at which they are aiming, and in the appropriate season should have the privilege revoked.

 

[michaeledward]

To Micheal:

Bottom line:

An accident occurred. Cheney isn't at fault, since it wasn't his fault that the unfortunate fellow popped out of the tall grass unannounced.

Grenadier ...

To assert Cheney isn't at fault is just downright stupid.

I will point you to the Texas Hunter Education web page .

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/learning/hunter_education/shotsafe.phtml

Be sure of your target and what is in front of and beyond your target.
Before you pull the trigger you must properly identify game animals. Until your target is fully visible and in good light, do not even raise your scope to see it. Use binoculars! Know what is in front of and behind your target. Determine that you have a safe backstop or background. Since you do not know what is on the other side, never take a shot at any animals on top of ridges or hillsides. Know how far bullets, arrows and pellets can travel. Never shoot at flat, hard surfaces, such as water, rocks or steel because of ricochets.

Know your safe zone-of-fire and stick to it.
Your safe zone-of-fire is that area or direction in which you can safely fire a shot. It is "down range" at a shooting facility. In the field it is that mental image you draw in your mind with every step you take. Be sure you know where your companions are at all times. Never swing your gun or bow out of your safe zone-of-fire. Know the safe carries when there are persons to your sides, in front of, or behind you. If in doubt, never take a shot. When hunting, wear daylight fluorescent orange so you can be seen from a distance or in heavy cover.

​

Based on these rules of Hunter Safety, Cheney is at fault. "Big Time".

 

[sgtmac_46]

Well, you do an awful lot of judging of me, don't you.

No, I asked you how you wanted yourself judged in a similiar circumstance. That you can't deal with that question honestly is rather telling.

Because someday, heck maybe already, you're going to be backing out of your driveway, or driving down the road, or pulling in to a parking lot, and some pedestrian or other motorist is going to be there, and for a moment, just a moment, you aren't going to see them. Then, that moment's inattention is going to lead to a collision. Hopefully nobody gets hurt or hurt badly, but they could. By what standard do you want to be judged by? I don't think it'll be the standard you are applying to Mr. Cheney.

Could you give an honest answer, please, so we can be done with this foolishness? I don't expect an answer, because I know what standard you'll apply to yourself, and you know the obvious consequences of having one standard for yourself, and another for someone you simply don't like. Come on, be bigger than that.

 

[Lisa]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-LISA DENEKA
-MT Moderator-

 

[Grenadier]

Based on these rules of Hunter Safety, Cheney is at fault. "Big Time".

Michael, I'm going to explain the situation in a simpler sense, and if you have any questions on how hunting is conducted, I would certainly be more than happy to discuss this with you, and if you're ever in the Central Alabama area, I would certainly be happy to take you on a trip.

The area was clear, until the other fellow blundered into the area without announcing. If you were a hunter, you would know that birds get flushed out, and once you see them flushed out in the opening, you take the shot. You don't expect someone to pop into your sights when you're in the process of pulling the trigger.

It wouldn't be your fault if someone jumped into your previously clear picture, and unless you had superhuman reflexes, there would have been no way to stop the shot. You can't pin the blame on Cheney, because he did follow proper protocols. The other fellow did not.

It's no different than a pedestrian who jaywalks across a busy street, and gets hit by an oncoming car. The driver wouldn't be at fault, unless the pedestrian were at a designated crosswalk. Even though it's a driver's responsibility to be aware at all times, and that usually the driver is at fault when hitting a pedestrian, this is simply a case where no such fault would be assigned to the driver.

 

[michaeledward]

Grenadier ...

Again, from the Texas Hunter Education web site ...

Be sure you know where your companions are at all times.
​

I have posted the link twice, and the text once. It is simple enough. As I also posted earlier, from the voice of a hunter ... "If you pull the trigger it is not an accident."

 

[Grenadier]

Grenadier ...


Again, from the Texas Hunter Education web site ...

Be sure you know where your companions are at all times.

​

I have posted the link twice, and the text once. It is simple enough.

Please read the articles that were posted. His immediate companions were with him. The other fellow was not part of their direct group, and was on his own.

As I also posted earlier, from the voice of a hunter ... "If you pull the trigger it is not an accident."

If you accept the quote of one hunter as being gospel, then you must be consistent in your thinking. I'll give you a quote from another hunter (me):

If someone blunders into your clearing, and into your line of fire right as you are pulling the trigger, it's not your fault, unless you have superhuman reflexes.

I am finished with this thread, as I have stated the facts, and shown that this accident was not the fault of Cheney. Once again, it's up to you to understand how hunting works, Michael.

My offer still stands; if you want to discuss proper hunting protocols, I am more than happy to do so.

God be with you!

 

[Carol]

Hmmm, if I were a conspiracy theorist, I would wonder exactly what would need to happen for Mr. Cheney to politely step down in to retirement, leaving President Bush with an opportunity to appoint a VP to take the role of his successor for the 2008 elections.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I am finished with this thread, as I have stated the facts, and shown that this accident was not the fault of Cheney. Once again, it's up to you to understand how hunting works, Michael.

My offer still stands; if you want to discuss proper hunting protocols, I am more than happy to do so.

God be with you!

Quite right. I think the point has been made quite clearly.

It would be good if some would remember the standard they are using to judge the momentary actions of others, when they themselves are in similar situations (but that would require fair dealings with the facts).

I, too, am done with this thread. There's really nothing else to say but....Best wishes and warm regards. :asian: