Urinating on corpses

[Bill Mattocks]

I read this article today:

http://www.military.com/news/article/are-atrocities-part-of-war.html?ESRC=topstories.RSS

“You don’t get a pass for acting stupidly because you’ve been in a war,” said retired Army colonel and Medal of Honor recipient Jack Jacobs, today an NBC News consultant and author of the memoir, “If Not Now, When?”. Jacobs recalls that he saw 90 consecutive days of combat during one tour in Vietnam and saw many Americans die. But he says he never crossed the line.

“Anytime someone does something illegal or immoral, he knows it’s the wrong thing to do,” he told Military.com. “Urinating on corpses cannot be ascribed to having too many tours downrange.”

But the bigger issue is the lack of leadership, according to Jacobs. Where, he asked, are the noncommissioned officers, the lieutenants, the company commanders, and the battalion commanders?

Interestingly, Jacobs seems not to be aware of the report that one of the Marines doing the peeing was their unit commander. So apparently, that's where he was; supervising the troops.

Sebastian Junger, author of “War” and co-director -- with the late photojournalist Tim Hetherington of the documentary film “Restrepo,” – said the national response to the controversial photos and videos is “morally hypocritical.”

“If we’re going to be upset at urinating on corpses, we’ve got to have a serious conversation with ourselves about what’s been going on for the last 10 years,” he said. Junger, whose book and film were based on time he spent with an Army platoon at a remote outpost in Afghanistan’s deadly Korengal Valley in 2008 and 2009, chronicled not only the combat but also the sometimes bizarre behavior of the soldiers, which included almost ritual-like beatings of each other.

Over a decade, a great many people have died from American weapons, but the country doesn’t want to face that “on a spiritual level,” Junger said. “But the soldiers have to face it because they’re the ones doing it. And sometimes it makes them act out in all kinds of troubled ways.”

It is kind of a disconnect when you think about it. We order these men to kill; but then to act with respect to the bodies of the people who were just trying to blow them up or shoot them. Our national outrage is not directed at the fact that they killed the men, but that they disrespected their corpses.

But the article also pointed out a link to a 1946 news story:

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/unbound/bookauth/battle/jones.htm

WE Americans have the dangerous tendency in our international thinking to take a holier-than-thou attitude toward other nations. We consider ourselves to be more noble and decent than other peoples, and consequently in a better position to decide what is right and wrong in the world. What kind of war do civilians suppose we fought, anyway? We shot prisoners in cold blood, wiped out hospitals, strafed lifeboats, killed or mistreated enemy civilians, finished off the enemy wounded, tossed the dying into a hole with the dead, and in the Pacific boiled the flesh off enemy skulls to make table ornaments for sweethearts, or carved their bones into letter openers.

Seems times haven't really changed all that much. We civilians ask the military to fight wars, then we complain about the manner in which they do it. We ask them to become savages and then complain that they are indeed savage.

Just some random thoughts on the matter.

 

[ballen0351]

Its stress relief plain and simple. People do strange things in times of stress. No different then say a group of police officers at a fatal accident making a joke and laughing. I remember when i shot a guy my first commwnt after oh beeeeep was look at that group talking about my shot placement. I have no clue why other then trying to break the tension and calm down. When i got back to station my supervisor said if you wanted off tomorrow all you had to do.was ask. Same thing i dont think he knew what to say so a joke was how he reacted to break the stress. That was a short one time incident. These marines are in constant fear and stress for months so more extream behavior is to be expected

 

[granfire]

Considering I crack joke at unopportune times....


However while I get it, I don't think it's an excuse to pi$$ on a dead body. Or cutting ears off, or scalps.


But as civilian, I suppose I have come to trust that the warrior's code is reality, not something that has been established to fix the grim reality.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Considering I crack joke at unopportune times....


However while I get it, I don't think it's an excuse to pi$$ on a dead body. Or cutting ears off, or scalps.


But as civilian, I suppose I have come to trust that the warrior's code is reality, not something that has been established to fix the grim reality.

Yeah, I guess I'm not defending reprehensible behavior or suggesting it should be condoned at all. More like noting the odd relationship between our desire that the military kill in as efficient a manner as possible, and neatly and cleanly if they can manage it; and try not to rub Joe Citizen's face in the fact that war is ugly and brutal and horrible beyond belief.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

What does urinating on a corpse have to do with the objective? What's the justification?

