United States Tae Kwon Do Committee?

[miguksaram]

Daniel I would have to dis-agree all the upper people running that org. came from the old USTU org. and that is what they know and do. I believe they are just there trying to line there pockets like they did back in the day of old.

Then your belief is wrong. They have not held any sparring tournaments that would be counter productive to USAT. I would recommend that you contact Pres. Lee and talk to him as I have.

I would love to see a more SD approach to TKD and have been working hard with some for a long time but everytime they come close to making it work the money and who is in charge stos it. I believe there is a burdan on the committee of this org. to really answer and explain what is there sole purpose beside making money? How can they help, when they destroyed everything once before? I will just listen and wait for some answer that do not dance around questions.

Your accusations are based on what? Hear-say or actual interaction with the USTU? Which questions have you asked that people have danced around?

If you want to see a more SD approach to TKD then why aren't you teaching it? I thought we had the discussion before that KKWTKD has a minimum requirement curriculum to obtain rank. School owners are allowed to teach what ever they would like outside of that. I'm sure you have taught your own SD curriculum correct? So why do you feel you need spoonfed SD from KKW?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I appreciate you taking the time to answer, Miguksaram.

I figured out that a patch was not on the list, but I was too late to edit. But come on, you guys need to have a patch. USAT does, so you should to.

Kind of a bummer about just poomsae in competition. I was hoping that maybe the USTC had devised a sparring style that was more representative of taekwondo as an art.

Thanks,

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

I appreciate you taking the time to answer, Miguksaram.

I figured out that a patch was not on the list, but I was too late to edit. But come on, you guys need to have a patch. USAT does, so you should to.

Kind of a bummer about just poomsae in competition. I was hoping that maybe the USTC had devised a sparring style that was more representative of taekwondo as an art.

Thanks,

Daniel

Understand that when it comes to competition they are mostly concerned with poomsae. However, this doesn't mean that schools under the USTC don't fight. What can of sparring would you consider representative of TKD as an art?

Also keep in mind that that is just the beginning. Who knows where this may or may not lead. Perhaps your hopes and wishes will come true.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If you want to see a more SD approach to TKD then why aren't you teaching it?

I'm pretty sure that he already does.

I thought we had the discussion before that KKWTKD has a minimum requirement curriculum to obtain rank. School owners are allowed to teach what ever they would like outside of that. I'm sure you have taught your own SD curriculum correct? So why do you feel you need spoonfed SD from KKW?

I don't think that its about Terry wanting to be spoonfed SD from the KKW, but about all taekwondoin benifiting from the SD aspect that is already built into taekwondo, but not promoted for the most part.

The Kukkiwon has created an environment where SD is really on the back burner. The money just isn't in it, so that isn't where they focus.

KKW promotion of a solid SD curriculum would benefit practitioners world wide, and would certainly weed out the creation of more schools that hide behind the sport and simply tell their students that WTF sparring is SD.

It is this sort of thing that a USTC-like body could address.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Understand that when it comes to competition they are mostly concerned with poomsae. However, this doesn't mean that schools under the USTC don't fight.

Not at all what I thought. I think that there are a good number of KKW schools that can fight, but the sparring/competition rules that the WTF has put together and which the Kukkiwon promotes do not reflect this.

What can of sparring would you consider representative of TKD as an art?

Sparring/competition that would reflect the full art would include the scoring of punches for starters, but would also allow for hand techniques other than just straight punches.

Allow punches to the head and require the appropriate gloves. It isn't as if both participants aren't already wearing headgear.

Eliminate the head as a valueable target. Make it one point instead of three, make torso shots two points.

Allow kicks to be above the knees instead of just above the waist minus the groin. Allow knee and elbow blows to the torso.

Throw in some sweeps and takedowns. No groundwork; just drop the opponent, deliver a decisive blow, then give them space and time to get back up.

The matches would be more exciting, they'd reflect a fighting art, rather than a kicking game, and Taekwondo would gain some serious momentum, as you'd attract a lot of people who are put off by the current state of the art.

Also keep in mind that that is just the beginning. Who knows where this may or may not lead. Perhaps your hopes and wishes will come true.

Twould be nice. I maintain more of a wait and see attitude about any new org, so if it comes to pass, I won't miss it.

Honestly, I would prefer a separate org that isn't beholden to the Kukkiwon. Policing taekwondo in the US is a lot easier than it is for the KKW to police it worldwide. Perhaps operate as an affilate rather than as a tunnel? You'd have greater autonomy and could establish a central location in the US for dan grades above second.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

Then your belief is wrong. They have not held any sparring tournaments that would be counter productive to USAT. I would recommend that you contact Pres. Lee and talk to him as I have.



Your accusations are based on what? Hear-say or actual interaction with the USTU? Which questions have you asked that people have danced around?

If you want to see a more SD approach to TKD then why aren't you teaching it? I thought we had the discussion before that KKWTKD has a minimum requirement curriculum to obtain rank. School owners are allowed to teach what ever they would like outside of that. I'm sure you have taught your own SD curriculum correct? So why do you feel you need spoonfed SD from KKW?

Ok here goes again I have had no direct dealing with the USTC but I do remember what happehed to the USTU and how they same people handle that.

As far as my SD approach it is tought everyday not the KKW way because they really do not have one but my way and my old instructor ways.... hurt them and then hurt them some more.


I do appreciaet you taking the time to answer question and believe me I am in no way an autority about your org., I am like alot of folks courious about the true mission bhind it and what it can do for the betterment of TKD.:asian:

 

[miguksaram]

I'm pretty sure that he already does.

I don't think that its about Terry wanting to be spoonfed SD from the KKW, but about all taekwondoin benifiting from the SD aspect that is already built into taekwondo, but not promoted for the most part.

The Kukkiwon has created an environment where SD is really on the back burner. The money just isn't in it, so that isn't where they focus.

KKW promotion of a solid SD curriculum would benefit practitioners world wide, and would certainly weed out the creation of more schools that hide behind the sport and simply tell their students that WTF sparring is SD.

It is this sort of thing that a USTC-like body could address.

Daniel

While in theory I would agree with you, however I don't feel it is practical. First of all what I would consider viable SD may not be what you consider viable SD. If I gave you a set of moves that had to be followed, they may work for someone my height and structrue, but what about someone smaller or taller than me? However, poomsae can be executed in the same manner no matter what size or shape.

I know Terry is experienced enough that he doesn't need to be spoonfed anything.

Now to go back to your original question you asked me about what does USTC have to offer I give you this reply from Mst. Harris who is one of the VP's:

Hi Jeremy,

Good question about the membership. That is an issue that is currently being discussed among the officers. It is also a topic that we will be discussing at the USTC Planning Meeting in Chicago on Sunday evening following the Hanmadang Referee Seminar. (Are you participating in that, by the way?)So, rather than try to give a "company" answer right now, I would rather wait until we get feedback from others and we actually decide what to implement as far as membership is concerned.

I know this doesn't really give you a direct answer but I wanted you to know that it was a subject that is high on the priority list. I am hoping to make this meeting. It happens to be my 15th wedding anniversary weekend so I am not sure if I will be able to make it or not. However, if I do, I will be bringing up topics like this as well as topics about SD curriculum. Why? Well even though I may not think it is practical, doesn't mean others like yourself agree.

 

[miguksaram]

Not at all what I thought. I think that there are a good number of KKW schools that can fight, but the sparring/competition rules that the WTF has put together and which the Kukkiwon promotes do not reflect this.

Sparring/competition that would reflect the full art would include the scoring of punches for starters, but would also allow for hand techniques other than just straight punches.

Allow punches to the head and require the appropriate gloves. It isn't as if both participants aren't already wearing headgear.

Eliminate the head as a valueable target. Make it one point instead of three, make torso shots two points.

Allow kicks to be above the knees instead of just above the waist minus the groin. Allow knee and elbow blows to the torso.

Throw in some sweeps and takedowns. No groundwork; just drop the opponent, deliver a decisive blow, then give them space and time to get back up.

The matches would be more exciting, they'd reflect a fighting art, rather than a kicking game, and Taekwondo would gain some serious momentum, as you'd attract a lot of people who are put off by the current state of the art.

Sounds more like a Muy Thai boxing match or a San Shou match you are talking about. I honestly don't think those types of strikes will ever happen simply because they would end up losing their olympic status.

Twould be nice. I maintain more of a wait and see attitude about any new org, so if it comes to pass, I won't miss it.