War is brutal. It's supposed to be brutal but if a soldier can't keep his head he's a danger to those he serves with. The intentional disrespect is a form of sadism. I don't care about a pile of meat but the meat wasn't being pee'd on because it was "in the way", it was being pee'd on because the soldier is malicious.

It adds nothing to the effectiveness.

What stops someone like this from rape or murder when supported by his peers?

 

[Flying Crane]

We civilians ask the military to fight wars, then we complain about the manner in which they do it. We ask them to become savages and then complain that they are indeed savage.

Therein lies the rub. THIS civilian did not ask the military to fight a war on my behalf. THIS civilian wishes the civilian government would stop doing so as well.

 

[Tez3]

**** happens, especially in war but the important thing is that these actions aren't accepted by the majority of service people, that it's not condoned by the majority and the majority don't collude in hiding or covering things like this up. The majority do their best, they try to act morally, we can't ask more than that to be honest, that each of us does our best to do the right thing.

 

[billc]

The violation is or was dealt with under the Uniform code of military justice as it should be. It is against our rules of conduct and the guys who did it will be punished. That should be the end of it. The hand wringing by some is silly. Where exactly is the outrage that the dead radical muslim killers were shooting at our marines. I'm not sad those a******s are dead. The monsters we are fighting do not deserve our sympathy, and the only thing that needs to be dealt with is trying to maintain discipline and morale in a combat situation where the enemy does not respect civilians and uses them as tools for their killing.

 

[Tez3]

The violation is or was dealt with under the Uniform code of military justice as it should be. It is against our rules of conduct and the guys who did it will be punished. That should be the end of it. The hand wringing by some is silly. Where exactly is the outrage that the dead radical muslim killers were shooting at our marines. I'm not sad those a******s are dead. The monsters we are fighting do not deserve our sympathy, and the only thing that needs to be dealt with is trying to maintain discipline and morale in a combat situation where the enemy does not respect civilians and uses them as tools for their killing.

I agree totally...good grief I'm now going to lie down!

 

[granfire]

I agree totally...good grief I'm now going to lie down!

Is it armageddon yet?

 

[billc]

I might print that one out and hang it on the wall...

 

[MA-Caver]

Considering I crack joke at unopportune times....


However while I get it, I don't think it's an excuse to pi$$ on a dead body. Or cutting ears off, or scalps.


But as civilian, I suppose I have come to trust that the warrior's code is reality, not something that has been established to fix the grim reality.

I read this article a while ago... big huge stink about it and just to my mind something really shameful for American soldiers to be doing.
I can appreciate the grim realities of combat and "hating the enemy" and all that. But in this enlightened age we are (I hope) still a civilized people. And while war itself is barbaric it can be fought by warriors with a civil code of conduct. It doesn't matter what the "other guy is doing" to the bodies or prisoners it is how American soldiers should act. If they're over there trying to "win the hearts and minds of the people" then desecrating the dead isn't a good way to do it. Kill the enemy, bury the bodies if possible and/or move on to the next objective that gets you one day closer to winning the war or at least until your tour is up and you get sent home. There's nothing humane about war, I know that. But pissing on corpses of the dead or mutilating the bodies or any thing else is just not IMO how American soldiers should act. They're professional soldiers (professional in that they get paid to kill the enemy) and should act like it.

 

[Sukerkin]

I agree totally...good grief I'm now going to lie down!

Seconded.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Considering I crack joke at unopportune times....


However while I get it, I don't think it's an excuse to pi$$ on a dead body. Or cutting ears off, or scalps.


But as civilian, I suppose I have come to trust that the warrior's code is reality, not something that has been established to fix the grim reality.

We will kill you, and disrespect your dead body, messes with the heads of your enemy. Its not like they buried the guy inside a dead pig; mostly because, they didn't have any dead pigs.
Sean

 

[Josh Oakley]

We will kill you, and disrespect your dead body, messes with the heads of your enemy. Its not like they buried the guy inside a dead pig; mostly because, they didn't have any dead pigs.
Sean

And every time some jackass does crap like this, the enemy has been given a powerful recruitment tool, and makes our jobs harder.

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[Touch Of Death]

And every time some jackass does crap like this, the enemy has been given a powerful recruitment tool, and makes our jobs harder.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

Its a vicious circle, but a blip on the screen when compared to decisions made by the higher ups.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Its a vicious circle, but a blip on the screen when compared to decisions made by the higher ups.

Non sequitor, and certainly no excuse.

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