Honestly, I would prefer a separate org that isn't beholden to the Kukkiwon. Policing taekwondo in the US is a lot easier than it is for the KKW to police it worldwide. Perhaps operate as an affilate rather than as a tunnel? You'd have greater autonomy and could establish a central location in the US for dan grades above second.

The wait and see attitude is understandable. In this day and age of fly by night orgs I can understand anyone's hesitation. I just maintain that someone keep on open mind and not prejudge it based on hear-say or opinoins derived from sources who heard it from other sources who weren't even there.

I would be hesitant as well if I didn't speak with the people directly. Perhaps they are charismatic enough to BS me with false goals that they set. If they are, then I'll be the first to admit I was an idiot for believing them.

 

[miguksaram]

Ok here goes again I have had no direct dealing with the USTC but I do remember what happehed to the USTU and how they same people handle that.

As far as my SD approach it is tought everyday not the KKW way because they really do not have one but my way and my old instructor ways.... hurt them and then hurt them some more.


I do appreciaet you taking the time to answer question and believe me I am in no way an autority about your org., I am like alot of folks courious about the true mission bhind it and what it can do for the betterment of TKD.:asian:

Terry, I apologize if I came off agressive to your questions...not my intent. That is the bad part of forums, the message will read according to the mood you are in.

In regards, to the SD you teach, you varified a point that I was trying to make. You have SD that works perfectly for you and you can adjust it so that it can work for all your students. If KKW was to provide a curriculum, it may not work for everyone and may or may not be "practical". Your students would have to execute it according to how it is structured, with no variations allowed. So why leave that aspect of promotion up to them?

The problem with everyone judging USTC based on what happened with USTU is that 90% of the people don't know what the full truth is behind the ousting of USTU. They don't know the politics and back stabbin that took place during that whole mess. This is why I keep asking the question over and over....did you have direct dealings with USTU to where you were cheated by them or are you just going by what you read or heard?

I will continue to do my best to address any questions asked. Anything I don't know I'll ask the higher ups. Now my question to everyone is what would they like to see in an US org that is connected with the KKW? What benefits would you like to see available, etc.? I am going to try to attend the meeting in April so this would be a good opportunity to let the voices of the people heard.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sounds more like a Muy Thai boxing match or a San Shou match you are talking about.

Actually, it sounds like taekwondo. Olympic TKD is what doesn't look like taekwondo. The entire Kukkiwon curriculum mitigates against anything that even resembles Olympic TKD.

I honestly don't think those types of strikes will ever happen simply because they would end up losing their olympic status.

Concern about olympic status has done nothing but hurt and damage taekwondo, both as an art and its reputation. The IOC is probably the most corrupt body in existence. Grafting taekwondo to it benefits only those with a financial stake. It has been a disservice to students worldwide and has truly dumbed down the art.

Strong words, I know. But taekwondo did just fine without olympic involvement. Nothing about the addition of taekwondo to the olympics in 1988 has been of any benefit to the art or its practitioners.

The wait and see attitude is understandable. In this day and age of fly by night orgs I can understand anyone's hesitation. I just maintain that someone keep on open mind and not prejudge it based on hear-say or opinoins derived from sources who heard it from other sources who weren't even there.

I would be hesitant as well if I didn't speak with the people directly. Perhaps they are charismatic enough to BS me with false goals that they set. If they are, then I'll be the first to admit I was an idiot for believing them.

Any new organization deserves a chance to prove itself. Even if its made up of the usual suspects. Sometimes, the same group of people finally figure out that they need to do something different. People grow, mature and change, so the old guard forming a new org should be given the same opportunity to do so as anyone else.

Honestly, from the website, there's a lot to like. I'd just have preferred them to take it a step further and divorce themselves from the KKW. Then they could be whatever it is that they intend to be without any direction from a preexisting org. No olympic aspirations is a huge selling point to me, but the KKW attachment means that as the KKW is influenced by the IOC, their policy changes become your policy changes.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

Concern about olympic status has done nothing but hurt and damage taekwondo, both as an art and its reputation. The IOC is probably the most corrupt body in existence. Grafting taekwondo to it benefits only those with a financial stake. It has been a disservice to students worldwide and has truly dumbed down the art.

You will get no argument from me on this one. That was one of the main things that attracted me to the org. It was looking to move away from olympic aspirations. I understand the original intent of KKW wanting to get TKD into the olympics...Having something that was a Korean art in the olympics is honor to them. However, the result was that there was indeed sacrificing in some of the quality. I think KKW is slowly coming around to seeing that, which is why they seem to be supportive of the USTC and their goals.

 

[terryl965]

Terry, I apologize if I came off agressive to your questions...not my intent. That is the bad part of forums, the message will read according to the mood you are in.

In regards, to the SD you teach, you varified a point that I was trying to make. You have SD that works perfectly for you and you can adjust it so that it can work for all your students. If KKW was to provide a curriculum, it may not work for everyone and may or may not be "practical". Your students would have to execute it according to how it is structured, with no variations allowed. So why leave that aspect of promotion up to them?

The problem with everyone judging USTC based on what happened with USTU is that 90% of the people don't know what the full truth is behind the ousting of USTU. They don't know the politics and back stabbin that took place during that whole mess. This is why I keep asking the question over and over....did you have direct dealings with USTU to where you were cheated by them or are you just going by what you read or heard?

I will continue to do my best to address any questions asked. Anything I don't know I'll ask the higher ups. Now my question to everyone is what would they like to see in an US org that is connected with the KKW? What benefits would you like to see available, etc.? I am going to try to attend the meeting in April so this would be a good opportunity to let the voices of the people heard.

Yes I was a victim of certain things like my certificate as a referee and my promotion that never happened but that is another story. What I will ask is how is the USTC different and what can it do for me that was not done by the USTU? You can send it by a PM if you like.

 

[miguksaram]

Yes I was a victim of certain things like my certificate as a referee and my promotion that never happened but that is another story. What I will ask is how is the USTC different and what can it do for me that was not done by the USTU? You can send it by a PM if you like.

Can you PM me about the cert and promotion. I am interested in finding out who held that up on you. As for your question, please allow me to get back with you on that question. I will ask that at the meeting. My off the cuff answer would be that USTC will not have to worry about IOC BS and politics like the USTU did. They will be working directly with the world governing body of TKD (well KKWTKD), where as USTU had to adhere to what was being sent down through WTF, IOC and USOC. Again...that is just my off the cuff answer.

 

[terryl965]

I will wait for your reply.

 

[miguksaram]

I will wait for your reply.

Well the meeting has come and gone. I have mix feelings on how it went in all. I will briefly give you a summary of the evening's event. After eating we had a slide presentation on the state of affairs. We were told of the financial situation on what was made and what wasy spent. I was very impressed that they were so forth coming with the information.

I forgot who mentioned that the USTC owed money to KKW for the World Hanmadang, but they were correct. It was not the huge amount that they mentioned, but it was significant. However after the seminars that they hosted and with personal donations from the officers themselves they have managed to obliterate that debt almost completely (I believe they have about $2000 left). I would say the referee seminar was about 90% successful (meaning they had enough to just break even on event).

Now, somethings you may or may not already know. The organization is registered as a non-profit organization in the state of Colorado and is working on a 501c(3) on a nation wide basis. The USTC is NOT a sports organization. Their purpose is for support of traditional martial arts of taekwondo. They are in line with KKW in terms of ranking and form structures.

Now the big question...why should I join? What's in it for me? This is where my mixed feelings came in as we did not really derive in any absolutes in this area. I brought this topic to light with your sentiments being expressed. Things that I expressed is that we need to look more into self defense curriculums, boon hae curriculums. Things of that nature to provide members or school members. Things that we are working on is access to seminars for referees for poomsae as well as, if it works out, access to KKW certifications courses in USA. So again, I got a feel for what we could offer, but still did not leave with any absolutes.

Any suggestions of what you would like to have as a member or what you would like to see offered that would help motivate you to join, would be appreciated. This organization is still new but moving in strides. Within the year and a half it has hosted the World Hanmadang, Hanmadang referee training, School training to help boost memberships, Masters Trip to Korea, a second Referee training and refresher course for poomsae and soon the 1st US Open/US National Hanmadang.

 

[Kwan Jang]

The reason I started this thread was I recieved an e-mail from my instructor. He was asked to give a talk about keeping the integrity of the art intact and raising the standards of the martial arts while operating a financially successful school at the same time. After his talk, the President of the USTC, GM Sang Lee asked him to become VP of the org. I found this a little surprising especially considering that, though our schools come from TKD roots and my instructor was a medal winner at the world championships back in '77, our schools are MMA now. The fact that GM Lee wanted him in this position because of his stand on quality and integrity in the arts and what was on the USTC website about the direction they want to pursue in TKD made me take notice. Though I have cross trained in muay thai, JJ and the FMA's for decades now, I have a special place in my heart for TKD and have seen it (IMO) go off track for a long time. I would love to see a significant move in the right direction by a large group of it's leaders.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The USTC is NOT a sports organization. Their purpose is for support of traditional martial arts of taekwondo. They are in line with KKW in terms of ranking and form structures.

Now the big question...why should I join? What's in it for me? This is where my mixed feelings came in as we did not really derive in any absolutes in this area. I brought this topic to light with your sentiments being expressed. Things that I expressed is that we need to look more into self defense curriculums, boon hae curriculums. Things of that nature to provide members or school members. Things that we are working on is access to seminars for referees for poomsae as well as, if it works out, access to KKW certifications courses in USA. So again, I got a feel for what we could offer, but still did not leave with any absolutes.

Any suggestions of what you would like to have as a member or what you would like to see offered that would help motivate you to join, would be appreciated.

To a great extent, outside of networking, there does not seem to be any great advantage to joining. After all, I can run a quality school and stay away from sports just by sticking with the KKW and following the KKW curriculum.

Suggestions to change that?

Major focus on self defense and actual fighting rather than sports would be good, though that may already be there.

Instructor certifications that do not require going to Korea.

Break with the KKW and start fresh as a US organization servicing US schools and instructors. By doing this, you can police the member schools more effectively and put steps in place to curtail McDojos or the promotion of unqualified instructors.

I do not suggest breaking with the KKW out of any disrespect to the KKW; it is simply silly in my opinion to ask people to be part of your org and tell them that they need to be a part of someone else's for purposes of rank.

Eliminate kiddie black belts.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

The reason I started this thread was I recieved an e-mail from my instructor. He was asked to give a talk about keeping the integrity of the art intact and raising the standards of the martial arts while operating a financially successful school at the same time. After his talk, the President of the USTC, GM Sang Lee asked him to become VP of the org. I found this a little surprising especially considering that, though our schools come from TKD roots and my instructor was a medal winner at the world championships back in '77, our schools are MMA now. The fact that GM Lee wanted him in this position because of his stand on quality and integrity in the arts and what was on the USTC website about the direction they want to pursue in TKD made me take notice. Though I have cross trained in muay thai, JJ and the FMA's for decades now, I have a special place in my heart for TKD and have seen it (IMO) go off track for a long time. I would love to see a significant move in the right direction by a large group of it's leaders.

Yes, Pres. Lee wants that type of drive in people. People who want the best for martial arts for ALL participants not just the lucky few who are olympic caliber. I have not been involved formally in TKD since 2003, but because of my love for the Korean culture and its aspects in KMA I was asked to come onboard.

 

[miguksaram]

To a great extent, outside of networking, there does not seem to be any great advantage to joining. After all, I can run a quality school and stay away from sports just by sticking with the KKW and following the KKW curriculum.
Suggestions to change that?

Not as of yet. Your concerns are the same as mine and that is what I'm still working on getting answers to. I am a member simply because I "drank the kool aid", meaning that I had a chance to talk with Pres. Lee directly and understand his vision enough to know I wanted to be a part of it, but that is just me as an individual.

Why should a school owner join? What is in it for their school and students? I wish I had an answer for that. That is what is frustrating me right now.

Major focus on self defense and actual fighting rather than sports would be good, though that may already be there.

Instructor certifications that do not require going to Korea.

Break with the KKW and start fresh as a US organization servicing US schools and instructors. By doing this, you can police the member schools more effectively and put steps in place to curtail McDojos or the promotion of unqualified instructors.

I do not suggest breaking with the KKW out of any disrespect to the KKW; it is simply silly in my opinion to ask people to be part of your org and tell them that they need to be a part of someone else's for purposes of rank.

Eliminate kiddie black belts.

Daniel

We are currently working with KKW in getting instructor certification which doesn't require going to KKW. Breaking away completely from KKW is not going to happen. However, I agree with policing a bit more on schools that are part of the organization. Just how to do that would be the question.